Haven't posted for awhile... H and I are on the same roller coaster. Some good days and some really hard days..

Seems we both have things in our pasts. I was the WS..an ea, never physical, but was kissing.

He told me just recently that he had kissed women in bars when out with the guys after work. (this was before we reconciled) He blamed it on alcohol, and insisted it was never with the same one or preset, or with anyone from work. I just found this out a couple days ago. He is going out for a work thing tonight. When I approached him with my fears and feelings last night, he resonded about something about my EA.

I have lots of wierd feelings.. was his affairs?

<small>[ April 14, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

I don't mean for this to sound trite but two wrongs don't make a right. Is he trying to jusify his misdeeds with yours? It shouldn't be a contest.
As far as if his is an affair I think hurtful, unfaithful behavior might be more accurate but I like what a married friend of mine told me when I was first married. If you want to stay married and there is something you wouldn't do in front of your spouse DON'T DO IT at all.

So true E, so true... all people should be as smart as your friend- maybe we would not be here at all.

an ea, never physical, but was kissing. Just for the record, kissing requires physical contact so it's physical. Not that it really matters. Either is a betrayal and an infidelity.

He told me just recently that he had kissed women in bars when out with the guys after work. You could call it an affair or you could call it an infidelity or you could call it a betrayal. The point is, he was married and married men don't kiss other women.

When I approached him with my fears and feelings last night, he resonded about something about my EA.
Ah, NOW we're getting somewhere. I'd suggest you two quit playing the blame game and trying to name each others' activities something uglier than your own. I suggest you learn to protect one another.

How did you approach him with your fears? Is it possible he felt attacked, accused, criticized? Could you approach him in the future in a way that he finds less threatening?

His response about your activities is a diversion from the real subject: you need reassurance. You need to feel safe.

I'd suggest you two work on:

1. Ways you can approach him so he doesn't feel threatened.
2. Ways he can make you feel safe.
3. Ways you can both stay on focus when you're uncomfortable with what's being discussed.

I'm not familiar with your story, though your name sure is familiar. Have you read any of Harley's books? Maybe a review of
Love Busters, POJA, and Successful Negotiation is in order.

Sorry if I'm out in left field. If I am, please provide some more info and set me straight.

Mr. E... Your friend had very good advice and true! Two wrongs definetly don't make a right, just more damage to the M..

Turtle..

Kissing is Physical... Should have said NO SEX...Does it even matter? I guess to me it does.. don't know why..

I take full responsibility for my choice to have an EA! I have expressed to my H how sorry I am that it happened and I still do.

Actually, you are right on! We have worked on MC with "how" I approach him. So, last night I was soft and gentle when I expressed my hurt and fear. He just turned it to my EA and how he felt. (He was soft when he turned to that, not mean and angry) Then I felt that because of my EA that I shouldn't have these feelings and that I need to get over them.

Your thoughts were right, and I just need to get my thoughts straight. I am not trying to "blame" him, I am just trying to understand and deal with the feelings I have from the things he told me.

I guess I will wait and see if he comes home early or if he stays out late with the guys.

I long for the days when we can both build the trust back up between us!!!!!

O.K. I just blew it! He called on his way to go out to dinner with the guys from work. I asked if he would be late. He hee hawed around and I asked if he had any idea how late he would be. He said midnight.. I was upset and said "are you going out to all bars?" He said he didn't know what their plans were. I was so upset, I said after I brought my fears and insecurities to you last night, you are going to go out to the bars where it all happened? He got frustrated and said he was disappointed that I didn't trust him. Then he said fine he wouldn't go to the bars he would come home. He was angry. I said that I wanted him to understand how I felt. That I just found this out and haven't had much time to digest it all. Who saw him? and so on. He went back to my EA and said he knows how I feel from what I did.. Didn't go well at all...

How can I ask to him to please not bring up the EA in response to something I am talking to him about. I want him to let me know if I hurt him or upset him in anyway. It just doesn't feel right when I share my hurts with him and he brings up my EA. I tried to explain and he just got very angry... Please help me to communicate this to him.

guys.. please I need your advice.. he will be home and I don't want to blow it again!

sohard,

hope all went well last night???

you probably already know what I think (and please let me know if I should quit posting to you as a result)..."upset" is not going to work...you keep looking for another answer to your question and sadly, I do not believe there is one...

it is not "fair" but if you want to keep your M together, you have to work at it...you MUST be the one to show leadership...everytime you lose it, you go back to square one...

and you MUST also get the idea for once and for all (I know how tough this is to do) that you cannot control him...he either will or will not "get" it, no matter what you do...

so, what does this mean in practical terms?

you decide to do what YOU are going to do DESPITE his response...he can only change slowly over time...it will take lots of effort with no apparent reward before you see whether or not change is occurring in him...

did you ever get the book I recommended? It's worked for others...to change THEIR perspective...this is the only person you can change...

specifically on what you posted here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some good days and some really hard days </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if you keep on working to change your perspective and take control of yourself and your emotions, the hard days will get fewer NO MATTER WHAT he does...

fact not fiction here...I've lived it, so have others...some people here at MB "get it", while others keep on blaming others (as turtlehead already mentioned)...

it is convenient to blame others because it keeps us from doing the work ourselves...

for example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I approached him with my fears and feelings last night, he resonded about something about my EA </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOU don't let him get away with this, you tell him how you feel...honestly...without any LBs (including guilt, DJs, etc.)...YOU do not accept that your past behaviour justifies his current behaviour...

but YOU also accept his "right" to do so...he can shoot himself in the foot if that is what he chooses to do...dumb as that may seem to you...

if you consistently and calmly tell him that you are hurt and scared by his continued behaviour, and he does nothing to address your concerns, that tells you something right?

however, if you are blaming him for your insecurity, then he has not yet had a chance to hear what it is you are really saying, which in turn means he is unlikely to make an appropriate change in his behaviour...

do you see the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I felt that because of my EA that I shouldn't have these feelings and that I need to get over them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO NO NO NO NO...you are legitimately concerned...he is engaging in behaviour that is hurtful and disrespectful to his S...that is not behaviour conducive to a good M...

BUT...the way you are communicating is not conducive to teamwork...I am not going to add anything to what turtlehead already said about this issue because it is excellent! you need to work as a team, not as adversaries...

you are still operating as adversaries and until YOU stop doing so, he will not...and nothing will really change between you...ie. still riding the same old same old rollercoaster...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was upset and said "are you going out to all bars?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">first, no more "upset"...if you didn't before, you now know this is an issue between you...so practice first before talking to him so you can remain calm...

in future, if you can't discuss something, then wait until you can! suffice to tell him something along the lines of: "that really makes me uncomfortable and I'd like to discuss it with you later after I collect my thoughts"

otherwise, what you say is more than likely something pretty much destined to inflame him...(not "designed" as in you trying to get him mad, but "destined" because all he hears is that he is wrong...he responds to your emotion rather than what you are actually saying to him)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not trying to "blame" him, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are not trying to do so but that is how it is coming across...

have you tried going out with him? have you tried to POJA this issue? what other alternatives have you come up with? what kind of reassurances could he provide? could he phone you regularly? could he limit his alcohol intake?

(I remember this is a big concern for you!)

what have you tried?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was so upset, I said after I brought my fears and insecurities to you last night, you are going to go out to the bars where it all happened? He got frustrated and said he was disappointed that I didn't trust him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">of course he did...he's not "right" to do so, but I am not surprised in the slightest that he sees it this way...(I know...not "fair")

so...how do you think you could have approached this differently? do you see you had other options available to you?

as to the trust issue itself, neither of you is going to trust the other one, nor should you! have you discussed this issue?

blind trust is a part of your old M and it did not work did it?

accountability for both partners is part of your new M and part of a healthy M...taking precautions, caring for one another above all else, wanting to foster a loving and safe environment that works to your mutual benefit...these are the hallmarks of a good M...

your H may not want a good M...you cannot control him remember...

however, you DO want this and you DO control yourself...

therefore, work towards YOUR goal...consistently, with a purpose, with confidence, with the knowledge that it is what YOU want which is why it is a good thing to do (ie. banish the "unfair" demon from your shoulder...it is harming/undermining all your efforts you know!)...

this attitude shift in you will be noticeable to your H...and he either will or will not change his own behaviour as a result...

after several months of consistent change in you, you can then determine if he does in fact want to work on having a good M...you can make your own choices with a clear mind at that point...

sohard: this is it...simple but not easy...it takes a long time and hard work, and even then it may not work out as you hope...but if YOU do not give it your best shot, then you don't know what might have been...

for whatever reason, you've chosen to work on your M...throw yourself into it, you're worth it!

and the bonus (as I've said before) is this attitude will benefit YOU for the rest of your life...it empowers you sohard...

taking control of yourself seems scary and counterintuitive...you are not alone in finding it hard to do...

look at all the folks (WS and BS alike) on these forums who resist with all their might, who argue over and over again that how they feel and act is not their responsibility, they can't help themselves, it's not their fault, someone else is driving their emotional train...

false false false...you are always the one in control actually...take conscious control of yourself and you WILL feel better...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It just doesn't feel right when I share my hurts with him and he brings up my EA </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no...so you tell him that...if he continues to do so, you understand that that is HIS problem...

you can:
-- raise it in MC

-- learn how to hold up your hand and walk away if it upsets you

-- discuss it at a time when you can do so without getting upset

-- remember you need to secure his agreement to have the discussion as well (Can we please discuss what happened today/last night?)

-- find a way to start off the discussion that is open and non-judgemental yet honest (I am scared when you go out to bars and drink with your buddies. I am hurt by the memory that you've kissed other women while in bars and drinking, and that's why I am uncomfortable when you do this now, without me. I want to have a good marriage with you and believe it is important to rebuild trust by avoiding past mistakes.)

-- find a phrase to use each and every time he raises your past behaviour...off the top of my head but perhaps it'll start the ball rolling for you: "honey, I am so sorry I made the choices that I did in the past and I am committed to never repeating those mistakes again. I do not want to hurt you or upset you in any way, and am always open to discussing any concerns you have about my current behaviour. Is there something I am doing now that is making you uncomfortable?

basically sohard, he cannot revert to your past mistakes as a way to avoid the problems with his current behaviour UNLESS you allow him to do so...getting upset won't change this dynamic between you...insisting he stop won't change it either...

the only thing that stands a chance of doing so is for you to consistently change your approach...long-term changes do not happen overnight...

broken record I know...but this is the road to success or moving on with your life without him...only time will reveal the answer and it may not be the one you wanted to hear...nevertheless, the same dance you're doing now is pretty much guaranteed to end in failure...

okay?...chin up, keep trying...personally, I think you can get it...changing our own deeply-rooted attitude is a hard thing to do, and will take you a few tries to get the hang of it...but once you do, it works extremely well...you cannot help but feel a whole lot better about yourself, and life in general...

at the very least, it stops all the negative interaction between you...gets you out of stewing about him and his problems...lets you whistle along on your own steam...

take care...awed