Does an OW think that an unfaithful husband truly loves her? That the lies he tells her are the truth? Does she think that 12 yrs of memories & love are gone in seconds because she exists? Does she think they will ever amount to anything?
My Wh told so many lies to everyone, me, her, his family but more importantly to himself!

How do you know what they say is still fog talk or just the plain truth? When do you know when to quit?

OWs live in a fog also. Most of them want desparately to believe they are more important than the WS' family. Some become pyscho after a while or already be that way.

The OW I dealt with called WS' cell # and when I answered she yelled at me for answering his phone. I calmly told her that the phone was in 'my bedroom and H was in the shower'. I walked near the bathroom so she could hear the shower running. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> She was livid. She still told me I had no right to answer his phone then I said, I do because I am married to him. At that point she yelled 'no you're not.' I calmly replied, 'yes I am.' She yelled again (by this time I was having fun), I replied, 'I have a legal document that comfirms this, do you?' She then hung up. Later the OW called back to yell at the WS. I thought they both deserved it. LOL!!!

Most OWs are needy. Attention, reassurance, $$ and sex are major needs.

L.

My OW was my closet girlfriend - she was almost like a sister. When my WH told her he had feelings for her - she immediately opened her legs - some friend! Then she told me that he took advantage of her in her time of need (she had recently been dumped). She told me she thought my WH was a pathetic fool & she only talked to him because she felt bad for the fool. But, why did she carry on w/ him for 9 more months and now sends him a B-day telling him to leave my & our daughter - give himself a present? This from someone who claimed to "love" me!
We were doing great - getting along so well, holding hands, cuddling, talking about relocating to another state and that he thought we would make it. Then I think he stopped my last Sunday night (our D's 3rd Bday) after work and now he thinks he'll be better off on his own. But he loves me? This is love? Why am I the only one here? I am such a bad day - thank God he is at work today!

BB2,

Thanks for the clarification. In my case OW was a stranger. So our approaches maybe different.

There are some who have dealt with a similar situation and maybe able to help you further.

However, the basic concepts at MB will help you regardless. Know this, your H is still in the fog and can't shake the feelings the A created within him.

You need to read the concepts section above and the books Surviving an Affair along with His Needs/Her Needs. Both are by Dr Willard Harley. If you can get with a good MC familar with MB principles that w/b great. Phone couseling with Steve or Jennifer here at MB can greatly help.

Your H is confused and that is expected right now. He knows he is doing wrong

The OW went from being your friend to now your worst enemy. Don't grieve right now over the lost friendship or that will cause you more grief. Instead work on improving yourself, identifying and strengthening your support group. This includes your children. A hug can go a long way right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep posting. You are not alone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

My WH told me only 2 wks ago "Why would I leave someone as good as you for someone like her?" If he can say something like that - why is this so hard if he knows this - he had read her card & said "Whatever" that it's not what he believes. He also said I erronously have ideas about what he does, says or calls regarding the OW and he admits that he lets me think that there true. Why would anyone do that? To cause more pain?

You need to do some reading of what I recommended. What your H is doing is not logical but for those who are now WS it is quite according to the A script.

Are you finding that his actions and words are quite foreign to you? He changes his character from 1 moment to the next?

If so, he has been bitten by the A bug and it does take a quite to recovery. It is critical that you concentrate on educating yourself but not your H. Not yet. Right now he is a bit foggy and may not respond to logic.

When you read the concept section above and books you will find how to handle his current state of mind. Don't be accusatory. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Pray for patience. You will need all of that and then some but you will survive.

You will find lots of support here just not instantly as you would like. We are not professionals on this board, just very experienced baesdd on our personal experiences and what we learned here.

I am sorry you are at this stage. It may seem hopeless but your case does not sound that way yet. Keep posting and reading. It will get easier to handle. Read the other posts as well. You may find some that you can relate to better.

take care,
L.

I have read the concepts - I tried Plan Aing WH since this whole thing began - he told me that I have changed - I have been the way I was before the baby - more into his ENs, etc. The month of March I really thought we were in recovery - then I find the card and again my world crashed.
He just called me to tell me does want us to workout. He said when he's angry he goes for the jugglar - he can be an emotional abuser - he has gotten better since the A about that - even while dating he fought nasty - was always apolgetic after. My fault for never telling him it caused great pain - just put up a wall.
I admit I can be my own worst enemies - I ask a million questions about the A, his feelings - I quess it would be considered LBing him to much. I have been reading other MBers opinions and find that I'm not that different in wanting to know all facts, but I have read alot of WS responses and maybe I should back off abit- what for him to tell in his own timeframe. Neither one of us is great communicators - but we are getting better.

MB has been the saving grace for me. I am crying as I type this - I am consumed by all of this - I know I have to step back and breath and let time & God heal our wounds. But it is easy to know something and more difficult to do it.

please consider counseling w/SH if at all possible. regardless whether if it's just you or you and your H. It will be immediate professional feedback specific to your situation. then of course continue to come here.

back to your question "what does an OW think?" well the OW in my case is 20 yrs old and still lives at home w/her parents. my H met her in a college class last fall. when i think about what she must think about a man who's been M for over 10 yrs having a R w/her, it can simply be said that she thinks that if it had been her that was his W this wouldn't have happened or if I had treated my H better this wouldn't have happened. I did change a lot after the first few years we were M and wasn't the woman my H married. Now, i have returned to that woman he M but he has to give me the chance to show that to him.

i asked my H what makes him think that the OW won't change or that this won't happen to them and he said "what makes you think she will?" my answer was clear and is what i said. because the way that "they" feel about each other or the way he feels about her and the way that she is, is how we were 10 years ago and look at where we are now. i think the OW could be generally a nice person who made a mistake like what was said above. i don't think that my H would have been "interested" otherwise. he said she was just a pretty girl who was nice to him. but anyway, the OW have to tell themselves that because it's w/them (the OW) that things are different and that they won't treat the WS the way the BS was etc. but clearly if we the BS and WS thought or even considered that we would be where we are today, things wouldn't be the way they are, make sense?

basically what i'm trying to say is that the OW is in their own fog. talk to the counselors at MB if at all possible. prayers to you.

Former BS here.

Really-it is not what the OW thinks. It is how the WS feels with the OW. It is all about the WS, his need (or hers). They lie to both the OW and the BS. Some say terrible things about their wives. It is such an ego trip fro the WS to have two fighting over him. The OW think he is so miserable at home, that the wife never treated him right or she let herself go-oh poor MM. Reading that cr@p makes you realize what a fantasy relationship it is. Most OW really don't realize they are seeing only half the picture, their major problem is that they are believing a cheating liar. Most OW get terribly hurt in the end-most MM go home and leave pain in thier past-both OW and wife suffer. The OW made the choice, that is the difference, the BS has no choice because the WS took that from them. That is the major difference. The OW can blame herself for causing pain. The blame, however, rests squarely on the MM. The OW can only think with what she has been told by MM, who is escaping from real life with an affair since the real world got too tough for him.

very well said new jersey. the OW has a choice, the BS was not given a choice.

Hey everyone- I believe this girl is on the psycho path- the text messages were frequent- 43 times in a a 3 hour period one morning- wiith no reply from him until 2 hrs after she stopped and then 17 in a row again- she has called him from out os state- I threatened her job- she is living on her own- and told my husband she was afraid of me- my husband told her I have more class than to go up to his former job and start trouble- do i feel like strangling her- ABSOLUTELY- will it change anything- probably not- I only torture myself with this whole thing- and I look like the crazy one- I am going to try to put plan A into affect and see what happens- but the feelings I have, I need to work on before I go crazy.

I (FWW and OW)think that every OW is a bit different, as all people and situations are different. I know that we (both the WS and OP) are all in a "fog". I can tell you, though, that I personally never intended to leave my H for the OM. I considered at times leaving my H... but I never planned on marrying the OM, and I was careful to tell him that. I always thought that if the OM was able to cheat on his W with me, and was ready to leave her - why wouldn't he do the same thing to me? Not to mention - I didn't trust myself to be faithful to anyone else at that point, either. I got some needs met by the OM... and it was difficult to let go of his friendship, especially... but I never let myself believe that he and I were supposed to be married. I realize that different people think differently, though, so I can't speak for all OW. I know that the "fog" can really mess with a person's mind.
I agree with NJ that it's more about how the WS feels and thinks. Of course the OW affects the WS and their thought patterns, but in the end - it's a matter of what the WS believes and if/when they are able to come out of their fog.
Of course, I may still be in my fog (although I like to think that I'm getting past it), but I thought that I'd share my experience from this OW's point of view. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Hang in there - it sounds like your H may be trying to find his way out of the fog.
CW

What does an OW think?...this is a concept I have been thinking about alot lately...even searched the web to read some articles about this...again every situation is different and totally agree what we need to worry about is what our WS's think...that is the key here...WS and I have been married for 30 years..share many common interests...wonderful memories...love our family dearly...I suspect everywhere he goes he has memories of us (30 years we did alot together)...now what do WS and OW share?...a year and a half of lies, deceit, sneaking around and a world of fantasy...hmmmm....is that enough for them to make this work...time will tell...I remember my WS telling me he was so guilty about doing this he puked almost every day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> suspect he told OP what a terrible wife I was and that if I found out about them I would go beserk...well guess what...I proved him wrong and have not even lowered myself to bother contacting this OW...this is one lie he told her that she must realize...I am way above her level in every way..been a moral and faithful wife...now OW...she has already broken up two marriages...has no self esteem or self respect because of the lifestyle she leads...willing to take the crumbs left over...she is being used and she knows it but does not care...why...because she knows not too many men would be involved with a woman of her caliber and thus she is willing at all costs to continue on in this relationship...living with all the guilt as she knows the pain WS and she is putting his family through by continuing on with this A...WS is a man who previously respected honesty, integrity, morality...does he respect OW...again time will tell...

<small>[ April 12, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

Here's a story to ponder:

A long time ago in another state I met two sisters who had a rother in prison for marital rape. He'd had an affair, divorced his wife, and married the OW (one of the that rare 5% I guess). Since the OW knew he couldn't be trusted to honor his wife/marriage vows she came up with a plan to try to ensure he wouldn't cheat on her. (Of course she realized he was lying when he complained to her how awful wife # 1 was - she only pretended to believe him during the affair - so she knew she had to come up with a plan that involved more than simply being a good wife) So she told him that every time she had sex with him as his 2nd wife, it was consensual sex ONLY if he was not sleeping with another woman on the side (OW # 2); if she found out he ever cheated on her she would find out when the affair started, calculate how many times they had sex together since beginning of affair, and charge him with that many counts of marital rape. Well, in spite of her warnings (and her trying to be a better wife than his first wife) he did cheat on her. She slapped him with 30-some charges of marital rape and he spent several years in prison.

A little off topic maybe but it does illustrate that some OW do realize WH is lying to them and it would be stupid for them to assume they will be the magical wife who will be good enough to make him behave LOL

Um, the two sisters had a 'brother' in prison (not a 'rother') LOL

Oh and every time I see the ? 'what does the OW think', I'm tempted to answer, 'they don't' LOL

No seriously, they are in a fog too and I know their friends and family are usually trying to talk some sense into them. No doubt they are hearing lots of people close to them saying things like, "What ARE you thinking? Why would you want to marry a man who you know will cheat on his wife? Don't be stupid, of course he's tellign you his wife is awful - he's a lying cheat!" But they don't want to hear it - not from the WH's wife - not from their own friends and relatives.

Here's another story: I knew a woman who owned her own business. She had a husband and two kids. She almost lost it all because she met another man (married) when she was out for 'girls night' and fell 'in love'. The married romeo told her that he couldn't divorce his wife because his father in law was a lawyer and he'd lose everything in the divorce... Since she met the guy while out dancing with girlfriends (some of which were her employees), it didn't take long for the affair to be revealed at her business. I was a customer and walked into the business right into the middle of a debate between her and an employee/friend about whether or not she should contact OM's wife. They asked my opinion. I made it crystal clear I thought this otherwise very smart business woman would have to be insane to believe anything claimed by a man who was cheating on his wife. I told her about some of the affairs my husband had and the sort of lies he told OW. I even told her that if I knew who the wife was I would contact her myself and warned her that I was not the sort of person who would keep such a secret for anyone. My loyalty would always be to the betrayed wife, even if she was a total stranger. Eventually (weeks later) her employees, sister, (and customers) were able to convince her to confess to her husband and OW.

Anyway, I think we betrayed spouses sometimes worry needlessly that everyone is endorsing the affair and believing the lies about what a witch the betrayed wife was. We need to remember that it's only the WH and the OW who are in the fog. OK, sometimes there are some of their friends and family that are stupid enough to believe the lies, but you can be pretty confident that the BS's eyes aren't the only ones that are rolling... (HEY! BTW - How DO some of you post those funny faces with rolling eyes in your messages?)

My OW was my closest girlfriend - she was here in my home almost everyday. She was like a sister, at every family function, etc. I now think in her mind - she could step into my shoes & have my life - my husband & my beautiful daughter. She was always jealous that my WH left every night for work & told me he loved me & he looked forward to seeing me in the a.m. I have a family that I am sooooo close w/ while she has abandonment issues w/ both parents & doesn't even speak to her only brother. When anyone critizes her, even contructive critizism - look out she wreaks havoc. I guess I believed I was different.Hmmmmmm.

The one good thing I have learned from this - I am and will always be a much better person that she could ever hope to be!!!!!!!!!!!

What does OW think - you mean some of them actually have a brain? In my case OW is still leagally married with 2 kids. I believe she is selfish and vindictive with no morals and values. She knew WS was not available but didn't care. She told me when she found out it was too late, she was already in love. This was in less than a week. Believed all his lies like I was dead in bed, he was trying to leave me for 5 yrs. and all kinds of stupid stuff. Shows you how bright she is. Plus she's a convicted drug fellon, still does drugs while pregnant (from WS?), can't keep a job, can't take of the kids she has, and has literally cleaned out dozens of men's bank accounts. She kicked in my window and walked into my house, and then said, "Oh, I hate the way WS is using you." Talk about a psycho. This loser isn't in the fog she's become it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Cyn1018 - that OW sounds like a nightmare!

Yea, I just love the advice some give that we BS's are supposed to compete with the OW... AS IF they were somehow better than us! HUMPH

Oh and I almost forgot the best part of that story about the businesswoman who had an affair:

ONe day she suspected the wife was going to be coming to her place of business (an aerobix studio). So right in the middle of teaching a class, she changed the music to this raunchy song with lyrics: "I got your boyfriend - uh-huh - I got your man". We were all looking at each other and wondering 'what the'? because they had been using the same music forever for class and this song was really annoying. No doubt, she pretended to the OM that she was all sweet and innocent, a 'good girl' who just couldn't help herself, probably even pretended to care about his wife... But she revealed that she was gloating and wanted to hurt the wife.

Also, when the wife was contacted she just said, "Oh yea, my husband warned me that some woman had the hots for him and wouldn't leave him alone" LOL

You know, I was wondering about the question, "Does OW believe WS truly loves her?" Like I said before, they don't think. They want to believe for some reason they are so wonderful to take WS away from all his misery. WS was nothing until they came along. Talk about an ego!
Another good question is, "Does WS really think OW is really in love with them?" I mean they sleep with someone they don't even know, use them for whatever they can get, get pregnant on purpose, and blame us for everything that went wrong. WS loved us the same way once but yet is willing to be with some psycho. The fog sure gets thick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What does anyone else think?

Like I said my OW is a former close girlfriend - she told me a few days before she spread her legs for my WH that we were the "perfect couple" & should go to C. Then she slept w/ H & he was nothing but a pathetic loser. Then why do I have to contend w/ still? She was looking for hotels only a few months ago w/ his was on detail for work. But he's pathetic right?? Must have really low standards. Now she tells him she doesn't respect him & wants nothing to do w/ him. Then why is the *hore (my favorite word for her) still calling???? Then last month she called me & told me I was a Creepy *itch & I should stop riding the pity bus! I'm the one Plan Aing my WH to death & never do I bad mouth her. I just told my WH that she had abandonment issues & would never leave him alone. She was living w/ a guy for 10 yrs but her BF of 12 yrs ago is still hanging on by a noose. Maybe that would be a LB.

Bye the way, I learned when he baits me - I count to 100, if I'm not calm I begin again. I am finally learning MBers. Keep the Big Mouth Shut!!!! At least for now.