Kiwi!!! ...don't feel ignored! or rather, just let it run off you like water off a duck's back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> sometimes people don't mention your post but don't take it personally...lots of people like hearing from you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I'll add a longer response in support of WOE's observations (and now Cali's too!): thank your H for asking you, for being honest that it still hurts him, that he feels worried and scared...trust in the fact that he loves you, you scare him because he is so vulnerable to you...

see it as a team effort (protection of M) rather than checking up on you (insult to your integrity)...make it a joke...check up on him! and actually, it is NO joke...you should...

so often WS see this checking as "punishment"...when it is not that at all...

it is all about learning new behaviour to protect your marriage...

actually, here's a story that may help you to change your perspective: I explained this concept to my H the other day...you should have seen the shock on his face! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> he said: what do you mean? are you saying that I can't trust YOU??? but you would NEVER do this to me, you are way too honest and such a good person...you love me so much!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and I replied: yup...you should never trust me either...we're both vulnerable and need to ensure that our marriage is protected at all costs...we don't want to endanger it ever again...neither of us plan to have an affair, but then, you never planned to have one in the first place!

Kiwi...look at it as love, as part of a healthy, vibrant M: knowing what your S is doing, where they are, caring for them, spending time together, sharing intimate thoughts only with them...and being HONEST with each other...

your H is telling you his fear...you love him so are putting his fears to rest...you don't need to question whether his fear is legitimate (it is his fear), take it as an accusation against you (it is HIS fear), or assume anything other than he feels fear and needs your help to feel better (teamwork!)...

hope this long-winded explanation helps a bit...you are a wonderful person and I wish you all the best in your M...awed

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Thank you everyone. You really are a wonderful bunch. You are all so right.

Because of time differences it's 5 in the morning here but I had to check in.

I feel awful about threadjacking Kati's thread. I've started another one of my own.

Jenny

Awed,

I appreciate your response. I just can't do Plan B; I know that is what I need to do, but I just can't do it. I don't understand why, but I think I'm just so scared that it is something that he really wants. Maybe he wants ME to be the one to leave, to make the first step? Maybe I'm afraid that that would be it for us? Maybe I'm just clinging to something that is not really there.

I've often wondered if he just stays with me out of pity or that he just doesn't know how to let go. Of course, I would not want someone who just stays with my out of obligation or pity, but I just don't get why this is so hard for me. I often wonder where my sense of self-preservation is? I really don't believe that I'm as strong as you say in your message.

Sometimes, I will stand in front of the mirror and I will ask myself "What the f*** is wrong with you? Why don't you stand up for yourself?" I don't even understand myself.

All I can feel is pain. I can't even think clearly anymore. I feel like I'm hurting my family, my friends, just about anyone who cares about me. I'm withdrawn, I have a hard time listening to people's thoughts etc. Nobody really knows what is going on in my life, therefore everyone probably just kinda thinks that I've gone off the deep end or so. I'm usually a very social person, but I can't even find it in me to call my friends, go out or anything.

My H and I are actually apart right now; he's on a business trip for one month and it has helped a little bit to clear my mind.

Kati

Katie,

I don't have anything profound to say, but wanted to express my support to you for what you're going through.

Prior to learning of my FWH's affair, no one could have convinced me that it was possible in my marriage. I was so blown away by the reality of it; that it took me a very long time to recognize myself again.

Sort of like what Cali said in her post. I could and probably have at some point written what she said word for word. The best joke on me was that I thought I was "insightful", while the affair happened right under my nose.

Like Cali, I still don't trust my own instincts. I trust my H far more than I trust my ability to know if he's having another affair.

What this experience does is beyond devistation (spl?) to the degree that my reactions and recovery was different than I would have envisioned. Like most I said that I would never tolerate infidelity; and told my husband on occasion that I would never stay married if he ever betrayed me.

I can't imagine telling anyone about the affair, if they weren't familiar first hand with a similiar experience. There's no way they could possibly understand...how could they? I sure couldn't prior to my experience.

We've told no one in our lives about the affiar, with the exception of our priest and Steve Harley.

I guess my point is...everyone's path is different. I hope you continue to come to us here on MB to help you through this pain.

Between the counseling and the wonderful people here, my sanity is returning. Recovery is going well too. I'm going back to read your situation from the beginning; so I can understand what it is you're dealing with. Blessings, CSue

Hi Sue,

I know that everyone's situation is slightly different, but it seems like the pain is something that we all share in common, whether you are a BS or a WS. It hurts like hell.

Here is just a quick insight to what happened to us. I suffered for quite a few years during my marriage from a condition called vaginismus. This causes involuntary spasms of the vaginal muscles which can make intercourse either very painful or impossible. This caused a lot of stress in my marriage as you can imagine. I'm pretty creative in the bedroom and also very sexual and against the odds we were able to have a good sexlife for many years, but deep down my H was not satisfied. I struggled with this condition and little by little I lost more and more self-esteem. I felt like I did not deserve to be sexy and that I did not deserve my husband's desire, even though he would always tell me that I am beautiful and sexy, I would brush of his compliments saying things like "yeah right". But, what he was saying is true. I AM a good-looking woman with a nice body and there should be no reason for me to feel this way.

Early on in our marriage and even during the time that we were still dating, I started seeking medical help for my problem. I have been to numerous doctors (gyno's, psychologists, physical therapist... you name it, I've been there), but nobody ever had any idea what was wrong with me. Physically everything seemed fine and I did not have problems with libido or arousal which made things even more frustrating for ME. After a few years, I started feeling very depressed and started withdrawing from my H. I felt like I was the only woman in the world who could not do something that came so natural to many other women. I was devastated and I felt like an incomplete woman. I felt like I would never be able to have children or just experience even wild and passionate sex with the man that I loved so much. I felt like I was letting him down.

Combine sexual frustrations with marital problems and work issues and you got the perfect breeding ground for an affair. This is when my H met the OW. I was brought to my knees because I felt like I deserved all this because I could not be a 'real' woman to him. I finally found a doctor who was familiar with my problem and she referred me to a world-famous U.S. clinic that dealt with problems like vaginismus. The doctors there were the best. For the first time in my life, did I feel like I was not alone. Someone understood.... They gave me hope and I was able to overcome this condition within a matter of months through gradual dilation of the vaginal muscles. I now have a great and normal sex life for which I'm very grateful. I guess having been through this entire ordeal makes me appreciate sex even more and I want to do it all the time. I love to experiment and I feel very passionate about making love. My H was happy about my progress, but I guess after all these years of frustration, he feels resentful and I think that he is acting very selfishly by still keeping in contact with OW and continuing to hold the past over my head. I have suffered much from all of this, but I feel that I have come a long way and I could only hope that he would want to share with me a new love and a better marriage. I feel sorry for what I have put him through and one time he told me that another man may have not stayed with me through all this. I do realize that and I appreciate him being with me throughout all this, but what else can I do to show him that I'm better now? That all this is in the past?

Kati

Kati...a very big hug to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

you ARE strong...you are here and you are trying to work your way through one of life's toughest challenges...to love someone who has injured you beyond belief...

tell me more about this...you wrote it in one of your earlier posts...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While this has all been really horrible, I do have to admit that some positive has come out of it. I feel like a different person because it made me take a really good hard look at myself and I feel much better about the person that I've become after the A. I do know that I have cleaned my 'emotional closet', but I'm not so sure about my H.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can you tell me more? what have you cleaned out of your emotional closet?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just can't do Plan B; I know that is what I need to do, but I just can't do it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have you tried the emotional detachment exercise? I highly recommend it if not! it helps you sort through and figure out your fear...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All I can feel is pain. I can't even think clearly anymore. I feel like I'm hurting my family, my friends, just about anyone who cares about me. I'm withdrawn, I have a hard time listening to people's thoughts etc. Nobody really knows what is going on in my life, therefore everyone probably just kinda thinks that I've gone off the deep end or so. I'm usually a very social person, but I can't even find it in me to call my friends, go out or anything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">who have you talked to about this? have you seen a doctor? are you on anti-depressants?

how are you hurting others???

when you say no one knows what is going on, does that mean you haven't told anyone about the A?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H and I are actually apart right now; he's on a business trip for one month and it has helped a little bit to clear my mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how do you feel your mind is clearer? are you feeling calmer with him away? or are you getting some perspective?

200 questions I know! let's see if we can get you feeling a bit better...okay? sort through some of the muddle and see if a bit of a solution is hidden in there...

I've spent a lot of time on these forums, reading a lot of different stories...I have no doubt that you are a heck of a lot stronger than you give yourself credit for...awed

Edited to add: we were cross-posting there...wow! tell me again that you are not a strong woman!!! you are extremely courageous...

okay...here's little ray of sunshine...I faced many of the same issues for entirely different reasons...your H is quite consumed with himself, I can assure you...he is thinking of himself...he is staying where he knows he is best off...

do you see this as good news? let me know...

have you seen a counsellor? MC or IC? how about a marriage coach?

if you feel ANY of the questions (or all) are intrusive, then don't answer them...

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Time.

Patience.

Consistency.

For a LONG time, you may suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder... seemingly innocent triggers... smells, sounds, phrases, WHATEVER will send you right back into those FEELINGS.

But, over time, as you forgive yourself and your spouse w/ grace and mercy you will heal. And, you will learn patience.

Be consistent with your love and actions.

There is no magical happily ever after. It doesn't happen overnight and you are 'right' to not trust @ first... but keep @ it. Keep @ the learning, the forgiveness, and the love and it WILL HAPPEN.

I quit focusing on my marriage @ one point and simply focused on ME and MY own healing. Oddly enough, following my healing came OUR healing.

Cali

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by awed18:

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can you tell me more? what have you cleaned out of your emotional closet?

I have that having dealt with vaginismus etc. and having overcome this was a big part of cleaning out my emotional closet. I used to NEVER talk about it, to anyone, other than my husband and my doctors, but now I feel that I can write about it and I have even told my Mom about it. I have also told my H everything that I have been afraid of - him leaving me because of the vag, all of those fears, my fears of not being a good wife to him, not satisfying him. I have told him about my first sexual experience that was not good and how afraid it made me of men. I basically laid it all out on the table.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just can't do Plan B; I know that is what I need to do, but I just can't do it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have you tried the emotional detachment exercise? I highly recommend it if not! it helps you sort through and figure out your fear...


What is the emotional detachment exercise? I have never heard about that?


[/QUOTE]who have you talked to about this? have you seen a doctor? are you on anti-depressants?


I have told nobody about this; just people on this board know. I have not seen a doctor and I'm not taking any medications.


how are you hurting others???


I'm hurting my family by withdrawing from them; not paying attention to their problems and worries. I have told my Mom a little about what is going on between my H and I, but she was disappointed in me and she said that there is really nothing that she could do or help me with. I feel like a failure. I failed as a wife, a lover, a daughter, a sister... Now, I'm failing as a friend because all I can think about is my own pain and I'm unable to listen to my friends and their worries and concerns and just be a good friend.


when you say no one knows what is going on, does that mean you haven't told anyone about the A?


No, I haven't really told anyone. Only people on this board and I've tried to talk to my Mom. I told her a little bit, but every time I try to bring up the subject, she switches to something else. I don't think that she wants to hear about it. My H has withdrawn quite a bit from his family. I really love his family a lot and most of all I miss his Mom who died about three years ago. I could talk to her about ANYTHING. She was my lifeline. One of the most fantastic person's that I've ever met. I think most family know that something is not right and I've just said that we are having some difficulties right now.

[/QUOTE]how do you feel your mind is clearer? are you feeling calmer with him away? or are you getting some perspective?


Sometimes I feel better, but I also miss him tremendously. We talk on the phone for a few minutes every day and it is mostly pleasant. Just last night, I didn't feel too good (maybe PMS'sing) and I got weepy on the phone. He hates that. I felt bad that I started crying and it took me a long time to fall asleep. I'm trying to be strong and getting a focus on my life. I want to get my career going and he asks me all the time about this, but it is just so hard to concentrate on those things with all of the cr** going on.

The one things that really saves me every day is sports. I usually feel much better afterwards.

Kati

I have not seen a counselor - IC or MC. At one time, my husband thought it might be a good idea if we went to see a counselor, but then he never brought the subject back up again. I tried to ask him about it once again, but he didn't respond at all. I also know that he cannot really see a counselor with me for MC because he holds a top secret security clearance.

I do think that my husband is pretty selfish at times. He knows that continued contact with OW hurts me, but he feels that there shouldn't really be anything wrong with it since there is no sex involved. I feel like he has no respect for me and my feelings. I think that he knows that I feel pretty low about myself and bringing up the vaginismus issue over and over again will make me have to relive this entire ordeal over and over again and it hurts.

Sometimes, he will tell me that he is so happy that we have overcome this and that now we have a real possibility of having a real marriage and he also wants to have a baby with me and I get so happy only to be crushed a few days later again when he resumes contact with OW.

Kati


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by awed18:

Edited to add: we were cross-posting there...wow! tell me again that you are not a strong woman!!! you are extremely courageous...

okay...here's little ray of sunshine...I faced many of the same issues for entirely different reasons...your H is quite consumed with himself, I can assure you...he is thinking of himself...he is staying where he knows he is best off...

do you see this as good news? let me know...

have you seen a counsellor? MC or IC? how about a marriage coach?

if you feel ANY of the questions (or all) are intrusive, then don't answer them... [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

jl et al, Just a quick drive by opinion, although I did post a couple times to sarie re disclosure/, I said, and I still believe she is a phoney, and therefore a waste of time....if she isn't a phoney, she is a full blown sociopath, and still waste of posting time.

Kati: can you afford professional help? are you willing to see or talk to a counsellor? What about a M coach?

the reason I suggest a coach is because you can do a plan with them that will really help...

as far as counselling, your mom is not being supportive obviously...this is hard on you, understandably...you do need support as you've got a lot of grieving to sort through...I think a counsellor would help you to have a more positive view, but you also need to find the right person for you, someone you are comfortable with...

in any case, the emotional detachment exercise...apparently, it is right out of Melody Beattie's book...here's the thread...

emotional detachment

basically you write out all you can...I wrote pages (NO big surprise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) but it helped me understand what I feared and why...that is the best way to address and move past your fear...

I truly wish there was something I could say to help in the short-term...remember that you have friends here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...read over Cali, JL, csue and all the other great posts to you on this thread...

there is lots of positive stuff to think about...focus on thinking about positives for now...that is a simple and effective solution...

what do you think would help? besides the running...

are there any friends that you think you could confide in? a voice is helpful although these boards are terrific aren't they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Kati: hang in there...your H is a typical WS...listen to others who are much further ahead of you in surviving and recovering from an A...

YOU are the most important consideration right now...take care of yourself first and foremost...awed

Sorry Sarah: I totally disagree that you think one has no choice to love or not to love. Many counselors and experts on the subject will attest to just the opposite. To love or not is a willful choice. Real love is a decision, a commitment to work through marital disasters even if you don't "feel" like it. Love is not based on fleeting feelings...feelings are deceptive...for instance, one day you feel like working out or going shopping, and the next day you don't. The problem with people these days (and it's human nature that is reinforced by the media) is that we have a disposable society that make break important commitments based on how they feel at the expense of hurting others. It's selfish. Selfishness is as far from unconditional love as you can get. I hated my H for his A, I couldn't stop puking for days, I could hardly look at him without disgust...but once I humbled myself and mustered up enough compassion for him as I could, then I realized what real love was. What's strange is even though I didn't "feel" like loving him, I did it anyway and then those loving feelings returned to both of us. Our marriage is more than awesome now.
Spirit

Thank you for the information, awed. I appreciate that and it was very interesting to read. I will definitely give it a try. I went online this morning to check out some counselors in my area; it is just so hard to decide which one to choose. I believe my health plan covers approximately 10-15 sessions. Do you think that would be sufficient?

Most of the friends that we have are common friends and I really do not want to put them in the middle. It is so hard not having anyone to talk to about this. I do talk to God though...

When we started making love, my husband told me that he is so proud of me and that now we have a chance at being a 'real' couple and even have a baby. We had actually been trying to conceive, but nothing happened so far. Sometimes, I would get confused why he would want a child with me and talk about those things and then turn around and contact OW again, send her gifts etc. He said that OW knows that we are trying to have a baby and she wishes us luck. I just cannot believe that she would say that. I wonder if she even knows that we make love now.... He said that she is engaged and she is happy with her fiancee. Then why does she need my H? I guess I should also not always believe what my H is telling me, right?

Sometimes I think that if he truly wanted to be with someone else or her then he would have already left after all this time, but he is still with me at home. I know that he hates it when I cry or get sad; he said that makes him hate coming home. He wants home to be a fun place where we enjoy eachother. It is just so hard to do when I don't know if I can actually open up my heart to him again.

I do notice that our relationship is better when I feel better about myself and I keep busy with things. I guess that is one of the keys; keep on working on myself.

Thanks for posting; I really appreciate everyone's help and advise. I have learned a lot from this board and it is always a bit comforting to know that someone out there understands how I'm feeling.

Kati

Kati,

re: IC...it is hard to pick a counsellor for sure...have you read the guidelines? oh wait, that's for MC! but you know, some of it will apply anyhow...interviewing them, seeing what their perspective is, etc....all good consumer advice...

I had to try two...the first one was terrible! anyone who tells you what to do right off the bat? run don't walk away...

a good counsellor is there to listen, critically, to what you are saying...when they repeat it back to you, if you don't like what you hear, you can re-phrase...but sometimes what you don't like will actually tell you what you are really expressing deep down...

a good counsellor helps you peel back the layers...get at what you need to know about yourself...give you some neutral perspective too...

you need to talk to someone because you are going through a heck of a lot of trauma with little to no support...you need to express your legitimate grief and have some external perspective on your situation...

a good counsellor will help you take action that will make you feel better...I'd be happy to suggest lots of strategies to you...but isolation and the feelings you are describing should be discussed with a professional...

I think you sound like a remarkable person actually...very very strong...counselling will help you to regain this sense of strength, to see how well you are coping and have a strategy for improving your general outlook on life, focussing outward...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but he feels that there shouldn't really be anything wrong with it since there is no sex involved. I feel like he has no respect for me and my feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and you are bang on the money...it doesn't matter whether or not they have sex, what matters is that he is involved in an EA, doesn't understand why this is having such an impact on you, and is (I take it?) unconcerned with resolving this issue with you...

can you afford to talk to a marriage coach? I used Penny Tupy's services and the cost is less than you would think...your H does not have to speak with her, she can simply guide you with a plan...help you develop strategies that will be effective...give you a professional perspective on what is really happening in your M...she's a real motivator too! very positive...I think you would feel better just talking with her...

I'm going to go back to something you've said elsewhere...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's just that everytime I hear the D word or anything about OW, it breaks open wounds that I'm desperately trying to heal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you cannot heal on your own...your H is typical because he is using whatever to justify continuing in the A! of course you cannot heal...

listen: there is NOTHING wrong with you...you are overwhelmed and crying because of the painful situation you are in...

it makes no difference that you had a M problem in the past, nor does this justify your H's ongoing A...most of us here can relate you know...most of us had problems big and small prior to the A...doesn't mean the A was justified...nor is ongoing contact...

if he can't see that, well...that is what makes him typical!

personally, I think a M coach could help you get perspective and start feeling better TODAY...talking to a IC and perhaps getting on meds would be the next step...worrying about your H and his problems would come somewhere after that...

what do you think about this Kati? can you do it? take the first step? If not, what's holding you back?

gosh I want to reach out and give you a hug...I don't think you have a clue how well you are doing and how much better things could be for you...waiting just around the corner...awed

P.S. hey!!! just read that you do belly-dancing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> so do I and I love it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> something else we have in common...

Awed,

I have printed out some guidelines on the internet and I'm just going to call a few counselors and ask questions to see if I can get an appointment. I'm sorta nervous to talk to someone though. But more than anything I'd like to feel better.

I feel so lost here sometimes and I've been getting quite homesick as well. I'm not from this country and I do not have any family here, other than my husband's family, but they live far away.

I have little money available to me so I have to be careful in what I spend and do, so I'm not sure if I could afford a professional M coach. I guess, it would depend on what the fee is and how much money I'll have at my disposal. My H spends money freely, so it is really really difficult for me to make sure that we are okay each month.

I think it's so cool that you are a fellow belly-dancer. I LOVE it. It is one of the most fun things that I've ever done. Hard work, actually! ;-)

Kati

^la de da^


Sarie and Julie are the same age! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I thought the same thing. Julie sounds a lot like Sarie in the way she writes and how she responds to some posts.

Julie did say she got the idea for her complementary closes (like ending with love or sincerely, Julie) from Sarie's posts. She has a different story (her H is a FWH), but it could easily be contrived. We all know this site can be addicting and that Sarie wasn't comfortable posting once she made a firm decision to not give up her A. She thought it funny when I shared my suspicions on a thread. Also, she had lied to use before...saying she told her H about her A on a trip they took and he was fine and had forgiven her.

Susan, its the same person. I am a commercial psycholgist - signature behaviours, phrasing, as well as declared personal histories match really closely. Registration dates a week between them.

But which is the REAL one, Julie or Sarie ? Which is the alter ego ?

I've tried to see evidence of INVOLVED reportage as opposed to displaced reportage ( the way stories are told by non pro writers can tell whether someone is writing in their own first person or a projected first person) but its hard so far.

And in truth...does it really matter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OMG!! Thank you for the biggest laugh in my day! It's not about Sarie, Sarah, Blessed Time.

It's about sufdb, SNL, or any of the other names he went by. Read his post....

"jl et al, Just a quick drive by opinion, although I did post a couple times to sarie re disclosure/, I said, and I still believe she is a phoney, and therefore a waste of time....if she isn't a phoney, she is a full blown sociopath, and still waste of posting time."

If anyone is keeping a list of the Pot calling the Kettle Black, this definitely belongs on it!!

Or, would that be more of a Birds of a Feather thing?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />