Thanks. Good Advice I truly appreciate it. I'm tired of worrying about it. It has consumed every ounce of me right now and it's only making things worse. I have a counseling appointment today to discuss all that has gone on.

Well, Is this all too familiar or what. All I can say is I have been there , done that and had all done to me to.
Don't listen to any of W's ranting that you are just paranoid. First off this is your senses picking up on a problem that is DEFINITELY there.
She only says this hoping it will throw you off or delay your finding out the worst.
I would like to say you're Wife is not cheating (either Physically or emotionally) but that would not help you at all. Truth is you already know whether she is or not whether you want to admit it or not. If this has went on for more than 30 days and she is still working with this man it's probably already to late. She has most likely already slept with the man more times than she can count. Again I have been where you are and I speak from experience. The question to you now is what are you willing to live and put up with?
First things first.
1) I would (if you haven't already)is NOT ask but DEMAND that your Wife quit this job that keeps her in contact with other man.
Second: Immediately contact his Wife and sit down with her in private with all your evidence and find out just what she knows, when she knew it and what is happening in the enemy camp. Make no mistake about this you are at WAR and this is a battle for your marriage and family. It will not hurt to bring this mans wife into your camp as she will no doubt become your strongest Allie or at worst a thorn in his side by slowing down and hindering his meeting and sleeping with your wife.
One way or another the damage is already done to your marriage (Maybe more than can be repaired)and you can only benefit from contacting his wife at this point. Don't let your wife make you feel bad about doing this because they(he and your wife) have had no problem doing this to you.
Good luck and God bless.
RDW1455

KD -
This is my first post on this forum, but Damn, you've stolen my story! My wife and I are going the the EXACT same thing.

My wife works closely with this OM 8 yrs her Senior. They have been "friends" for almost 3 yrs. Hinesight, they have been having an EA for almost 1.5 yrs. About 3 months ago, his marriage ended and his EX solely blames my W for their separation and impending divorce. I have always just thought they were close friends, nothing but friends (like female-friends I've had in the past).

Recently, my suspisions we're kicked into gear when I found her on her cellphone, in her car, in the garage with someone at almost 1am. She had been out bowling with her workteam, which the OM is on. She never really answered my question of who it was, but she implied she was talking to her mother. Phonebills don't lie. It was this other guys phonenumber. They work together all day, they saw each other all night long, do they really need to talk 20 minutes at the end of the night.

Two nights ago I discussed my concerns with her about this OM. In my heart, I hope there has been no PA, but who knows. She swares its just close friends, but she has admitted a long time physical attraction to him (Danger Will Robbinson!!!) The discussion was good for me, but now she has all but completely withdrawn from me. I am seeing a counsellor for the first time tomorrow. Sounds like we're in the same boat, KD. I'll try to keep everyone updated on how it goes for me.

OhioDave

<small>[ April 22, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: OhioDave ]</small>

KD...and OD!

There is a fairly new book that I think would help both of you. It's a book recommended by the Harleys called "Not Just Friends", by Shirley Glass.

It goes into great detail about situations at work like your wives describe. It explains what is happening in the workplace today and what to do about it. Very clearly says where the appropriate boundaries lie and how to keep them that way.

If you all haven't; you need to download the EN & LB questionnaires and fill them out. THEN download another set of questionnaires and fill them out as if you are your wife. The filling out as though you were your wife is a very good exercise in empathy. It helps you put yourselves in your wife's shoes.

Of course it would be ideal if your wives would also fill out the questionnaires as well. The way to approach it is take your questionnaires once they're filled out and tell them what you have learned as a result of the exercise - and how much you would like to learn from them if they would be willing to fill them out too.

KD - no question that your wife had/is still having and EA. Let this be your wakeup call. NJF covers EAs in a very thorough way. EAs are very dangerous to marriages; often more dangerous than PAs in my opinion.

Other excellent must read books are by Willard Harley and available through this website "His Needs, Her Needs, Surviving An Affair and Give & Take".

Blessings, CSue

Dave, let me know how your session goes.

Dave, let me know how your session goes. I had my first today. Counselor told me that I had alot to be concerned about but she also told me it was the wrong thing to call this guys wife. She made a good point. What good is it going to do for me? Even if something is going on what am I going to get accomplished by calling her? I firmly believe that it was nothing more than an EA. My wife can't quit her job and I can't expect her too. She has a really good job. She has told me that from now on any conversations they have will be strictly work related. Give me some feedback.

Boy - You sure sound alot the way I did in the beginning, and your W sounds like mine.

My W was having an A. I tried to ignore the evidence for 4 months - asked her 4 times - she denied/explained some BS story 4 times. She was having an A and admitted it(3 weeks ago), 3 months after I had more than enough proof. I confronted her with the proof 3 months ago. I had phone bills, a note she had written about OM and phone recordings, yet it took her 3 months to admit. I started my part of Plan A months ago and think it helped her get to admission. My W too made 120 cell phone calls/month - over 60 of them to OM. Phone bills showed she talked to OM almost 3 times every workday ,usually between 7:30 and 9:00 AM, 11:00 AM and 1:30 PM, and between 3:30 and 5:00PM. They also showed she talked to him on weekends when I was away - two times on weekends were just before two of the times she called me and said she wanted a D.

In the past she called OM just a friend and he was helping her in her search to change careers - he was helping her get interviews with his company to work on his team.

At the time I gave her the benefit of the doubt, but she used that against me - I didn't see the truth because I did want to believe the truth, yet I suspected all along. My W's carrer search has somewhat died down over the past month - HMMM I wonder why. I guess the fantasy of working with the OM all day and F*****g during their free time just doesn't seem as much fun now.

I would be very, very suspicious if I were you. If I had not been trying to ignore my gut feeling for so long, maybe I wouldn't feel like such a fool now. I was right all along.

We are just staring to address the A now. I cannot give her the benefit of any doubt right now and cannot trust what she says or does. Maybe, in time, that trust will build - we'll see- there is a lot of pain to work thru and a lot of trust to earn.

I hurt less often now than before. I had to get to a really low point first. Then I decided, the hurt is either in charge of me, or I am in charge of it. I still hurt, but I do a better job of controlling when I and how I let it affect me now.

Good luck, and God Bless my fellow MBer.

<small>[ April 23, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: apache03 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kdfeild:
<strong> Dave, let me know how your session goes. I had my first today. Counselor told me that I had alot to be concerned about but she also told me it was the wrong thing to call this guys wife. She made a good point. What good is it going to do for me? Even if something is going on what am I going to get accomplished by calling her? I firmly believe that it was nothing more than an EA. My wife can't quit her job and I can't expect her too. She has a really good job. She has told me that from now on any conversations they have will be strictly work related. Give me some feedback. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First it's important to find a counselor who is pro marriage and deals with issues related to infidelity. I'm not impressed by your counselors advise "Counselor told me that I had alot to be concerned about but she also told me it was the wrong thing to call this guys wife. She made a good point. What good is it going to do for me?" she agrees that you have a lot to be concerned about, but doesn't think you should talk to the OMs wife? What good will it do you?? well, for one you will have an ally that has a vested interest in keeping your wife and her husband apart, a little help in doing that never hurt. Secondly it's just as much HER business as it is yours, she has a right to know and I don't know how you can consider not telling her. Your wife is most certainly having atleast an emotional affair, that is bad enough. don't fool yourself in to thinking that as long as they haven't had sex it's not an affair, it is. Affairs often lose their appeal when they are no longer a secret, you are helping her to keep it a secret.

Of course your wife doesn't like what she reads here "a bunch of people with no lives"?? We have lives! Unfortunately most of them have been torn apart by infidelity. and not just the lives of the betrayed, also the lives of many betrayers here. Your wife may change her mind if she decides to post here and LISTEN to what's being told to her. Those who have managed to put their marriage back together are usually in stronger marriages than they ever were. If a stronger more loving marriage is what she is looking for, then following the MB principles is the best way I know of to get it.

My H and I are also in counseling but I honestly don't think it's doing any good. What I have learned HERE has been a much bigger help to me.

KDF,
I just read your entire post just now. Sorry don't know where I've been.

A few observations from a vet. A vet from the school of hard knocks.

IMHO your wife is manipulating you big time. She's using your issues with insecurity to defend her weak position. Her response to you about calling the OM's W. What did she say? The W would think that you are a "crazy, insecure psycho husband"

At a minimum your wife is having an EA with this guy. Does she acknowledge this? The best book I've read on the topic of EA's is Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends." Order it today!!

Glass talks about the new prevalence of EA's, especially those created between co-workers. These A's usually start out innocently. Just two co-workers who have mutual professional admiration for each other, but they can become just as addictive as a PA. Many times they become PAs.

She defines a relationship as an EA if it has all of these three facets:

secrecy: this is fairly obvious. Your wife has developed a "friendship" that involves secrecy. Her cell bill alone tells me this. In addition she had the presentation which involved the OM and she lied to you. My guess is that there have been numerous business lunches that touched on the personal side.

intimacy: to follow up on the above thought. These lunches, meetings, conversations begin professionally. After time they feel more comfortable together. Guards are dropped. Personal issues may be discussed. Likes and dislikes are revealed. A sort of dating is going on. They may share that they're both having marriage issues. They may connect in any number of ways but they feel the connection is special and they feel that they can share almost anything.

Your W has already admitted that she discussed your M with this OM and he did the same with her.

Some OM have a "white knight" complex so even if they aren't having M troubles they want to assist the "damsel in distress."

Sexual chemistry. This is the spark that ignites the previous two traits. It's also one that your W might not readily admit to. Did she ever speak of the OM in glowing terms when she mentioned him at the beginning of their relationship. "Mrs OM is a lucky woman." type comments. Bingo.

Your MC is a complete idiot. Fire him or her and either find another or call the Harley's. You need to tell the OM's W what you think is going on. I would do it in person. That way you can bring evidence to show her versus discussing it over the phone. She'll also see the painful look on your face.

The OM is probably already aware of the fact that you suspect. His story is being prepared and he may have already laid some ground work with his W. You said that you know her from some company functions. OM has probably already said," It's so sad. Mrs. Co-worker is having M troubles and her H has become quite unstable....blah blah blah"

There is more evidence that you can collect. You can buy a voice activated recorder. Heck buy two. Put one in your W's car under a seat. If she calls OM first thing in the am on the way to work you'll know more. You can also put one in the house. Hook it up to a phone line that is blocked by a large piece of furniture ie couch, TV cabinet, computer desk etc. She W works with OM this will be less effective than if she was a stay at home mom. Who knows though. She may be calling him on his cell on the weekends and leaving v-mails.

Even if the conversation or topics are tame you'll know when you hear their tone. You can here love in a persons speach even if talking about the mundane.

FYI, my W pulled everything that yours is. Told me I was paranoid. OM was just a good friend that has alot in common with her. Lied and said they rarely talk. That they never met. Well the conversations didn't lie.

Start Plan A immediately. Exercise like crazy. If you find yourself getting depressed and/or anxious get on AD's asap. This is one piece of advice that I ignored from the old time MBers and I regret it. Depression is progressive and needs to be treated immediately or it can be much more difficult to treat down the road.

So take a little trip to Radio Shack and buy some insurance. Maybe it is nothing. (I doubt it)

Hang in there..

cwmac

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kdfeild:
<strong> Dave, let me know how your session goes. I had my first today. Counselor told me that I had alot to be concerned about but she also told me it was the wrong thing to call this guys wife. She made a good point. What good is it going to do for me? Even if something is going on what am I going to get accomplished by calling her? I firmly believe that it was nothing more than an EA. My wife can't quit her job and I can't expect her too. She has a really good job. She has told me that from now on any conversations they have will be strictly work related. Give me some feedback. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KD,
Well, It sounds like you and I are in the same pattern of denial. I really hope my wife is just having an EA too. My counselling session is in 4 hours and I'm actually excited and nervous at the same time. I don't plan to be in counselling for months and years, just a couple sessions to strear me in the right direction. I guess I'm just curious how it will go.

I just broached this topic with my wife this week and now she has completely withdrawn from me. Barely wants to talk, unhappy, down-right depressed. I feel horrible about it, but I feel that I would have done our marriage an injustice by sitting back and not saying anything. She told me that she told the OM about our discussion and the OM has "backed off". I'm guessing she now feels alone and betrayed (because of me - my fault).

Next week is going to be VERY tough for me. My parents, my sister's family and my family are going to Disney World for my daughter's 3rd birthday. Because of all this mess, my W and I are dreading going and "faking" that we are having a good time.

I am NOT going to give up. I think she is worth fighting for and hopefully this forum can help. This is after all, Marriage Builders, not Marriage Enders. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand, but I'm not throwing in the towel and hating her for the rest of my life either.

Stay strong KD.... It'll work out one way or the other.
-OhioDave-

Read the book Just Friends.

I think you will find this exact scenario in that book. I've read it. This is how marriages break up. Read it and let your wife read it as well.

Yes, she is having an A and she may not realize it because she's isn't in a PA yet.

I think it's wonderful you found this when you did otherwise this would have escalated into a PA in a few weeks no doubt.

Good luck and my prayers are with you.

Thanks I appreciate it. I will get the book. I think your right. I think she is either in denial about it being an EA or she just doesn't want to admit it. I love my wife more than anything in this world and will do all I can do to make this work but I have to make her understand that she has to be honest with me about the situation.

(((kd)))

I am a FWW who is only in recovery a relatively short time (2 months). Your story hit me hard because I acted the same way your W is acting.

I had a full-blown EA/PA with a MM. It started out as a friendship, but at some point we crossed the line and it became a long EA which eventually turned into a PA.

My husband would question why I was always talking to OMM, what could we possibly have to talk about on the phone and all night on AIM after we spend 8 hours a day at work together? I always made up so B.S. story of what we were talking about. I constantly lied to my H and told him there was nothing to worry about.

Two things that sent up red flags for me in your story:

1. She says she wants to see a counselor by herself the first time for some reason then we can start together.

To me this sounds like she wants to feel out the counselor and see if she could either B.S. him/her or feel comfortable "confessing" some things without the counselor letting you in on it. Just my opinion but I think this way because I thought that way!!

2. I still have not contacted the other mans wife. She tells me that there is no point in creating problems in their marriage when this is between us. She says our problems have been going on way before she started confided in this co-worker. I want to call his wife just to see what she knows if anything. Should I? My wife tells me that any counselor in the world would tell me that that is the wrong thing to do. Anybody?

I confessed the A to my H primarily out of guilt and because I really didn't think I could get myself out of the A without being honest about it. I was told to do so by the wonderful people here, and although my motives were completely selfish and hurtful, I don't regret being honest with my H today. Hence, at the time of my confession I NEEDED to end the A but I DIDN'T WANT to end it. I still desperately wanted OMM and resented my H, and saw H as the enemy out to destroy my and OMM's happiness. H absolutely, positively wanted to tell OMM's BW, and I begged him not to. I begged under the guise that what good would it do if he told her? Why hurt her? She didn't do anything wrong, what matters is OUR M, not theirs, blah blah blah! The fact of the matter is, I didn't want OMM's BW to know of the A because I didn't know how SHE OR HE (OMM) would react to the exposure. You see, I didn't want to end the A so if OMM's BW found out, things might change. Maybe OMM would be scared to continue the A if she decided to stay married to him and work on their M, maybe he would blame ME for ruining his marriage if she kicked his sorry A$$ out! At any rate I was terrified to face either option so I again LIED to my H and told him that I would stop seeing OMM, and tell OMM that H knows (which I DID) and that he had 30 days to leave his job (which he DID) or else H will be knocking on OMM & OMM's BW's door! (Incidentally, OMM never confessed the A to his W).

It took OMM leaving the job, btw, for me to snap out of the fog (after a painful withdrawl) and start to see that my H is a terrific beautiful man and my M is worth saving. If nothing else, your W should respect you enough to stop all contact with this man immediately.

My point is kd, that you need to BEWARE of what your wife is telling you and keep your eyes and ears open. I know you said you are an insecure type of person, but let me assure you, you don't deserve to be lied to and you shouldn't have to act submissive and apprehensive if you suspect your W is cheating. Don't let her skate on this, keep track of her every move, every phone call, every trip out of the house, every email, every IM. Tap the phone, get keylogging software, follow her if you are so inclined, but do not let her manipulate you and lie to you. Us WS's are MASTERS of deceit and lies and we absolutely know our S's weak points and will play on them.

I hope that your W isn't having a PA, but get yourself prepared emotionally and mentally for the worst, read up on Plan A & Plan B, read this site front to back, so that if it comes out that she is indeed involved in a PA, you have the tools to keep your sanity intact and help save your M.


mrsx

<small>[ April 24, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: mrsx ]</small>

KD,
Mrs X gave you some great insight into the "brain" of a WS. (just jidding Mrs, X <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I wanted to respond to something she said from the perspective of a male BS. It was .....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...I hope that your W isn't having a PA, but get yourself prepared emotionally and mentally for the worst... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately nothing can really prepare you for this. I agree to use any method to collect proof from key logging software or voice activated recorders tapping telephone lines.

But as you get closer to knowing the truth about a PA, you think you're ready because you're 99.99% sure. From the recorder you've heard the tone of voice used to talk about her day or she may say "I love you" From e-mails you read the lame poetry that he writes to her. So until you either read or hear them talk about having sex you can't possibly prepare for that.

I'm generalizing but I truly believe that most male BSs have more trouble with the PA while mosr female BSs have the most trouble with the EA. Part of our reasons are sociological and part psychological (based upon bilogical differences if you get the drift).

I knew about my W's EA right after DD but eventhough I had recordings they never openly discussed anything relating to sex. I had to deduce what was going on from what I knew of the relationship and from what I knew of the differences between men & women and their behavior during their As.

Married women need to feel close to the OM. They need the emotional bond. They need to believe that the Om loves them. Then they can rationalize being physical.

Men are the opposite. They need sex (in most cases) first before they can truely bond with their OW.

In my case I heard the tone in the OM's voice during voice mails and calls and knew that bond had been developed. My W definitely had the same bond to him. So the dots connected.

During the first 2 years she would never admit to the PA just the EA to a "special" friend to whom she got too "close" during her time of need.

I won't go into why she fianlly told me (ie my near mental break down) but the night she told me I felt as though I had been punched in the stomach. I couldn't believe it since I had so logically come to a 99.99% conclusion in my mind.

Can you get ready as Mrs. X says? Kinda. You can Plan A until you feel somewhat better. Do something in Plan A that boosts your ego. Get into a new sport or hobby. That way your ego can rebound faster after it's shattered.

Also I may sound like a broken record and MBers will think I'm a pharmacist but if you feel as though depression is taking over get on AD's asap. Depression is progressive. The longer you try to "make it on your own" the longer it takes to treat.

Keep posting. It'll save your mind.

Mrs X. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's good to hear from you. I hope your H is starting to feel better. Has he ever opened up to ask you all of the questions? Las tpost I remember of yours he was not wanting to talk about it. MC?

Take care

cwmac

Hi cwmac, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for asking about us. And thanks for the insight into mind and heart of the BH, as I am definitely not well versed on that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mrs X. It's good to hear from you. I hope your H is starting to feel better. Has he ever opened up to ask you all of the questions? Las tpost I remember of yours he was not wanting to talk about it. MC?

Take care </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, from my observation, H is feeling ok. No, he has not opened up to me at all about his feelings, and hasn't asked one single question. It's quite unsettling to me b/c from what I read on this site, most BS's want to know everything. He has been to MC with me 2x since DDay and really didn't have much to say. The only time he showed his feelings was one night when we were out driving. It was six weeks after DDay. He pulled over onto the side of the road, I think a song we were listening to triggered this, and well he just started crying, actually it was more like howling, saying "how could you do this to me?, why? how could you hurt me like this?". I held him and cried with him and told him how sorry I was and the next day I sent OMM the NC letter.

Since that night, H hasn't mentioned a thing, never asked questions, is too busy working to go to MC. I don't pressure him to go or to share his feelings with me nor do I volunteer information or bring it up as I don't want to force the hurt on him if he is choosing to deal with it however he sees fit.

H is not an emotional person, he is very cerebral and I guess that is one of the reasons I strayed. It is also why I don't really try to force him to open up to me b/c I am not sure he even knows how. Again, it is very unsettling because I don't know how he feels inside about what I did to him and I don't know if he trusts me even a little.

What do you make of this??

OK, I want to comment about your points regarding how men behave in A's as opposed to how women behave. I am an emotional person and need emotional connection, however, I am more of a sexual person. H isn't an emotional person and he isn't really very sexual either, although he is trying harder to please me sexually. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
OMM is a sexual person, but he is more of an emotional person than I am. I think that is why we bonded so quickly and on such a deep emotional level. It felt good to be with someone that was more emotional than mental, someone who wasn't afraid to share their feelings and give me the emotional love that I craved. My A was more of an EA than a PA, in 10 months we had sex maybe 10 times the most. I definitely needed the emotional connection, but I also needed the sex as for years H wasn't really interested. And surprisingly, I was the one that initiated the PA. So perhaps in my situation I represent the "typical" male WS and OMM represented the "typical" female WS? I guess it really doesn't matter but I'm just curious.

mrsx

Mrs X and KD,
I think my response to Mrs X may help KD so I'm not hijacking the thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OMM is a sexual person, but he is more of an emotional person than I am. I think that is why we bonded so quickly and on such a deep emotional level. It felt good to be with someone that was more emotional than mental, someone who wasn't afraid to share their feelings and give me the emotional love that I craved. My A was more of an EA than a PA, in 10 months we had sex maybe 10 times the most. I definitely needed the emotional connection, but I also needed the sex as for years H wasn't really interested. And surprisingly, I was the one that initiated the PA. So perhaps in my situation I represent the "typical" male WS and OMM represented the "typical" female WS? I guess it really doesn't matter but I'm just curious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most of what I've read seems to agree with the generalization that I made earlier. Whether Glass or Vaughn.

A good book that focuses on As by Married Women is "Tempted Woman" by Carol Botwin. It was written for married women to help them understand how they may be vulnerable to an affair. The entire last chapter are just testimonials from FWW to other married women talking about the agony their affair has caused.

Chapters include:
How to predict if a W will have an A
Differences between men's and women's As
The Groudbreakers
Situations that drive W into As
Hidden psychological reasons for an A
Why they ignite
The Other Man
How As progress
and my favorite Out in the Open

I've never heard you talk about the OM or your H. I remember most of your posts being about the confusion over disclosure and the withdrawal pain caused by NC.

A few thoughts and observations on your situation based upon the book to show how your situation still fits within the generalization I made earlier.

From the chapter on the Other Man:

-Your OM was something close to the opposite of your H. He was sexual as well as emotional. You said your H is neither.

-Married women usually have affairs with married men because in the beginning they are classified as "safe." "He's married so we can be friends and he won't hit on me." Your OM was married.

-The relationship usually develops from a friendship. It develops slowly.

-OM knows how to give compliments

-He makes you feel as though you are sharing something important during your time spent together

-May offer emotional support if marriage troubles are discussed

-OM is good at creating a sense of fun, playfulness, or just an upbeat attitude that may be missing at home.

-He listens w/ empathy & understanding. He's a good communicator. You feel truely heard.

-He encourages you in your goals.

-He is persistent.

-If sex is involved it is usually does not come for three to six months into the relationship. How long was the A a PA. Just the last month or so?

-For women the emotional bond must come first. They must feel that they love the OM.

Any of this sound familiar??

What the OM wants:

-They want the A to stay w/in bounds

-They thrive on the diversion, the excitement of the illicit, forbidden sex. the variety. His W may not like to try "new" things.

-Some get relief from home. May be having M issues. May have a W that ignores him for kids, work, etc.

-Able to reveal themselves emotionally.

- Doesn't want the R to get serious!!

-He may say "I love you" but he still isn't committing to anything

-Men regars an A as an addition to marriage not as possible replacement

-Most men let the married women know about the restrictions of the R. "I'd never devorece my wife because of the kids." That is the nuber 1 excuse the OM uses

-The woman's emotional investment flatters the OM but causes discomfort

One interesting piece of info. Married women are unlikely to end the undiscovered A. It's usually the OM. That is except for the FWW who stumble into the MB threads!!

Why men react with so much fury;

-a husband feels dishonored

-humiliated in the eyes of "society." Even today we are conditioned to think that a married man is more likely to have an A.

-less likely to be suspicious therefore causes more shock. Because of our conditioning wives tend to watch husbands for signs. Not likely the other way around. Our egos tell us," she'd never cheat on me. I provide for her. I tell her I love her. etc"

-they are frightened. Worried over the future. Don't feel needed.

-Male competition in sex is acute. Has been for eons.

-Emasculated that OM may be better in bed or may have a superior sex organ. You women say that size doesn't matter well even if your telling the truth from your perspective it doesn't matter because size matters to men!

I digress but this important for women to know. High school gym locker rooms are an interesting psychlogical field study. The guys with the largest swagger around usually without a towel. Almost parading. The average sized are relatively safe in the middle. The smaller sized usually dress quickly after a shower, They turn their backs to others. I'm giving a more detailed example that the book. It just refernced males with an over inflated ego and sense of superiority over those average or small sized who have underinflated egos.

So take this info and plug it into your situation and you may have an idea how your H is feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also needed the sex as for years H wasn't really interested. And surprisingly, I was the one that initiated the PA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some of the reasons for having your A also fit

-disappointment in your M

-I feel attractive again. May be why you initiated the sex??

-He sees me the way I want to be seen

-Different sexual needs.

Any way you get the idea.

KD keep posting. You too Mrs X

One last question to Mrs X: Is your H normally a conflict avoider??

ciao

cwmac

<small>[ April 25, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Well we have started marriage counseling this week. We both had seperate appointments last week and started together this week. We haven't really discussed this situation yet with the counselor. We mainly discussed how we met and what made us fall in love with each other.

I'm trying very hard to believe my wife that it was nothing more than someone to talk too. She does admit it was wrong on her part. Sunday we were sitting outside and she told me that I had absolutly nothing to worry about with this OM. I have tried to give you all as much detail as possible but we have alot of history.

I am a very insecure person. I learned this from my parents marriage. Every time my wife comes home and tells me a story about talking to another man I immediatly go on the defense and begin asking her 20 questions. I know this is wrong and I am trying to change that aspect about myself. She tells me that it has pushed her so far away from me and she doesn't feel like she can tell me anything without me turning it into something it's not.

I can understand and respect these feelings from her. I'm not too concerned with the OM right now I want to stay focused on making this right but it's very hard to try when I know that I still love her as much as I did the day we married and she tells me that she has so much anger towards me that she doesn't know if she can love me like she is supposed too. Hearing in her voice that she is at the breaking point tears me apart inside. Through all our problems I have never felt like we couldn't work through it and promised myself I would never give up.

I have a doctors appointment tomorrow to get on some happy pills to help me through all this. I have terrible anxiety and mild case of OCD. I am realizing that I have been depressed longer than I actually thought. We moved to a new town about three years ago. I had never moved away from home before so I was lifted out of my comfort zone and thrown into a whole new world leaving my family four hours away and starting my life with someone new.

I think I have had a harder time settling in a new environment than I thought. Hopefully we can make this work but right now I feel like I'm the only one trying. I guess I should look at her going to counseling as trying huh? Keep us in your prayers and thanks for all the advice everyone has given.

KD,
"Just a friend to talk to" That is how 90% of affairs with married females begin.

How long has this relationship been at it's current level? How far back do the numerous cell phone calls go? How many hours per week do they talk? You can get past months records from the cell company if she has thrown them away.

If it's been at this constant level for 3-6 months, I would bet it has turned physical.

Has your W told you specifically what she and he talk about? If it is on an intimate level, it's wrong. Does she share marriage issues with him? Wrong! Does she share her inner most feelings that you may not even know about? Wrong! Does she share her dreams with him? Wrong!

I'm sorry amn but I've been here and done that. By the way your counselor is wrong about calling the OM's W.

At this point you need real proof because the OM has probably painted you to his W with the same brush as your W. Meaning you're are just a jealous loser husband with self-esteem issues. Guess waht my W's OM did the same thing. What a shock.

Are you going to take a trip to radio shack and buy the voice activated recorder? If you're wrong you'll know that you are just paranoid. If you're right, you'll know what you're up against.

I didn't have huge self-esteem issues before the discovery of the affair but when I suspected my wife painted me in the same way your W is, as a jealous spouse who is getting all worked up over "just a friendship."

Sorry if I sound frustrated but I hear my story in your words.

I hope I'm wrong. Unlike what your W said about this site. I'm not here to destroy anyone's marriage. I'm trying to share my experience has hundreds of others do so that you know your not alone!!

cwmac

kd and OhioDave,
I usually post on In Recovery but came across this post. I wanted to add the strongest possible endorsement for the Not Just Friends book.

One year ago I found out my H had multiple PAs. There was one that started 5 years before and ended a year after that. They remained friends for the 4 years after that. FOW went on to get engaged and was about to marry at that point. They did not talk or email that often and met for lunch or a drink once in a while. Just friends and no chance of going back to a PA--she was committed to her new man and my H had moved on.

On D-day H told me everything, every detail about every PA and OW, answered every question, went with me to MC, etc. Immediate NC with all FOW's; took IM off his computer and gave me all passwords. I read Not Just Friends and felt that he and his FOW friend were having an EA. He didn't agree and although I never talked to her, I doubt she would have--she was too committed to her fiance. MC told us that the only thing that was important was that I felt that when FWH talked to FOW that there was an intimacy between the 2 of them that was taking away from the intimacy in our M. If H told FOW something that happened at work that day, maybe he would be less likely to come home and tell me about it. So EA or no EA, that friendship had to end.

There is no doubt in my mind that your W is having an EA. She may or may not believe that. Doesn't matter--if she loves you and cares about your feelings and your M, then she needs to stop all contact out of respect for you.

BTW, after several weeks I showed my FWH some passages from Not Just Friends about EA's, similar to what was posted earlier, and H did agree with me. Of course there are all levels of A's, and the fact that he and FOW only talked occasionally is not the same as if they talked multiple times every day. That made it harder for my H to see.

As for as OM's wife, maybe you can get an extra copy of Not Just Friends for her too? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />