Melody -

I have a question, or I guess some questions, about AA and the 12 steps and am hoping you can help.

My H is now in AA and going through the 12 steps. He will reach six months of sobriety next week...one day at a time I know. I am so proud of him!

Anyway, it seems that AA/12 steps and MB don't quite jive. While we are going through M recovery, making honesty, and communication our top priority (as well as our identified EN's), it seems that going through steps 8/9 is somewhat of a secret...or private??

H says this whole process is strictly between him, God and his sponsor and that he doesn't have to share anything about it with me. When I talk to our MC (my IC) about how uncomfortable I feel about not knowing who/when (OWs for instance??), IC says that she can't see how honesty and communication doesn't apply here also.

My IC was in contact with H's IC (addictions specialist) and learned from her that it's okay to keep this information private...after all, who wants to tell their S about all their past dirty laundry. ??

I've been attending Al-Anon regularly. Been doing a lot of reading...read The Dilema of an Alcoholic Marriage twice now...as well as other books...including the Big Book. I thought I understood the 12 step (ongoing) process and never came away with the feeling that it's something secret.

I am looking for a better understanding of the 12 steps and hoping to gain some insight.

I have some other questions, but I guess I'll start here since my understanding of this may be way off.

Thank you.

sss

Edited to add: I think it really comes down to H accounting for his time and whereabouts. You know, if we were justing dealing with alcoholism and AA, I probably wouldn't be so uncomfortable. But since we are dealing with multiple A's and OW's, accountibility for time/whereabouts is a big factor here. Does that make sense? We are trying to recover our M. I'm trying to trust H again. I'm trying to deal with my insecurities, low self-esteem, etc. I don't feel it's okay for H to say one day...I'm going to make amends to someone today, I'll be back sometime later.

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

Let your WH go through the 12 step program and don't worry about it. If he sincerely does the program, you have nothing to worry about. He will be a changed person.

Making the amends is required, as long as it does not hurt someone. It would be improper to make the amends to an OW when he is married to you. He will come to understand that he makes the amends by being a faithful husband.

In the meantime, you could find a 12 step group. It is a wonderful program, and can be used for any problem, not just addiction.

lol! It is the EXACT OPPOSITE and his "addictions specialist" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> is wrong. Your DH is supposed to take a personal inventory and make a list of those he has harmed and make amends to them.

Step 8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: Made direct amends wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Show me WHERE he is supposed to keep secrets from those he has harmed? Wouldn't it be ridiculous if he went to those people and told them he had harmed them but REFUSED to tell them WHAT he had done to harm them? Refused to admit what he had done? How is that making amends?

Now c'mon, that is not honesty and that is NOT the program of AA.

Step 9, of course, mandates that he tell you about his affairs if he is sincere about making amends. That is HOW he makes amends.

He can't make amends until he tells you the truth and answers all of your questions. Your marriage won't recover without it.

Not only that, but this concerns your marriage so it can't be kept secret from you. It concerns your life and you have a right to know what has happened in your life. To withhold this information GREATLY HARMS YOU because he will then have a secret with other women that you are not allowed to know. That is counterproductive to trust.

Step 9 - Made amends except when to do so would harm..

I suspect they are hiding behind this qualifier, which is NONSENSE. He is harming you by NOT telling you.

Tell them to knock it off and get quit playing games with the AA. AA is not to be used to avoid the consequences of bad behavior.

P.S. he shouldn't share his entire inventory with you, but he MUST share details of the affair with you in order to make amends. The inventory is a private thing, but that does not mean he can withhold pertinent information that concerns YOU. That is NOT how the inventory is to be used.

Melody

Thanks for your reply.

I don't think I explained my concern clearly enough.

I didn't mean that he is trying to keep secrets from the people he is making amends to (he has only made one so far - a co-worker) just keeping step 8 and 9 a secret from me. And, H has (finally) taken responsibility for the A, answers my questions, talks to me about it, etc. So, I'm not worried about that when he makes amends to me.

It has more to do with your second post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P.S. he shouldn't share his entire inventory with you, but he MUST share details of the affair with you in order to make amends. The inventory is a private thing, but that does not mean he can withhold pertinent information that concerns YOU. That is NOT how the inventory is to be used.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sharing the inventory. Why is this private? This is where the addictions specialist's response came into play..."H shouldn't have to air all his dirty laundry to me"

So, are you saying that it's private but that if I have any concerns about H making amends...like to any OW's, or something else that might bother me, I should ask him? H should share it? It's fine for H to say I'm making amends to someone, somewhere, sometime later today??

I guess I'm having trouble fitting all of this into allowing privacy in an M.

Thanks.

sss

He should tell you anything and everything that has to do with the OW. And he shouldn't be talking to the OW anyway, even to make amends. Remember, it says "except when to do so will cause harm..." He cannot contact the OW without causing harm to you and setting yours - and his - recovery back to day 1 in recovery.

As far as the rest of the inventory, no, it shouldn't be shared with the spouse or any other family member. Its purpose is to PURGE, not to expose. It should be shared with a person he won't have to look at again. He will have a whole laundry list of stupid little lies, and other scummy behavior that he needs to purge.

Often the stuff is not that bad, but the alcoholic has "nursed" it so long that there is GREAT SHAME in sharing it. And there should be shame, but the point is not necessarily to expose all his dirty laundry to the world, but to purge the dirt that is in his soul.

It is a PURGING exercise and that purging is almost impossible when forced to share it with someone whose opinion means everything to you. It needs to be shared with someone who has BEEN THERE and has similar dirty laundry. Does that make sense?

Melody -

Yep. Makes sense. Thanks.

I've asked this question at Al-Anon and didn't really get an answer. It makes perfect sense when you say purging, the feeling of shame, etc.

I was having a hard time with it because of the M recovery, honesty, trying to build trust again with H...to learn that in AA he now has a sponsor that he "shares" things with that are not to be shared with me. I wasn't getting it.

Another question. Just for more insight.

In books I've read about alcoholism and making amends, I often read that once the alcoholic starts making amends, he/she starts with spouse/family, close friends, etc. That makes sense.

I'll have to admit that I was somewhat surprised that H made amends to a co-worker first as opposed to me. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the alcoholic has to be ready to make amends. Maybe that's all I need to understand. I guess I just find it interesting that he chose to make amends to a co-worker (who he does not see very often) as opposed to his W that he sees 24/7, lives with, loves, etc.

H did tell me that his sponsor suggested he start with me first. H felt that the co-worker was an easier one to do and was good practice for him.

I am just curious about this. Is it all about being/feeling ready? Not simply starting with those that you are closest to?

Thanks again.

sss

SSS, there is no mandated order when it comes to amends. The point is to make the amends, not necessarily the order it is made in. I think he used good judgement by making an easy one first as a practice to go onto the harder ones.

I am concerned about some of the things you are saying and am wondering if you are scutinizing his program in a legalistic and unwarranted way? Are you saying these things to him about the manner in which he conducts his recovery?

Granted, he is accountable to you in many areas, but he has to work out his program on his own in order to learn to be an independent and accountable person. He can't have a spouse in the background telling him how he should run his program. I worry that you will push him away and cause resentment if you constantly question his efforts. And maybe you aren't doing that at all! But I thought I would mention it.

It sounds to me like he is taking his program VERY SERIOUSLY and trying his best to heal himself and make amends.

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>

I was having a hard time with it because of the M recovery, honesty, trying to build trust again with H...to learn that in AA he now has a sponsor that he "shares" things with that are not to be shared with me. I wasn't getting it.


sss </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What they are sharing is stuff that they have in common. See, most alcoholics are really kids who never grew up. His sponsor is specially equipped to help him GROW up and learn to live life productively because he has been through this himself. They are not keeping secrets from you, believe me. This process will result in a better man FOR YOU.

Besides, you would probably die laughing at some of the stuff alcoholics talk about anyway. Alot of it is stuff that normal people learned by the time they were 18 years old. Alcholics have a lot of catching up to do and they have to do in an environment where they feel absolutely safe with a person who has BEEN there and can guide them through the pitfalls.

I hope that makes sense. But just know, they are not keeping secrets or doing anything that would ever harm you or the marriage. What they are doing will HELP your marriage, not hurt it.

not to butt in here, but....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going to make amends to someone today, I'll be back sometime later.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm just curious...are you ON that step?

I encourage you to do the 12 steps in order. They are in order for a reason. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And about "who" to make ammends to first:

In my alanon, we discussed this. Sometimes amends are changed behavior. Sometimes they involve going to another person. Ususally we might choose to first make ammends to someone that we feel will be "easiest". Someone that won't reject us. But, there is no specific order as far as I know for making ammends.

Could it be that in a way your husband did make ammends to you first simply by changing his behavior?

I better stop now because I don't know if this is making any sense to you are not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, please continue going to Alanon because it is a wonderful program for life!

Blessings,
Susan

Melody,

I have not really been saying anything to H because I didn't want to hurt any progress he has made or jepordize his recovery in any way.

I was simply conflicted and lacked understanding.

I've been asking my IC the questions I have. She's all for talking to H about every little thing (for instance, if I felt hurt that he made amends to someone else before me). I'm not hurt...just curious.

I didn't really feel comfortable with what my IC said since she's admitted that she isn't an addictions specialist or that familiar with AA. Something just didn't feel right. I remembered reading a post of yours about recovering alcoholics and thought I would ask you.

Before I asked H anything I wanted to get some more information...knowing full well that my confusion or questions could be coming from the way I think -- I'm a very process and analytical-minded person - lol - can you tell?

Now I know I shouldn't really ask him anything. See, you saved me from some possible damage by opening my big mouth!

It's just so hard sometimes, ya know. I still don't feel all that safe, I still don't feel much trust for H, I still don't feel protected...but I'm getting there. H has been great in the past two months.

I think it would be helpful for me to find a different Al-Anon group. This group is not very big and most of the time the women just ***** about all the things their H's have done to them. One women's H is going to get his 30 year token next week. She just spent last night's meeting talking about how he went out drinking on his own on the first New Year's Eve after they got married...like 35 years ago. Although the stories can be interesting and helpful, I'm more into learning about the program and all of the ways it can help.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

sss

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong> Melody,

I have not really been saying anything to H because I didn't want to hurt any progress he has made or jepordize his recovery in any way.

I was simply conflicted and lacked understanding.

I've been asking my IC the questions I have. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SSS, I think you are dead right about finding another group. Alanon is supposed to be about YOU, not everybody else. Who can heal by *****ing about other people? Sadly, there are many who believe there is some weird empowerment in victimization. Thank goodness you are healthy enough to know better!

I am glad you are asking us here instead of confronting your H with this stuff. What he is doing is extremely hard. And only HE can work his program, no one can work it for him.

I think you have good instincts, SSS, and I hope you keep coming here with your questions. There are also many experienced Alanon-ers here like Susan and Bramble Rose who can help you through this.

<small>[ April 07, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Susan,

I am not currently going through the 12 steps. I incorrectly thought that the 12 steps were just for the alcoholic. Just recently learned from Al-Anon material that I could go through the twelve steps too. Yes, I know the steps are in order for a reason.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could it be that in a way your husband did make ammends to you first simply by changing his behavior? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, in fact, I believe he has started making amends to me with his changed behavior. For the past two months he's been very loving, caring, communicating with me, leaves me a love note every day by the coffee pot, has told me he is sorry for the A's and the hurt and pain he has caused me, etc.

As you can read in my other post to Melody, I'm not getting a great deal from the Al-Anon group I go to except for old war stories.

I had questions. I was curious. So I asked.

Thanks for your input.

sss

Hi stillsosad

Regarding the honesty issue and the 12 steps...

Here is my take on this, and is also in step 5

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

It may be his sponsor, a counselor and in my take about the A SPECIALLY you.

That's my HO. I'm too new on this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thought I would chime in.... as a "double winner" that means I qualify for both AA and Alanon. Although it I attended alanon first, it took me much longer to really get the Alanon program than it did AA.

Here's what the AA twelve and twelve says about step 9:

" As soon as we feel confident in our new way of life and have begun, by our behavior and example, to convince those about us that we are indeed changing for the better, it is usually safe to talk in complete frankness with those who have been seriously affected, even those who may be only a little or not at all aware of what we have done to them. The only exceptions we will make will be cases where our disclosure would cause actual harm. These conversations can begin in a casual or natural way. But if no such opportunity presents itself, at some point we will want to summon all our courage, head straight for the person concerned, and lay our cards on the table. We needn't wallow in excessive remorse before those we have harmed but amends at this level should always be forthright and generous.

There should only be one consideration which should qualify our desire for a complete disclosure of the damage we have done. That will arise in the occasional situation where to make a full revelation would seriously harm the one to whom we are making amends, or quite as important -other people. We cannot, for example, unload a detailed account of extramarital adventuring upon the shoulders of our unsuspecting wife or husband. And even in those cases where such a matter must be discussed, let's try to avoid harming third parties, whoever they may be. it does not lighten our burden when we recklessly make the crosses of others heavier."
----------------------------------------
The real question is, what if our spouse repented to God, and to another human being and changed thier ways forever, would that be ok? What if they never had another A? Do I really need to know exactly what went on if the behavior is changed through the grace of God?

I'm not saying that is what I believe, but throw that out to think about. Over the years, I've people do it that way, never telling the spouse everything and go on to have wonderful A - free marriages by working the 12 steps. The whole reason for doing the 12 steps is to have a spiritual awakening.

--------------------------------------------

In step twelve it says " He has been granted a gift which amounts to a new state of consciousness and being............ He finds himself in possession of a degree of honesty, tolerance, unselfishness, peace of mind, and love of which he had thought himself quite incapable ........... When we developed still more, we discovered the best possible source of emotional stabilty to be God himself..........

When an alcoholic persistently tries all of AA's twelve steps in his home, often with fine results. At this point he firmly but lovingly commence to behave like a partner instead of life as a bad boy. Above all, he is finally convinced that romancing is not a way of life for him."

Step 11 states: "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only ofr knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."

If he constistenly applies this step, do you think God's will is for a wonderful, loving, committed M?


I am getting really tired and not sure if I put forth what I really wanted to say. Will have to check back after I've had my beauty sleep!

D.

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WillGetThruThis:
<strong> The real question is, what if our spouse repented to God, and to another human being and changed thier ways forever, would that be ok? What if they never had another A? Do I really need to know exactly what went on if the behavior is changed through the grace of God?

I'm not saying that is what I believe, but throw that out to think about. Over the years, I've people do it that way, never telling the spouse everything and go on to have wonderful A - free marriages by working the 12 steps. The whole reason for doing the 12 steps is to have a spiritual awakening.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that it always come back to "right to know" rather than someone's subjective idea of "need to know." I believe every BS has a RIGHT to know and no one is qualified, especially the WS, to take that right away from them. Regardless of how changed a person becomes in AA, that can't compensate for the fact that the BS might not CHOOSE to live with a liar and adulterer. The WS doesn't have the right to make that choice for the them.