Just my opinion, but it seems that YOU are far more angry than any of BS.

I think we all struggle with the same demons, but all of our situations differ.

You sound like you were forced at gunpoint to end the A and choose your W.

Wow. I'm in the same boat as HopelessinNy. All I can think is Wow.

Let me be the first to point out that:

Supporting the FWS through FOG and WITHDRAWAL is the HARDEST part of OUR journey.

I read ANGER from you....pure HATRED....and I don't GET IT.

I'm greatful I'm not trying to deal with this situation myself, because I'm afraid I'd crumble like a piece of paper.

OH...one last thing...the OP..doesn't intentionally set out to hurt anyone ? I might agree, but I also think they have no morals or self respect...which makes their intentions pointless to me.

I hope you find peace somehow. I hope really that you find happiness. Your anger is very clear.

whiteknight...

do YOU want to get real about this...
your post is so superficial...and isn't anything that people on this site haven't heard over and over and over...

no one is surprized about how your OW made you feel...

what is surprizing is how you cling to the superficialness of your own affair....

all of it has been said before...

and your belief of what the betrayed spouse should do...again superficial bandaide...
blow jobs are easy...
dealing with the pain is hard...

blow jobs don't make the real issues go away...they are just an escape....from the pain...

and basically that is your cure...

an affair is your escape from the reality YOU created...
and you now it is your spouses job to help you escape from the the reality YOU created via blowjobs at the front door......
thats your road map to fixing what YOU yourself created ....

and when people say it's deeper than that....you accuse them of not wanting to "know" the truth...

TOW site will let you speak post after post about how good the affair made you feel...
you are welcome to it...and you will get tons of responses of yes yes yes yes...it's true....others' just don't understand....it's all about how it made/makes you feel good...

everyone gets it feels good...
but there's a little more to it than that....

why would a spouse need to know what the OP thinks?....

so much about the OP....in a lot of your posts..
so much the same mantra...about no one wanting to hear your side....
where is your spouse in all of this..
where is your marraige...

ark

You got it right that almost no one here really needs a play by play account of how the WS feels.Not that we don't care what they go through even though it is self inflicted.Most of us here who aren't new know this and any further "enlightenment" is hurtful.

While you want to romanticize the adultery,those of us as BS's get to see the real deal,up close and personal.Adultery is UGLY,there are no romantic songs,flowers,candles and gestures for us there is only PAIN and disgust.That is the reality.People are hurt and families are destroyed.

We do have a game plan and it's Dr.Harley's plan.He has counseled thousands of people and is educated and experienced enough to know what works so that's why we are here and use his methods.Our spouses are not our enemies but anything or anyone that tries to help destroy our marriage and family IS.This is why we hold contempt for those OP.We have not "invested" all our love,time,energy,caring,friendship,hopes and dreams,etc with the OP but we HAVE with our spouses,there's the difference.

Our spouses may have been "scammed" and then again,maybe not BUT it is clear that women or men that get involved with a married person have an AGENDA.They are willing to go that extra mile to get what they want because it's not just the attainment of a man/woman,their goal is to covet that which does not "belong" to them,another woman's husband or another man's wife.

We are not so blind as to pretend that nothing has happened or that we don't know what is going on.That is insulting.We know all too well and it hurts so we need no further graphic reminders.

O

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

hmmmm...THIS is what you call a FOG? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> OK, I believe a little bit of what you say is FOGGISH, but most of it is just pity on the WS. let me see if I can disect this a bit...bear with me, ok...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Imagine meeting someone who makes you feel different from you ever felt or have felt in so long. Do you LOVE this person? You don't know. Do you care about this person? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did this not happen with your Spouse when you first met her. I know when I met my spouse, we WANTED to meet each other needs. All of us go thru the "courtship" and that is what makes an Affair so fullfilling...It IS all new, It IS all fun...It IS fantasy at its best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you better be prepared to spread your legs and go down on him and swallow or whatever. Let him spank you or tie you up or whatever he wants. I do not want to come across like some lowlife pervert, but that's what he's been getting from OW, and that's that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, this one pissed me off. I will NEVER be the OW. If my H expects me to do what SHE did and says it to me, then he can just take a hike. Matter of fact, he HAS said to me "OW does this or that" and you know what, I finally looked him in the eye and said "I am NOT the OW so DO NOT expect me to be her. Steve Harley even says this to WS's...do not compare them to your spouse. It hurts our feelings and it makes us feel worthless. We, the BS are NOT the ones who had the affair. YOU are the one who went outside your boundries. Maybe YOU need to change somethings.

Whitenight...I am not trying to bash you...what we, me and Dad have is I think IMO a "different" situation. We are progressing along quite quickly and well. We speak to SH every single week and WH is coming around A LOT quicker than most WS on this board. I think our situation is NOT a good example for many WS or BS for that matter. I want things to move quickly and FAST for us because I have seen it happening so fast right now. I am very hopeful about our future.

I think some of what you ahve said rings true, but not all of it. A WS lives in a fantasy life...once leaving the BS, they just live in this world all on their own. No worries, no strings atached, nothing to hold them back, they are free as a bird to whatever they want with the OP. Once back in reality land, it is hard for them because REALITY hits and it HITS HARD...hmmm, you cant have sex anytime you want. Youv'e got 4 dogs, 3 kids and two cats in bed with you...None of this was true with the OP.

dont expect your spouse to swallow anything if she is not comfortable with it. For peats sake...if you were given a glass of urine and said "come on drink it, my OP drinks it, would that appeal to you and would you drink it just to please your WS?" NO I think not. OK, maybe urine is not a nice analogy. How about a bowl of roaches...

Do you see my point...you cannot expect us to be OP, we aren't. We can change a lot of things. We can change the way we percieve things, the way we treat you, the way we show love towards you, our attitudes, our selfishness, and the list goes on. BUT do not expect us to be the OP...

whiteknight - I read most of your post today before you got any replies, but I stopped before reading the "withdrawal" section. My initial conclusion: yep, this guy's still in the fog while trying to explain it; and you confirmed what I already knew: WSs are universally selfish - beyond their own recognition. But I've had the benefit of over three years on this forum

Nonetheless, thank you for your post. It can be very instructive for many BSs because it reveals extreme selfishness - something BSs need to understand about the character of a typical WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you drag this out as long as you can? Of course you do! Are you aware that your judgment is bad? Yes, Are you aware that the OP is showing bad judgment? Yes</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is where you and I part company. I existed in a desert of a marriage, too, while we cared for our sick and dying child. I had PLENTY of reasons to have an affair - by your standards - but I didn't. I would have loved a diversion from my daily pain, but I knew it was wrong and NOT the answer to my "isolation."

In times of crisis, our true character is exposed.

Simply stated, I have character and you do not.

All of us have the capacity to do the wrong thing, and at times, we do. Doing the right things vs. making the wrong choice is a composite of who we are. We ordinarily think who has good character and who has bad character by observations of ordinary moments. But how we react to extraordinary moments exposes the REAL character.

You KNOW what you did was a poor choice. So why continue to attempt to defend it?

So be it. But you can learn from this and develope the character you choose to. Similarly, I can regress and lose my character.

I think what repulsed posters here was your description of your withdrawal. In so many words, I believe these posters feel that you're still very much in denial and not yet expressing any remorse. Sure, you admit to having poor judgement, but with a caveat. You still want to blame your spouse for your poor choices, your lack of character.

In summary, your post has value to BSs who can hold their nose through your "withdrawal" portion. Yes, they're probably projecting some of their anger at you - a bit.

I invite you to REALLY work and look in the mirror. In a month or so, re-read what you posted and tell us if you have the same emotions.

Whiteknight,
I read your complaint about your treatment here on Jetgirl's thread.

You deleted what you said so I cannot comment personally. I will say that when this many MB'ers are set off, my radar is up.

WS's who come here looking for help and admitting that they were wrong WILL be helped. Without reading your words I can now only assume that this was not the case.

No kidding. I know how superficial some of my feelings are. I am ashamed of them. You want to really know what a jerk I feel like? I sometimes sit back and think about how pretty the OW is? Isn't that sickening? Even though I KNOW she is nuts! I do need to take some of my own advice. I should be way too busy with my own life and my wife than to think about that ***** who ruined my life, but it's happening. The reason for my post is to show how difficultthis is. I did not wake up one day and decide to hurt my W, my family, the OW and her fmaily. It just happened. I was an idiot. I am sick over it. If I could kill myself and die for a year and come back as a new person without these memories I would do it.

Why did I decide to go back to my W? Because I love her. I have always loved her. I would go n the middle of a desert with her and give her a million bucks and a gun. I trust her. I care about her. I know she deserved better than me. I would wish her well if she found someone better than me. She deserves the best. I am far from the best. I am good-looking, have money, have everything; but I am a cheater and that diminishes me to nothing.

It is true that I have still not told her. I am amazed she does not know; especially considering the way OW is lashing out against me. Maybe she's in deniel. I don't know. We don't talk about it. Truth be told, I have not told her because I don't want her to be hurt.

I don't need to tell her to know the devestation of the A. I don't need to know what's going on with the OW and her wacko life to know either. I have seen it all here. I wish no one here ever experienced the pain that you have.

OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND is my attitude. But what on earth am I supposed to do? My A was for an entire year. Memories aren't a light switch.

Perhaps I could forget her easier if she would get off my damn back! But being dragged to court to defende myself against false allegations and to try to get out of some crazy WIFE BATTERERS program that the judge wants me to go to (The RO was part of some DOMESTIC VIOLENCE DIVISION!!!!) keeps the OW in my mind.

Am I angry? You bet! I want to forget the OW! I want to concentrate on my life! I wish I could have just walked away ... but restraining orders and court and police crap instigated by OW and H to get some sort of revenge against me has just dragged this crap on longer.

For the record, I NEVER hit her or anyone else in my life! I am a pacifist. Maybe that's why I think about her still. Maybe that's why I am still so hurt. I am still wondering how someone can tell me they loved me and cared about me so much, and then turned on me in a quest for blood.

This I your cue now to tell me that I deserve it and that I should have known she was nuts and a loar and that if she was willing to turn on her H, why not turn on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard that all here before.

Good news for all! I ENDED THE A! I knew the relationship was wrong. I wanted to rebuild my marriage with my W. But OW shadows me like a dark cloud. I just want to be free to put my life back together. But OW and her H would rather spend their time making me into the BIG ENEMY instead of turning their attenion to their marriage.

Her H obviously has the same issue some of you have. Villify the OP, and all will be well.

I am sorry some of yu were hurt by knowing what the WS is going through; but I was being honest. It sucks. But time will tell where the true magic is. In years to come, hopefully I will still be with W. That's what I want.

That's what I want for some of you too. I wish everyone the best of luck. If I can answer any questions or help in any way, I would like to.

I sometimes sit back and think about how pretty the OW is? Isn't that sickening?
Not really. You did have a relationship with her, even if it was illicit.
No one expects you to "just get over it".

I did not wake up one day and decide to hurt my W, my family, the OW and her fmaily.
Almost always this is the case.

It just happened.
No, it didn't "just happen". At some point, you made a conscious decision to do it.

It is true that I have still not told her. I am amazed she does not know;
Maybe on some level she does and doesn't want to deal with it. This is pretty typical for a bs.

Truth be told, I have not told her because I don't want her to be hurt.
How can honesty will hurt her? It's the affair that will hurt her, not your telling her.

I don't need to tell her to know the devestation of the A. I don't need to know what's going on with the OW and her wacko life to know either.
What are you gonna do when your wife finds out? Better she hears it from you than finds out later on her own (or from wacko).

Good news for all! I ENDED THE A! I knew the relationship was wrong. I wanted to rebuild my marriage with my W.
How can she be a partner in rebuilding, if it's not broke down? (Your wife doesnt know about the affair)

That's what I want for some of you too. I wish everyone the best of luck. If I can answer any questions or help in any way, I would like to.
Hmmm? A different attitude (much better) than a few of your other posts.

I've been reading this on and off the whole afternoon. Obviously, my reading can't catch up the posting.

I do feel the angry with all the BS here, b/c I am one of them. But what I did was to hold myslef back and see how a WS thinks, and how toxicated they are. But if my WH thinks this way, it really sickening me, I don't know I want to have him back.

On the other hand, it helps me to see how the chemical works on his brain. Frankly, I admire WN's courage to tell all of these. I am glad that you are back to your wife and work on your M. But you said that you don't want to hurt your W by not telling them. That is not right. She knew it, unless she does not love you. Being not honest hurts way more than your A. Please tell her and really change your self.

Then come back to read your own posting one year after.

worthatry - from your post, "WSs are universally selfish - beyond their own recognition.". Are we defining a stereotype here? Would I then be within reason to counter with, "BSs are universally martyred - destined to sainthood."?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please tell her and really change your self.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easier said than done. What do I do --- walk in the otherroom and say, "Hey, honey! Guess what? I was screwing &^%$* thorughout 2003 and I finally broke it off with her, and that's why she's causing all these legal problems for us. It's not because I fired her. Let's go on a vacation and work things out, ok?"

I just don't know what to say or how to say it. I have had so much drama for so long, I'm just letting some of the dust settle in my life. I know I created the drama. But how much more pain do I need right now?

My W does deserve honestly. I know this. We all know this. I guess in some sort of sick way, I also don't want the OW to "WIN." What I mean by that is --- I think part of the reason she is causing so much legal chaos is so my W will find out. B-tch.

OK, I'll take some advice. Has anyone ever been told by their WS about the affair BEFORE you found out or assumed it on your own?

ok..this thread had piqued my curiosity. What is the title of the original thread?

No- and to be honest, white knight- I guess it really wouldn't make a diffrence anyway- what's done is done- he had an EA with a 21 yo -it hurts more because the intimacy of sharing things w/ someone else is hard for a woman to take-it makes me sick- but all I can is deal with it- and take it one day at a time- there are days when I am so mad- I hate him- then there are days when I am so upset and then something comes over me- and I just get stronger- because I have to- MY life depends on it- people in my life besides him- need me- that is the difference- I feel for your wife- being there- and knowing is bad- but not knowing is only worse-for you with the guilt and for her living with someone she thinks she knows- screw the OW- i don't want to sound bitter- but the true side of a sneak always comes out- she is making you pay for a temporary choice that could cost you a permanent committment.

whitenight - hey man. didn't see this before, but the probable cause of your legal problems (if I'm reading this right) is that you fired the woman you were having sex with? You were in some way her boss, superior, etc...? regardless of an A, that is a BIG problem.

moc:

I wish it were that simple. She has NOT asked me for any $$$ or made any case about that. Instead, she and her H wrote that I have been stalking her and threatening to kill her children. Her H even filed a police rpeort that I showed up at his house and threatened him. She has sent numerous e-mails to the State Prosecutor (that my lawyer got) where she is practically begging him to arrest me again and again for stalking her and that she wants this to go to triel and she wants me to go to jail. She even came up with some ways to 'set me up" so that I violate the restraining order.

The LEGAL SYSTEM is NOT like it is on TV. NYPD BLUE and all those other shows are bull****. No one investigated anything. No one questioned her about her motives or the situation or called me for alibis. No one cared about my side.

I won't say too much in case this wacko is ;urking aorund somewhere ... but I have some expensive and smart lawyers who are going to hopefully fix all this.

Sadly, this is probably OW's way of making sure I never forget her. Well, guess what? It's working!

I do not want anyone's sympathy. I know I won't get it here anyway. All I can offer anyone here is to show what it's like to be ON THIS SIDE and to PROVE that restraining orders and gettign the police involved does not fix anything. It makes it worse. Believe me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whiteknight:
<strong>What do I do --- walk in the otherroom and say, "Hey, honey! Guess what? I was screwing &^%$* thorughout 2003 and I finally broke it off with her, and that's why she's causing all these legal problems for us. It's not because I fired her. Let's go on a vacation and work things out, ok?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, that's not a bad start. Better than not telling her at all.

If OW is causing a lot of "legal" problems, that's a good reason to come clean. If it's a bizarre as you claim it is - threatening to kill her children, etc. - you may as well open the flood gates.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by moc:
<strong> worthatry - from your post, "WSs are universally selfish - beyond their own recognition.". Are we defining a stereotype here? Would I then be within reason to counter with, "BSs are universally martyred - destined to sainthood."? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Defining a stereotype? You bet!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Would I then be within reason to counter with, "BSs are universally martyred - destined to sainthood."? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. That would be a classic example of minor premise, major conclusion.

I'd be more than happy to debate the morals of BS vs WS if you'd like. Go ahead, make my day.

WAT

whiteknight...

I had no idea you hadn't disclosed your affair...

and the fact that there is so much legal fall out....

holy heck...you my friend are no typical WS!!

No wonder you are stuck where you are at....
you haven't even begun to deal honestly with the truth of your actions.....

You heap self loathing and self indulging punishment upon yourself...and position yourself in a place with no respite or peace....

sounds like a pretty lonely and scary place to be.....

there are posts after posts about why you should tell...
for every counter thrust of why you shouldn't tell the truth is the fact that your wife has the right to make informed decisions about her life...
that she as a child of God is entitled to knowledge that you are with-holding from her...

for her sake.
for your sake.

Your perseverating on the OP is alarming in the realm of what the OP has done to you...but makes more sense knowing you are not in any type of marital recovery.....

you are clinging to the known...because the unknown is always scary...and your's even more so...

your rationalization runs deep because you really are not addressing the real issues....
and the real consequances of your actions....

the time to choose is at hand....
I hope you find peace...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is true that I have still not told her. I am amazed she does not know; especially considering the way OW is lashing out against me. Maybe she's in deniel. I don't know. We don't talk about it. Truth be told, I have not told her because I don't want her to be hurt </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean you haven't told her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> No wonder you are still Angry! You my friend have got to sit down and talk to your W.. You have got to get this off your chest. You cannot start the healing until you disclose this A to your W..Maybe I missed it, but why did you have the A in the first place? Do you blame anything in the marriage? Were you having problems in the marriage?

oops, that was supposed to be from Momto3boys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />