Hello everyone,

I am a new member, but I've been reading this site for about 6 months. Just finished SAA, and am ordering His Needs, Her Needs.

A little background: I have busted my wife twice in the past year. She started having an affair last February 2003. I first discovered it in June 2003. She said it was over, and I forgave her. We continued on with our life. At this point I didn't know about Marriagebuilders, and just trusted that she had indeed ended the affair. Life went on as normal. She stopped going out and there was no other unusual behavior. Except for a second cell phone she had that she claimed her girlfriend had given her. Again I trusted her and tried to move on with no counseling or marriagebuilders. Well starting this year, in January I caught her in a couple of lies & began to suspect. In February 2004, I checked her 2nd cell & found a phone# I didn't regognized. I called it & got the name of a man I did not know. Then I found 2 suspicious text messages. Then I called the wireless company & found out that the 2nd cell phone was in my wife's name all along (not in her friend's name as she had told me). With this info, I confronted her the day before my birthday & 2 days before our 10th wedding anniversary. She admitted that the affair was still in force & she admitted that she thought she was in love with him!! I was crushed. By this time I had been visiting MB for several months & I asked her to end it. On my b-day, she called him with me present & said it was over.

It gets better...the same week I re-discovered her ongoing affair, her aunt in the Phillipines had a stoke & died. We took off to the Phillipines to pay our last respects. The entire week, she kept apologizing & saying she wanted to work on "us." I came back to the USA with high hopes that we would work things out. I am a very forgiving person and want more than anything to stay married even though my wife has lied & deceived me for a year now. Now it's mid-March & she drops the bomb: She's not sure if she loves me anymore; she's not sure if she's going to be happy in this marriage anymore AND she wants to separate!! She says she needs time to think. She needs time away to let things settle. She left home for a week & came back home on March 22, 2004. We have been living like strangers for the past 3 weeks.

Question: I've agreed to let her move out, but I'm afraid she may never come back. She has said she is willing to set up a schedule to see the kids & set up a budget so that no one struggles. She has said she wants to take the separation one month at a time...How do I let go? How do I stop smuthering her for answers? Will the separation help?

After reading SAA, it sounds like my wife has the classic symptoms of the "soul-mate" affair. Since most affairs die a natural death, is it possible a few months away will straighten her out? I am having a hard time letting go....need advice!! Thanks

ceez71 I am currently in this situation except my WW is living with the OM. This is a tuff one because the only thing I have going for me is time all I can do is wait it out. You can't force her to stay, I know this I loved my W so much I had to let her go but of course the big lie was that she was staying with a girlfriend I did some investigating and found her living at OM apt. anyways even though it was killing me inside I had to let her go. People here will give better advice then me so hang in there. You might want to look into counseling with SH to see what he says.

ceez, I am sorry you are here but at least you made it to the right place.

Separation is always hard, but usually the WS wants to separate for one reason and one reason only: to enable impeded contact with the OP. They never admit this, but this is always what happens. They use excuses like "need to clear my head," "need to think, " blah, blah, blah. It is a ruse designed to keep them in your good graces while they carry on the affair.

It sounds like she does love you, but has been on the fence for some time. When they are on the fence like this, the next best step is Plan B. And it sounds to me like this is the place you are at. You have done a good Plan A from the sounds of it, but it has not worked thus far.

So my suggestion is 2 fold: start thinking about Plan B and make sure that you execute a FLAWLESS Plan A until/if you make that move. You need to make sure to leave a real good taste in her mouth before you move to Plan B. If you go into Plan B, wait until she moves and deliver her a Plan B letter.

Secondly, I would strongly suggest calling Steve Harley for counseling. He can assess your situation and put you on the right path. They are superb marriage counselors that specialize in infidelity.

Also, who is the OM? Is he married? Have you exposed this affair to the world? The greater the exposure, the faster the death of the affair.

Thank you both for your responses.

A little more background. We have been married for 10 years & together for 14 yrs. We have had a terrific marriage with no major issues. We are best of friends. We spend a lot of time togther. We are very considerate of each other and we are both God-fearing Christians. That's why this affair is so painful. My wife has always been trustworthy, strong, loving and this is soooo out of character for her. Because of our closeness, it is extremely difficult to let go. She says she needs space. She doesn't want to talk to "it" everyday, and I don't blame her bec I don't want to talk about it everyday either.

I have made great efforts in the last 2 weeks to leave her alone. That means no phone calls or e-mail during the day (we work for the same firm). And after work I don't call her either. She says she doesn't want to be accountable to me right now & just needs space & time. But I have slipped a few times. How can she expect me to stay at home while she is out all night doing who-knows what & then not expect me to ask a few questions? I would feel better about letting her move out & leaving her alone if she just answered some questions. Like, when did she start falling out of love? What she plans to gain by moving out?

How do I give her her space? She still loves me, I know it. She is very miserable right now. Most of her family knows of the affair (brothers, sister & mother, and even our 16 yr old son knows). So I know the affair is on the rocks. As a matter of fact, I found a break up letter in her purse addressed to the other man, that it was clear to her that their relationaship was over. She went on to say that she was leaving me for all the wrog reasons. She also admitted to OM that I had always been supportive of her & always did whatever I could to make her happy. But this guy has such a strong hold on her....what do I do?

ceez,
I wouldn't tolerate having my spouse run around all night and rub my nose in the affair. That is where you have to draw a line in the sand. That is destructive to you and your children to watch her carry on that way.

There are NO CIRCUMSTANCES where you should tolerate such behavior. You should be doing much more than "asking questions" when she stays out all night. To do otherwise is tantamount to CONDONING her affair.

If she wants her space to run around all night and carry on an affair, I would give her that space and help her get her own apartment. But I would not tolerate that behavior from your home. I would let her know that her actions are hurting you and the kids and that she needs to quit them if she is going to stay there. That will wake her up a bit.

Don't let her run over you, ceez, women don't respect men they can bully. She will not stop unless you give her motivation to stop. Don't acceded to her wishes to act like a teenager in heat with no consequences. That helps NO ONE. She can't expect to run around all night and then never be questioned or confronted about it. To do so is to ENABLE HER bad behavior and sends a horrible message to your children.

I don't believe that the affair is over, ceez. She may have considered ending it, but all the signs of a full blown affair are right there. Nor do I think she would want to move if the affair was over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ceez71:
<strong>
How can she expect me to stay at home while she is out all night doing who-knows what & then not expect me to ask a few questions?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she can get away with it, why not? She does it because she wants her cake and wants to eat it too. Who wouldn't want to run around all night and then demand no consequences? As long as she can get away with this, she will continue to take advantage of you. This should not be allowed to continue, ceez. You are only HELPING her destroy herself, you and your children. There is no virtue in that.

MelodyLane,

Okay, I know what you are saying. I realized last night that I'm allowing her to walk all over me. I've been too nice & the irony is that I'm the victim here & yet I'm the one begging her to stay!! Although she has shown remorse & has apologized over & over, she does not want to resolve anything right now. She says a reconciliation is a possibility, but not right now....she keeps telling everyone she needs time. Our story is very similar to the "soul-mate affair" story in SAA. I think my best chance is time. I think she should move out, we'll set-up a visitation schedule & budget, and give her her time. But then I cannot keeps tabs are her right? How does that sound to you, Melody?

ceez, that is what I would suggest you do. And no, you won't HAVE TO keep tabs on her when she moves out. You would move into Plan B and end all contact with her after you give her a Plan B letter.

A Plan B letter is an essential step in this process. It is basically a love letter that tells her that you love her but that her destructive actions are destroying the love you have for her. You then give her a PATH back to to the marriage. Tell her that when she ends contact with the OM and is ready to commit to the marriage, to contact you and you can discuss reconciliation.

From here on out, ceez, YOU set the terms and take control of this situation. If she wants back in, she would have to DEMONSTRATE to you that her contact has ended.

This is a hard step to take, ceez. You will initially miss her very much, but after a couple of weeks, you will start to feel some peace and some sanity. It will help your frame of mind and decision-making abilities immensely to be removed and detached from the situation. As it is now, you are probably paralyzed with pain.

Ceez, what Plan B does is allows you to detach from the situation. Another potential benefit is that it pulls her off this fence she is on. See, when she is getting her needs met by TWO men, she has NO MOTIVATION to end the affair. What woman in her right mind would give that up!

When you end contact with her, it allows her to quickly see that the OM can't possibly meet her needs. It is often a much needed wake up call that serves to throw water on the affair.

Melody,

Shouldn't plan A normally be in effect for up to 6 months? I just don't want to be too hasty, but at the same time I want to put my foot down. It's only been 3 weeks since she disclosed she wanted to move out. But then again, the affair has been in effect for a year & twice she's lied saying it was over.

I've been reading another marriage book called "Should I stay or go." The author does recommend what she called a "Controlled Separation." A couple separates but follows 12 strict guidelines to make sure there is some structure, an end & some hope. For example, the couple should agree as to the legnth of the separation, a financial budget, visitaion & a bunch of other guidelines like dating each other or others. Each has to agree to & sign the contract. Another guideline is that neither will file for divorce during the separation. Should I allow her to move out with very very limited contact before I move to not speaking to her at all?

Ceez, it sounds to me like this has been going on for a long time, and you have been practicing the principles of Plan A all along. Plan A is destructive when it is practiced too long. She has now moved into a very destructive phase that is hurting herself and your family. Since she wants to move, I think it is an ideal time to implement Plan B.

I completely disagree with setting separation guidelines and think that the Marriage Builder principles of Plan B are much more effective and realistic.

Setting a time limit practically condones the affair and pretends that the separation is anything BUT a gesture designed to enable the affair. I WOULD however, set guidelines for visitation and finances. Hopefully, you will take steps to protect yourself financially and ensure that SHE pays for her apt and extended living expenses. That expense should not come from you.

Signing a contract also gives her PROTECTION that almost ensures that the affair will last longer becuase she can be ASSURED you will sit on the side lines waiting for her while she carries on. As long as she is assured of that, she can continue the affair indefinitely and has no motivation to quit.

Melody,

Where can I find a sample Plan B letter? Can I do it in person, verbally?

But you're right. From June 2003 to Fenruary 2004 I have done nothing but love, support & trust her. I have tried to meet her emtional needs (although we've never done the questionaire, but I think I know some of them) and have even given her some of the same freedoms she enjoyed last year. And all that time that I thought we were rebuilding our marriage, she was still engaged in this affair. The OM is married & has 3 children!! I am unable to contact the other spouse bec I don't know where they live. All I have is his cell phone#. But enough friends & family members know & that is making her miserable.

Is it possible she's fallin out of love with me? Bec recently she seems to be implying that the affair did not change her feelings. In other words, she was all ready out of love with me before the affair started. I don't buy it though. I know she loves me. She's just clouded by this OM. I suspect that once the affair ends she will come back bec we had such a great marriage...the envy of everyone.

Ceez,

No Plan A does NOT have to be 6 months. It can be a week, a month, many months,what determines plan A to plan B change over is if you are losing love for her AND/OR she is sitting on the fence. You have known about this A a long time. From the sounds of it you have been in Plan A for a long time, a very long time.

Listen to Melody, plan B is for you, and since she is willing to move out, this means you don't lose contact with your children. Give her the letter, and move to plan B now. I will say this to you for several reasons. You have an older child he/she will need to see that you do have boundaries. Second, if you just give her the letter one day, it will shock her. She will be hurt and she will run to OM. He will have to deal with ALL of her issues and problems. She will have to face that she will LOSE YOU, if she doesn't change. She will have to face that she will LOSE the respect of her children.

Get the letter together, there are examples on this site. Post it and people will edit it for you, and then get ready to go. She won't change if NOTHING changes. She has proved this by continuing the A after discovery. She is one very cold hearted woman Ceez, and you loving her as you have has only enabled her.

Time for a change of tactic. Listen to Melody and she will guide you through this.

God Bless,

JL

Melody & JL,

Thanks again for your input. It's been enormously helpful. I'm pretty sure what I need to do now. I just have to write the letter & muster up a lot of courage. This is a HUGE HUGE step for me bec all this time & I have discouraged a separation hoping that my love & forgiveness would change her mind but apparently not. There really is nothing else I can do to show her I love...damn, even after I found out the 2nd time I still hopped on a plane & flew 8000 miles to be with her in her time of grief.

Can there be any contact at all during Plan B? Say just for things regarding the children, home & finances? How long does Plan B last?

Ceez,

Please read the articles on Plan B. But, Plan B lasts until the A is over, she decides to divorce you, or until you decide to move on. There is NO set time. Please recall the purpose of plan B is to preserve your love for you W as long as you can. But,if the A continues, even if you go to plan B gradually your love bank will slowly empty. If she does not come out of the "fog" soon enough she will lose YOU. It is a risk she has been and is willing to take.

As for contact, what is recommended is that where there are children that there be an intermediary to handle communications and perhaps even exchanges. You mentioned yours were older or at least some of them are. This means they can handle some of this themselves. You want the very minimum of contact. You want to withdraw your support of her emotionally and verbally as much as possible. Contact with her will hurt you, to preserve your LB you need to be hurt as little as possible.

You are concerned about this move. You should be, it is a difficult move, but as you already stated your current approach has not worked. Also when you do go to plan B she will be mad, very mad. WHy? Because she wants her cake and wants to eat it as well, and you are removing the cake. She won't like the change one bit.

THe good news for you is that she wants to separate, and in this you can say you are agreeing with her approach but you are adding that YOU want no contact with her until the A is over.

So read up, I know Chris123 had a list of Plan B letters. You might also find them in the Just Found Out section under Onegoing's posts that are usually at the top. If not there look in the Plan A/B section and the moderator there may have a book mark to the post that has some of them.

Do your homework, set your sights on doing this, and realize that what you have done has probably planted seeds in your W that you do truely love her and want her in your life, but she won't pay much attention until you are out of her life via Plan B.

Then reality starts to hit. The A has been exposed, you have plan A'd. You have taken her back once only to be deceived and betrayed more. It is time, Ceez. It is a hard step but it is time.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It is important to do Plan B while your love bank for her is still pretty high. ONce you run out of love for her, even if she came back you might not be able to do the hard work it takes to rebuild the marriage. Most go to Plan B too late. Go while you have a strong love for her.

JL,

Since we have not set a move date yet, I wanted to ask her to leave in the next day or two. Would that be okay? Last night, she unexpectedly left to stay at her brother's house. So my plan is to ask her to leave by say Wed April 7 and suggest she stay with her brother until she finds a place. So in the next day or two we can have our final contact to settle finances & visitation of the kids...does that sound okay?

JL, Melody,

Another question: should I talk it over with my 16 year son first? My WW actaully wanted to move about 3 weeks ago, but decided to stay bec of him. But since then, she has still planned on moving out. I just want to touch basis with him so he doesn't think I'm breaking up the family, although he knows full well what his mother has been up to....thought??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ceez71:
<strong> JL,

Since we have not set a move date yet, I wanted to ask her to leave in the next day or two. Would that be okay? Last night, she unexpectedly left to stay at her brother's house. So my plan is to ask her to leave by say Wed April 7 and suggest she stay with her brother until she finds a place. So in the next day or two we can have our final contact to settle finances & visitation of the kids...does that sound okay? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ceez, that sounds like it would work. I would first get her moved out and then we can work on a Plan B letter this week. Do a search on this forum for Plan B letters so you can get an idea of an outline. Then post it before you give it to her so we can give you feedback. We have some Plan B pros on this forum and they can be of great help in this area.

Maybe you should hold off talking to your boy until final plans have been made? Poor guy!

ceez, here is a good thread about Plan B that also has some letters you can consider.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=30&t=000177

Melody,

Well, I think I may be in plan B now. Yesterday afternoon, my WW called to talk. I told her that I finally agreed that our current living arrangements were not working & that I was beginning to lose love for her. I told her how much I loved her & that I felt I had tried my very best to resolve this mess. But that I could no longer live like strangers. I asked her to move out this week & stay at her brother's home until she could find her own place. I also told her that I wanted no contact with her except for discussing the kids, home & finances. She then asked if we could still have our friendship & I said "no" not until the OP was completely out of the picture. She then began to cry & ask for forgiveness. I think she was shocked bec that is unlike me to be that direct & bold...we hung up.

Later that night around 9pm she came home. I was in my younger son's room as I had planned on sleeping there. She came to my bedside laid her head on my chest & cried for about 15 minutes straight. Again she reiterated how sorry she was, how she just needed a little time, and that she wasn't giving up on our marraige. Once she stopped crying, she asked me how I felt and I answered that I felt relieved. She asked if I was relieved bec she was home, and I answered no I was relieved that she was leaving. She began to cry again. I told her I said that bec we both needed time. I think for the first time she realized she could lose me & the kids. She than packed a few things & left for her brother's home. I didn't say good-bye nor walk her to the door....was I too hasty? Should I have used the letter?

I could not fall asleep bec of the excitement I felt that I had finally taken a stand. I finally took some control. My wife is a very strong woman who never stands down to anyone, so it was quite an experience to see her so humbled. I felt good about what I had done, although it was hard, but I think she got the message. I feel very hopeful that we will come around soon. She offered to come home today to go grocery shopping & cook dinner (something she hasn't done in months!!), so that was another good sign. But we'll see. I don't want to get my hopes up....any thoughts? Did I do the right thing?