I am a WS, separated from my W for three months, and as of right now things are not really progressing towards reconciliation despite my dedicated efforts at meeting her EN's and not LB'ing. First of all, it's hard to do from a distance. Not impossible, but hard. A big part of the problem seems to be that my mere presence seems to be a LB to my W. She tells me when I'm away she misses me, but when I'm around, she wants me to leave because all those "bad thoughts" keep running through her head and she can't escape them. My W is the sort of person who gets an idea in her head and can't change it. She tells me that she's convinced that all my efforts at regaining her trust (i.e. my efforts at meeting her EN's in many different ways) are just a sham, and that if she were to take me back I'd go back to my "old ways" again. My W has always rejected any consideration of the MB concepts, which is a prime example of what sort of person she is - very closed-minded to change. She's a "one chance" sort of person, and I've used my one chance up in her eyes.

I know this may not be in keeping with the whole MB approach, but... how does one make new friends in life, when the few friends I did have were all via my W, my W's family and thru our marriage? I moved here to be with her when we fell in love and got married, and never really expanded my horizons past the marriage - a mistake, despite the MB concept of POJA, because now I feel totally unprepared for "life after marriage". This was, in fact, one of my wife's major issues with me - my lack of developing and socializing with my own network of friends. Now that we've separated, and since it's become apparent to me that we will not be reconciling anytime soon, if at all, I have become rather despondent and lonely. I WANT to meet new friends - for myself, not just to show her that I can be a social person - but the fact is, I don't really know how to meet friends at this stage of my life. Most people my age are committed to a significant other and don't go out with singles, or don't go out looking to meet singles. Most men my age have a well-established network of friends, and it is hard for someone like myself to just "break in" and become a part of that. Men have their "cliques" just like women do.

If I DO go out looking to meet someone, inevitably it is to look for a woman. Why is that? I suppose I have a deep desire within me to replace the lost love and companionship that I had with my W. Meeting men just isn't going to fulfill that. :-)

I DO wish to reconcile with my W if she can ever find forgiveness in her heart. But I feel like just waiting around for that to happen is pointless, and even counterproductive to my health and well-being. I am an introverted type of person, so I really have to force myself to go out and do things socially - and then I generally don't have a good time while I am out. Inevitably when I do go out, it ends up being to a bar or club. That's where people hang out - at least around these parts - for better or for worse (to me, it is definitely "for worse" - I can't stand the loud music you can't talk over, and all the "gee don't I look hot" type of people, but as they say... beggars can't be choosey). When I do actually meet someone in a club, they are generally younger than me (I'm 41), sometimes many years younger, and they're also not really the type of person I can relate to. The fact is, people my age don't really go to clubs anymore - they've become disillusioned and disgusted with it long ago, I suppose.

The major problem for me right now is the fact that I'm separated, and not really ready for dating. It just wouldn't be fair to whomever I may meet to give the impression that when we go out, it is "a date". Dating, to me, is MUCH easier than just going out as friends. You can spend a fun evening with someone if it is "a date", and you literally don't even have to know the person - i.e. someone sets you up on a blind date. But how many "blind friends" have you ever heard of? Personal ads? Nope. They're geared towards people looking for something more than friendship, even though everyone seems to know it starts by being friends. It seems to me that women want to "date" more than they want to "just be friends". They generally already have friends, but they may not have a date - so that's what they're looking for.

So... I'm seeking any sort of advice on this "making new friends" topic, even though I realize it's not really a part of the MB concept. My one true interest in life is playing golf, so I do plan to try and get out and meet people that way. In fact, I do meet people a lot that way, but most of them aren't really looking for friends like I am - they're married, or otherwise caught up in their own lives. Generally, they are guys, and while I realize I do need guy friends as much, if not more than, female friends, I can't help but be disinterested in making friends with other guys. I'm not sure what it says about me, or my loneliness, but I really wish to have some female friends without dating or romantic pressures.

Making new friends is hard! Or is it? How do some of you handle the sort of situation I'm in?

Welcome to MB asb,

Unfortunately,this lack of companionship is another fallout from having an A.Usually "friends" of couples divide between who they know or "take sides".For you,seeking ANY friendship or otherwise with another woman is PROHIBITED right now.Why? Because you have a W that is not sure about reconciliation but if you are seen or heard to be with another woman well you can pretty much just shoot yourself in the foot and call it a day.The other pertinent reason is that you do not want to be tempted again by a woman and you can't have a respectful relationship with one now.If that is to ever happen you have to be divorced.You have shown yourself to unable to be with another woman safely and securely.

Now,what is your line of work? Are there any friendships to be made there? What about hobbies? Any church groups? Pets? I made some friends at a dog park that I used to go to.You start talking about your dogs and then the friendship follows.Do you have kids? How about meeting up with some other parents or starting a social of some kind?

I'll admit it may be more difficult to make friends as we age but that may not always be the case.I guess it may depend on where you are and if you have access to a lot of people.I live in a small but affluent town and there aren't as many women my age here as I'd like but I am one of those that doesn't need a whole bunch of friends to feel comfortable.A small group of close ones plus family keeps me happy.I also don't mind being alone.That is different than being lonely.It's a fine line that we walk when having relationships with the opposite sex.Sometimes it can be ok but other times it's just too risky.

Let's go back to you.What are you doing now to help your W feel good about reconciling? Maybe you are giving her vibes that you cannot be trusted still? How long was the A and how long has it been over(it is over right?)? Have you been in contact with the OW(hopefully not)? Have you been to counseling?

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>For you,seeking ANY friendship or otherwise with another woman is PROHIBITED right now.Why? Because you have a W that is not sure about reconciliation but if you are seen or heard to be with another woman well you can pretty much just shoot yourself in the foot and call it a day.The other pertinent reason is that you do not want to be tempted again by a woman and you can't have a respectful relationship with one now.If that is to ever happen you have to be divorced.You have shown yourself to unable to be with another woman safely and securely.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a lot of things going on here. I have explained them before, but basically my affair involved sexual experimentation with another M over the internet. As has been explained to me, this is generally much worse than your standard, "run of the mill" affair due to the gender confusion aspect (not with me, but with my W). This discussion could (and has) filled a whole thread by itself, but my intent here is to focus on making new friends.

Perhaps that initial paragraph will make you reconsider WHY I feel the need to move on here with my life. My W is, understandably and regretably, hurt in an extreme way right now and nothing I can do or say seems to make her heal. The only way it seems I can allow her the time and space to heal is to pull away - which, of course, sends the wrong message that I just don't care about her. I do care, but in caring, I am hurting. Talk about being a mess emotionally? I am filled with hurt, shame, guilt, embarassment - just about everything under the sun, including a sense of relief that my "little secret" is out and can be dealt with.

And I am dealing with it, through a therapist, since you asked. But it is a slow process, and it has only been three months since my W's discovery. This was not a pattern in my life, it was truly a one-time deal exacerbated by my inhibition-loosening pot habit (which I have since quit, by the way, cold turkey after many years). But she doesn't know that it was only once, and even though I've told her exactly what it was and why, I don't think she believes it. She just doesn't know what to believe anymore, unfortunately. I suppose no one can blame her.

Thanks for your response, by the way, and for asking. I forgot to start off with that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for my W... further complications - as a part of all of this, I think she has been seeing another guy. You say *I* cannot see anyone right now, and I agree. After all, it was I that breached my W's trust in me. But... she has now done the same to me, and has done it in a most deceitful way (by him parking his truck on the next street over, making excuse after excuse for why he is there late at night after her D - my stepdaughter - has gone to bed). This is someone I always suspected that she had feelings for, and is part of the reason WHY I probably did what I did - not to make any excuses for an inexcusable action of mine. But... as I have become fond of saying - nothing happens in a vacuum. She claims nothing is going on, and that may very well be. But... she also told me one evening that if I hadn't called when I did (I passed his truck parked around the corner), that "something might have happened". What does that tell me? EA, at the very least. He is married (unhappily) with three kids, so I would think this is a SA of convenience for both, but... I am trying not to think about it even as I type this. :-) I hurt her intensely, yes, but I am trying not to feel that I deserve the pain that I am now feeling over her actions.

For my own sanity, health and well-being, I feel forced to move on with my life now, and THAT is why I desire to make new friends and try and build a new life. Because to not do so is to wallow in self-pity and loneliness, and that is nearly akin to dying (or so it feels sometimes).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>Now,what is your line of work? Are there any friendships to be made there? What about hobbies? Any church groups? Pets? I made some friends at a dog park that I used to go to.You start talking about your dogs and then the friendship follows.Do you have kids? How about meeting up with some other parents or starting a social of some kind?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My work (engineering) is not a place where I would be able to meet women. My hobby is golf, and that may be my best route, but it's kind of like the lottery - who you get matched up to play with on any given day. Generally, that would be three men, or two men and a 68 year old woman. LOL I suppose ONCE I golfed with women around my age whom I felt instantly attracted to, but I was involved at the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I don't go to church, but am beginning to seriously consider it. Religion has never held much sway with me, but perhaps it is time to open my heart to it. It is hard for me, however, being so logical and not growing up having faith.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>I am one of those that doesn't need a whole bunch of friends to feel comfortable.A small group of close ones plus family keeps me happy.I also don't mind being alone.That is different than being lonely.It's a fine line that we walk when having relationships with the opposite sex.Sometimes it can be ok but other times it's just too risky.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have always been a bit of a loner, being introverted and all. Being alone has never bothered me much, but it sure bothers me right now. I suppose "and this too shall pass", but I've also always felt that the shell that my life was contained in, while protective and safe, was also debilitating. Now, more than ever, I have the perfect opportunity to crack that shell and break out into the world like a newborn chick. I don't want to let another opportunity like this, where I am motivated to do so, to go to waste. I simply don't know where to start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>Let's go back to you.What are you doing now to help your W feel good about reconciling? Maybe you are giving her vibes that you cannot be trusted still? How long was the A and how long has it been over(it is over right?)? Have you been in contact with the OW(hopefully not)?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess I answered most of that already. I am doing my best to meet my W's EN's, such as helping around the house on weekends with repairs and home improvements, I help her with paying the mortgage each month, I try to meet her need for conversation in a loving way, etc. However, she is also obviously NOT meeting my needs anymore in terms of openness and honesty, and she is LB'ing in a major way by having this "friend" of hers over late in the evenings. But, my W always refused to look at MB, so she really has no concept of EN's or LB. She just does whatever she feels like doing. Considering what I did to her, I suppose a part of me can't blame her. But then again, she has basically sealed the deal on our M by HER actions, and as I say, I've pretty much decided I need to move on. Moving on is not something I look forward to, as it will involve much MORE hurt and pain when the divorce process begins. We have a house to deal with (which is in both our names still), and she has refused to consider selling it, while also telling me she can't pay me half the equity in it to which I am entitled in this state. So it will get uglier before it gets any better, and I sure do wish I could avoid it. Talking hasn't helped much - my W isn't very good at expressing her feelings to me, and when she does, it is more like lashing out at me in anger and hurt over what I did. I hope she could forgive me someday, but if that doesn't come before the divorce process begins, then it will NEVER happen. Because a divorce is like a war when you cannot agree on something like dividing up assets.

Well, I said I wanted to focus on the friendship aspect, but I suppose I needed to yet again provide some background. I do realize my situation isn't really in keeping with MB principles, but I still hold out with my last few shreds of hope that something positive will happen between me and my W before it is too late. But those are some pretty thin shreds indeed, and therefore I feel like I need to begin preparing for the next phase of my life, wherever that may lead me.

Thanks for the concern, Octobergirl. I don't know if you'll have anything else to add here, but your words are appreciated. Best wishes to you.

Hi again,

Well,I guess in my sleepy state last night I hadn't bothered,which I normally do,to look at your member number.I'm sorry that you had to explain everything all over again.Usually I go back and read people's other posts if I don't know them and their story.

I can understand now why you might be desiring a friendship with other women,perhaps not for the more obvious reasons? Do you feel like you can have more meaningful non sexual relationships with them than men? I'm sorry too that your wife isn't helping the situation either.It's just sad when you realize that we all have the power within us to make things better especially in our marriages but decide to keep going along the path that seems to lead nowhere.

I guess I don't have a wealth of information to give you on how to make friends where you are except what I mentioned.Making new friends with women can be difficult.On the one hand they may feel threatened because you would be coming to them on your own versus through other friends and on the other hand they may feel as though you have an agenda,like dating or strictly sexual.But again,I made some guy friends at the dog park.Maybe if you like other sports or work out at a gym you could get to know women there.

It's probably going to take a leap of faith to get out there and make these relationships happen.I know if I didn't put myself out there in my town I just would rarely meet anyone new.I have met several mom friends at my childrens school,it's always been a good way to meet other adults.

I hope some others will chime in here soon.Take care.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi, asb.

I, too, am looking for ways to meet friends. I'm 43 and it's not too easy at our age, is it? My H is *not* a social person but I do need one to three close friends in my life. Although Harley says to do all the fun stuff together, my H would be miserable in a social environment, and our counselor says that if making friends is important to me, and unpleasant to my H, then I need to get out and make friends and leave my H alone. So, I'm trying.

I'm fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood that is very active. Women's club, swim team for the kids, stuff like that. Are there any social activities in your neighborhood or apartment complex that you could go to or volunteer to help with? That's working out okay for me. I now know some names and faces and we wave when we pass or speak when we see each other at the grocery store. No close friendships, but occasional social acknowledgement, which is a start.

What hobbies do you have besides golf?
My daughter and I take taekwondo. Maybe you could start taking martial arts, or yoga, or going to a gym. There's a little chatting that goes on before and after class (martial arts, yoga) or at a gym you'll probably need someone to spot you at times.

You could volunteer - at a hospital, a museum, with a theater group (now THERE is a way to make friends!!! Theater folk are so interesting, and so outgoing), or train to be a volunteer fireman.

Do you play an instrument? Community bands are a great way to meet people with similar interests.

Tell us a little more about where you live and what you like to do. Maybe we can come up with something that is attractive to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by turtlehead:
<strong>Tell us a little more about where you live and what you like to do. Maybe we can come up with something that is attractive to you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I live on Long Island, so I'm not exactly at a loss for the opportunity to meet people. There are far too many people here for my liking, but I suppose in this instance that is a good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There are really only a few things I truly enjoy doing, and as my therapist has pointed out, the pattern in my life is that I willingly choose things that are solitary in nature, due to my introverted personality. Golf, for instance - yes, it can be a social event. But to me, the game of golf is singular - it is you against the course, or you against yourself. I go to the gym almost every day, but again, that is a solitary thing. I rarely find the time or the words to interact with anyone while I am there. A conscious decision, yes, but if I were to try and tell myself, just talk to someone while you're there, I will become extremely uncomfortable and chances are I will not do it.

My therapist suggested that since I enjoy golf, then I need to join a golf club in order to make new friends. I thought that was a great suggestion, but then as usual I bogged down in it. Where do I go? How do I go about it? It's been raining here, so the courses are shut down, but I have vowed that on the next nice day, I will stop in to a golf course on my way home and inquire about such a thing.

Turtlehead, I did think the volunteer fireman idea was a great one. Again, I'm not sure I'll follow through, but here on LI, all fire stations are staffed by volunteers, and they are famous (infamous perhaps LOL) for their comraderie.

I do play the guitar, but I have always been painfully shy about playing in front of other people. Just gives me a weird feeling inside. Actually, I think that is something I need to explore with my therapist - why do I feel that way even though part of me knows that I play the instrument very well? Lack of self-esteem I suppose?

I tend to sabotage myself when trying to come up with ideas, as I suppose you can probably tell. But I'm trying to overcome that. I actually found a website this morning called craigslist.org, and someone had posted a message that they were going to be starting a social group, for people exactly like me - somewhat lonely, lives in transition at middle age, but looking to break free of those chains that we wrap outself in. I emailed her, and when she gets enough people together, we are going to all meet at a local library! That made me feel very good, the fact that I've actually done something positive about my situation. I need to do more of that.

I guess that's about it... I do enjoy reading, but that's a singular pursuit. My internet time is the same. Almost everything I do is introverted in nature, and I'm definitely going to try and change that. Change doesn't come easy, but I guess the hardest part is just getting the ball rolling... As for volunteering, social work and the theater, I must honestly say that for whatever reason, I cringe at the thought of those things. I started to try and analyze my feelings, but I soon said to myself that the answer is, I simply need to do things that *I* like doing, whatever they may be. They just need to incorporate other people, that's all - like joining a golf club instead of playing golf by myself.

Hey, thanks for the words, Octobergirl and turtlehead. I wish you both all the best in your own lives. If you happen to think of something, please pass it along!

Octobergirl, I just read a response of yours in the "Inside the mind of a BS" thread...

I felt so terrible reading your words, because they might as well be my W's words. She too seems to have found "stable ground", but at the expense of her being numb and in shock over my actions. She told me "at least I'm not crying all the time anymore, and I can function". But she's totally withdrawn from me as a result.

My W has said to me "I wish we could just go back four years and start all over again", but obviously that is impossible. She can't find it within herself to forgive me, and it sounds like you are in a similar place regarding your own WS. Do you ever feel you will be able to forgive him?

I am so sorry for what we do to others, via our thoughless, selfish acts. I too am numb over the whole thing, with guilt and shame and everything else under the sun piled on top.

You know, when I read your own story - and with you knowing the rather gory details of mine - I became a little bit surprised that you would say to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry too that your wife isn't helping the situation either.It's just sad when you realize that we all have the power within us to make things better especially in our marriages but decide to keep going along the path that seems to lead nowhere.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given your own tragically painful experience, I figured you would put yourself in my W's shoes and understand her actions. I doubt you can truly understand mine, but it does surprise me that you would see fit to respond to me, as someone who probably mirrors your own H in your mind. Maybe you WERE just too tired last night? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You see, your words are the words I speak to my W. I understand her pain, but I don't understand how she cannot look forward to a better time and place, and instead insists on looking backward and reliving the thing over and over again every time she sees me. My actions were terrible and inexcusible, yes - but thru therapy I have been able to see that I am NOT a bad person. I am simply a human being who made a terrible human error of judgement. I will pay for that my whole life with the memory of what could have been, what should have been (that new Keith Urban song keeps running through my head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . But the fact is, we CAN and DO make choices about which path we will follow. As the betrayer, perhaps it is natural that I would choose a different path from my W - but that is still a choice she has made, to take the path where we have no opportunity to work on our problems together. I am willing, but she isn't.

Well, I just wanted to say that I am terribly sorry for what you yourself have been going through, and I hope for your sake - not for his - that you can somehow find the strength within yourself to forgive your WS for his actions. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting, of course. You forgive to release yourself from the pain, the hurt, the anger, and the numbness. It is a gift you give to yourself. I was reading a religiously-oriented book last night called "When Love Dies" by Judy Bodmer. If you haven't read it, maybe it will help you. Then again, that book is written from the standpoint of someone who saved her "hopeless" marriage. So maybe that's not where your mind is at, and perhaps the book would not have the same impact it did on me.

Best wishes, octobergirl. Things do always get better. I read a line last night - I think it was in that book I mentioned above. I loved the quote, I think it is christian-related somehow. It went something like:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember that nothing grows on the mountaintops - growth takes place in the valleys.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

asb3pe,

LONG ISLAND? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
You should find one or two folks there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was picturing you in a town of 1200 about 80 miles from the nearest grocery store <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You seem to know yourself well. I agree that if volunteer work and theater involvement don't give you a "warm fuzzy" then no point in pursuing them.

You have some good ideas already - that group at the library, volunteer fireman.

Maybe instead of some kind of performing gig with the guitar, you could find a songwriter's workshop or something? Something that puts you around like minded folks without putting you under a microscope?

You like reading - how about a book club?

I live in a metropolitan area and there are free "newspapers" with all kinds of upcoming events etc. in them. Lots of personal ads (fun to decipher, and a lot of entertainment seeing what folks will actually advertise for! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). But I digress. They usually also have lists of clubs and organizations - like a club that gets together and clears and improves hiking trails. Or a book club. Or dog owners clubs. Hey, do you bicycle? Maybe a biking club.