Makes no difference about planning. Once the child was born... the level of responsiblity is there. I understand what you are saying, that it's like adding salt to the wound and it's bugging you... just stop dwelling on it, ok?

And ya, he needs his mom. But you have no control over that. Also, don't EVER forget that he needs his dad too. It doesn't show, because he HAS his dad. So don't get confused on this issue. From personal experience I can tell you that there is a world of difference between a child who is raised on the daily love of two parents and a child who does 'visitation'. You can only do what you can only do, though. Just don't let your perspective get skewed.

Take your mothers words as venting. Most likely it would not force her to grow up, but just make her current lifestyle more difficult to maintain. And in the end, your son would suffer.

Same goes with trying to force her to come back. You can't do it. And even if you could, she would not suddenly become the parent she should be.

You just have to keep doing the best you can. Face your responsibility and keep his best interests in mind at all times.

Sometimes that's difficult.

dewt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> Makes no difference about planning. Once the child was born... the level of responsiblity is there. I understand what you are saying, that it's like adding salt to the wound and it's bugging you... just stop dwelling on it, ok?

And ya, he needs his mom. But you have no control over that. Also, don't EVER forget that he needs his dad too. It doesn't show, because he HAS his dad. So don't get confused on this issue. From personal experience I can tell you that there is a world of difference between a child who is raised on the daily love of two parents and a child who does 'visitation'. You can only do what you can only do, though. Just don't let your perspective get skewed.

Take your mothers words as venting. Most likely it would not force her to grow up, but just make her current lifestyle more difficult to maintain. And in the end, your son would suffer.

Same goes with trying to force her to come back. You can't do it. And even if you could, she would not suddenly become the parent she should be.

You just have to keep doing the best you can. Face your responsibility and keep his best interests in mind at all times.

Sometimes that's difficult.

dewt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Getting back to the planning part, it was something we did because we both genuinely wanted children and were building our future, we both knew of the tremendous responsibilty and life altering changes that would come with children, that is why we planned so we would be 100% sure we both understood what was ahead of us.

I grew up as an only child in a broken home and
I still have serious issues with my mom's "decision" to break up the family even 28 years later. There was no violence or physical harm in the household I grew up in, so all she tells me about why she left my father are completely un-justified as far as I am concerned. The day she left my dad she told me we were going on "vacation" for a week, that week was 28 years ago and we never went back.

I was 13 then and when she "settled" in her "new life" I was forgotten about mostly and basically raised myself from 14 on, everything was about her her her, I remember being 14 and out at 2-3 am with no-one being concerned about where I was or what I was doing.

The point is that her decision fundamentally affected my childhood and stability and she has the gall to wonder why I have little to no respect for her, she asks me "what did I do wrong? why did you turn out like this?"

I told her bluntly "well mom if you had been there for me instead of filling your selfish desires and actually guided me and gave a s*&^ about how my life's foundation would be then you have answered your own questions".

My W knows all about my childhood and says to me this day "I don't know how a parent can justify altering there own childs life in such a negative fashion like your mother did"

I thinking, look in the freaking mirror when you say that.

Good post, dude.

I too come from a broken home. In my case, my dad was a philandering, physically abusive drunk. (I never found out till my mom died) I too was left to raise myself and at 14 (going on 15) I was a street kid in MTL. My point here is that regardless of the reasons, the bottom lines are the same. Kids raised without two loving parents are at a severe disadvantage in this game called life.

If your wife knew the tremendous responsibility, what happened? Why does she now not know it?

My W knows all about my childhood and says to me this day "I don't know how a parent can justify altering there own childs life in such a negative fashion like your mother did"

Maybe you could find a constructive, non lovebusting way of saying that to her. Then again, maybe it won't make a difference. I keep thinking that if I just find the right words, or the right point, it will open my wife's eyes and she'll 'wake up'... I'm beginning (very slowly) to accept that there are somethings that are beyond me to control... that she will think what she thinks, and believe what she believes regardless of what I do or say.

...that my job is to keep my path straight and be the best dad I can be, and (as is a mantra on this site) 'work on myself'.

dewt

ps... forgive your mom. I bet that at the time she was doing what she thought was right and best. My mom was 'not a mom' because she was working her a$$ off, trying to support and raise 2 kids on her own. The bottom line is the same... There will come a time when she is no longer with you and it's important to make the best of what you have now...

I read an article in an "O" magazine edition (last May for mother's day perhaps?), and it was about how if we can't get what we need (emotional needs) from our mothers, that there is nothing wrong with getting those same needs met from someone else, who can still represent that mother figure. (I know, this seems to go against MB, huh? LOL... but this is NOT about getting needs met from a spouse).

In this article, aimed at women, it talked of using a girlfriend as a confidante, or another one as your shopping buddy, and perhaps a friends' mother as a mother figure for you too. Because quite frankly, some mothers don't have those instinctual motherly abilities. Just because someone can physically have a child, doesn't mean they are able to raise one as well.

Having come from a home where my mother just wasn't available emotionally, I can honestly say that some women just don't have it in them to parent. Perhaps your W is one of these women?

And if what you want is POSITIVE female role models for your son, then make it happen through friends and family members, who would love to spend time with your son.

I do that on a bit of a flipside. I have 3 sons who haven't seen their dad since June 2003, at his choice. The oldest son, who is almost 5, misses he dad tremendously at times. He is in counselling to help him deal with it all. But he is also getting "male bonding" time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> with some POSITIVE male figures whenever possible. The 'big brothers' association is out there, and open for boys aged 6 and up. I have married friends who come by and visit for dinner now and then... one friend inparticular, takes Eric out to see the trains in town (both are big train fanatics).

Yes, it would be nice if the situation allowed for my boys to be with their father. But he's not available to them, emotionally. He has other priorities, which is fine, as those are HIS choices. But being the only real parent in their lives, it is up to ME to ensure that they still have some male nurturing (? is that the right word here?); something that I just can't do myself, even if I wanted to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

Thanks for your insight dewt, I appreciate it.

One day shortly after I married my W and then 6 years later I found a letter my mom wrote to a close friend of hers.

In it she stated her lifes desire to make sure our marriage is ended regardless of the consequences.
In it she wrote: Dear XXX (her friend) I have got to figure out a way to end my sons marriage to this woman, to come between them and tear their marriage apart and turn them against one another. My lifes goal will be this accomplishment and I will not be satisfied until they get divorced and my son comes home to me. I don't care if they have children or not, I don't care how my potential grandchildren are affected. My son doesnt deserve a life of happiness or joy. I wish I never would have given birth to that disappointing POS son of mine, he is nothing but a major life let down and a complete embarrasment to me, his mother. This [censored] needs to understand that his mother comes first, not his wife or any children he may have. I have to make it a life goal to destroy his marriage. I wish I never had this child, he affected my life and now I am going to destroy his the way he destroyed mine.

6 years later:

Dear XXX, Well I am slowly succeeding in destroying his marriage, I am so happy!!!!
I found out that they are going to seperate!!!! hopefully he'll see the light and get this divorce that he needs to get. This marriage has got to end and I could careless about my grandsons outcome, he should go to an adoption agency as far as I am concerned, he would be better off anyway, my son is such a worthless POS as a human being. This stupid [censored] son of mine needs to be controlled by his mother and I am slowly and methodically getting my control back of him. I am so happy I have succeeded in coming between my son and his wife, I dont care about his family, thats not important, what is important is that I have control of him and make him pay for hurting his mother by leaving my home and marrying and having children he does not deserve.
Now I have to do everything I can to expedite this divorce that I want for my son and show him that I am a hurt woman and I will destroy his pathetic life every chance I get.


This is my mom, nice huh?

I only wonder where I got my desire to have and nuture a family from, I guess I had to learn it on my own.

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: HunterFox ]</small>

Well...

but if something looks like a duck
quacks like a duck
and waddles like a duck...

chances are.....

the behaviors and things that you hurt from and are afraid of....
the only control you have is not doing those things to your son...which you are not doing....

BUT
if your wife's behaviors are similiar to your mom's....

then know this...

there is NOTHING you can do to change your wife..

nothing...

(this has to be true logically because if you could ...you already would have)

your wife's CHOICE to act as such a putrid influence in your child's life...is her choice alone...regardless of her forked tongue... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

the choice of how much you continue to expose your child to her influence and neglect (financial) is somewhat in your control....

I am not pro-marriage
nor am I marriage at any cost...

I haven't given up on your marriage...but I sure have given up on your marriage with your wife the way she CHOOSES to live it today....

where are YOUR boundaries...

what about inviting wife to every activity son is in...
opening up that window of opportunity of invitation with you and him....
gather her in to the JOY of being a family....
and expect nothing in return...
with or without her you go and you do...

but drop all relationship talk...
learn to babble back about her wanting to learn to drive...and you buy her a car....
and her wanting to go to school...

sounds nice dear...
it'd be great if you knew how to drive...etc...
quit the power stuggle

feed your son before he goes to his moms...

quit all the powerstuggling

quit exposing yourself to your mom's letters..if she is toxic to you ...decrease contact...and limit exposure....

You keep asking your wife the same question and she keeps answering it the same way with her actions....

hunterfox....
look in to parents without partners....each community pretty much has one...
time to change your focus on you and son...and move towards doing this alone....without giving up on your wife by anymeans...but without doing the same old song and dance...

find a new focus..
quit look to your wife for support...find it in other places...

your wife is gonna notice...
no doubt about that...

Dewt's doing it....he's doing that really well...other things...eh ...not so well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(kidding dewt...but I still don't like your rant)

ark

Hunter,

Listen to ark he's bang on... (even if he doesn't like my rant)

Drop the relationship talk... do it in a subtle way...

You are sure your mom actually wrote all that? That's pretty twisted... (you still talk to her?)

I know what you mean about wondering where you got the family values thing...

I got mine from my Dad. It's a simple matter of being everything he's not.

dewt

Ark, There are 2 things I choose to do in life.

1, Is be a father to my son and grow his life as best I can at this time. I have learned all aspects of what I need to do for his physical growth. I am REAL concerned for his emotional stability because I can see how this whole situation with me and his mother is affecting that. I do keep him out of situations that would be detremental as best I can.

2, Is I choose to stand by my W during her crisis and see her thru this even as wretchingly painful as it is at times. I am limiting talk and conversation and doing things, I have spread myself real thin. I very easily could blow the whole marriage off and say "poof be gone" but I remember all the reasons I married her in the first place, and quite frankly even with what I have been thru with her I would marry her all over again, just do things much much differently.
She told me the other day how amazed she is that with all she has put me thru that I am still willing to be there for her. She said I love you very very much HF but honestly I don't know what I want out of life right now and if you decide to go on without me then I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> Hunter,

Listen to ark he's bang on... (even if he doesn't like my rant)

Drop the relationship talk... do it in a subtle way...

You are sure your mom actually wrote all that? That's pretty twisted... (you still talk to her?)

I know what you mean about wondering where you got the family values thing...

I got mine from my Dad. It's a simple matter of being everything he's not.

dewt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes she wrote all that, I typed it word for word from her letters I have.

HF, are you in counselling?

There are obviously some MAJOR issues with your own mother here, that MUST be dealt with. You cannot say that you have, or else you never would have brought it up in this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as your mother goes, it is SHE who doesn't deserve to have a son! (NOT the other way around!)

You cannot work on your M, and be a great partner until you work on YOU.

I can relate to the chaos you are going through. It's a roller coaster ride that you are choosing to stay on. I know all about the fear of the unknown, and worrying about what to do if you were to get off of the ride... but get off the ride you MUST!!!

As ark^^ suggests, look into alanon meetings to help you in your healing process. There is tons of information online too, so you can start there if you're more comfortable. Actually, all of her (ark's) suggestions are (as usual), fantastic.

You seem very reluctant to go forward with any ACTIONS to ease the situation you're in? Why do you think that is? (for me, it's always been the fear of the unknown... my life has always been chaotic, and I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with it when that's gone, or near gone).

And you still haven't answered my question from a few weeks ago: what is keeping you from getting the child support that your son deserves, and that your W has an obligation to provide? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

DID DEWT CALL ME A HE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hunter...

I very easily could blow the whole marriage off and say "poof be gone" but I remember all the reasons I married her in the first place, and quite frankly even with what I have been thru with her I would marry her all over again, just do things much much differently.

I don't think anyone can or should blow their marriage off easily...
that's not what I am saying at all....

the definition we love around here about insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...

I am telling you to quit ALL relationship conversations...
they are getting you no where...she answers back with nebulous babble and blame....

you want her attention that you are serious about marriage...then do it with actions....

quit all questions/references to her bar escapades
do not take any more drunk at three in the morning phone calls...

do not engage in her blaming talks about your actions causing her to do this or that...or be this or that....

quit enabling...

go to Ala-non....
go to parents without partners for resources and support...NOT because she isn't in your son's life...but for support that you need..

you can't have it both ways...(none of us can)...
if you are feeling stressed and spread thin..
work on fixing it within yourself....
and I mean that kindly.....

her actions
her babble....
She said I love you very very much HF but honestly I don't know what I want out of life right now and if you decide to go on without me then I understand.

hmmmm....
which count
which make a difference...
words of I love you very very much....
or actions of I love you very very much....

boundaries are not actions that blow a marriage out of the water....
and you need to see her actions and or lack there of ...as well as yours....

ARK

I... er.. uh...

A TYPO!!!!

Er, ya... that's the ticket...

A typo.

Coulda happened to anyone.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

dewt

I was thinking of something she said the other day.

She told me that one of her biggest issues with me is the lack of follow thru.

She says she needs to see actions not words, I truely understand what she is saying.

She says "you have these goals but your follow thru is terrible"

Your a great thinker HF but..........

I would much rather show her actions than words but how can I show actions if she refuses to see them or is not willing to see them.

The other day we were talking about her going back to school, I told her it would be a good idea for her to do that, lets talk about it.

She told me we have been talking about it and nothing has been getting done on your end so there is nothing more to talk about.

I asked her when we talked about it and she could not find an answer.

I'm confused...

What has to be done on your end so that she can go back to school?

Karen, I spoke to her about his daycare situation. She asked me if we used her income could he qualify for assistance? I told her that her income was a little to high to qualify.

She said that when she goes back to school in Sept that she will be able to help a little then because of the student loans she will be getting. Then she thru in my face that her schooling might not happen if I dont help her get a car. Everything was about her her her.

I am soooooooo tempted to just throw in the hope towel and go for the jugular and forcible make her pay. She is frightened that I will get go unleash the child support thing on her and that her financial stability will be in crisis.

She said it herself today, I don't know how I could make it if I had to take care of him.

She told me today "if your having such a problem paying for everything then maybe you should sell your car and get something w/o payments" "get rid of this and that and maybe you would be able to afford to care for your son without coming to me" I'm thinking WTF, I have not asked you for dime one and bent over backwards when you were in need.

She keeps coming up with all of these wonderful ideas of how I can get support for him that does not involve her own finances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> I'm confused...

What has to be done on your end so that she can go back to school? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wants me to help her get car so she can work and go to school.

Dude.

I don't know what to say.

I understand your motivations. You care. You want to help. You want her to see that you care and want to help.

I don't think it's working.

It seems like you are enabling all her actions and attitudes.

I think she needs to grow up and I don't think you can help her with that.

I say that because I've needed to grow up too. For a long time. And I had to lose everything before I finally started to take some action. It may already be too late for me to get back what I've lost.

I don't know if I'd recommend a Plan B for you, but geez... I'm constantly wondering if you are taking care of one child or two...

Think about this advice very carefully, because really, I don't know you or her, or ALL the details of your relationship...

I think you need to step the heck back. Stop trying to direct her life. Stop trying to help. Enough is enough. It's not working. Time for her to grow up and it seems like it's something she's got to do on her own.

She can get her own car. Millions of Americans do.
She can get her own self to work. Millions of Americans do.
She can provide for her own schooling. Millions of Americans do.
She can provide financially for her child. Millions of Americans do.
She can balance her own budget. Say 'no' to the bar because, oops, child support payment is due on Friday...

Enough is enough. By trying to do all this for her, you are allowing her to continue doing what she is doing.

I'm not saying not to care, or to tell her to f**k off... no, not at all...

But you have your own responsibilities and a life to build for you and your son. THAT should be your priority. If she gets her sh*t together and wants to join you, it will be that much better a place for her to come too, and she will be more of a contributor. It seems that if you actually managed to coerce or otherwise bring her home, she would be ten times more the drain on you... financially, emotionally...

Make any sense?

dewt

Unless you have a piece of paper stating you have custody of your son, then legally, neither you nor your wife have custody. She can pick him up from daycare tomorrow and there would be nothing you can do about it if she refused to return him. Nothing. Possession is 9/10's of the law, if she had him and you went to court, they most likely would let her keep him, even though you have been his primary care giver, do not let this happen.

That is the first thing you need to get taken care of ASAP!

Please do not just give him over to her, their relationship will never what it could've been, he has bonded with you not her. His formative years have been with Dad.

Once you establish yourself legally, then ask the courts for child support, she is playing you right now to keep from having to pay anything, it is your son's RIGHT to be supported by BOTH parents.