Hi to all,

After an 3 appt's with Steve Harley, H has concluded that incident was just an A and told me that it was over. Please don't anyone hit me with a 2X4 for possibly implying was anything other than A. I've been there. It's a long story. He says that I have to move out. Should I? If you go by the MB principles? I was the one who is the FWS. H is the FBS. So does he get everything and all control and I get nothing. I guess it's what I deserve. Oh well. Will my life EVER end? It just goes on forever.

Used to be I'm precious

i'm precious, I am confused by your language. What do you mean by "incident?" What does that mean?

And what do you mean "Perpetrater?"

Are you American?

As far as your questions about who should move, there are no hard and fast rules, of course. If I had an affair on my spouse and he found he couldn't live with me anymore, I would feel obligated to move. And likely, he can file for divorce and get you removed because of your affair. But that depends on the state you live in.

In addition to Mel's questions, are you asking from a moral standpoint, or a legal one?

Do you own this property or rent? Whose names are on the deed/lease?

WAT

Melody,

Sorry to be so confusing. The perpetrator is the OM. He was H and my 12 year old son's psychiatrist. When all this came out, H thought the whole thing including me, was sick. He said that he would stay with me if I was sick but that he would leave if it was "just an A".

Now I want all to know that I've wrestled with the whole thing. What part was my fault, if any. How much blame should I take myself? Now I know that most people want to hit me over the head with a 2X4 for saying that. You willsay that ALL of it is my fault. Well, I will also tell you that I blame myself for a lot of things in my life that I shouldn't. Now if I could just get that through to my heart I would be so much better off.

The OM was a psychiatrist-a professional who I or you or any other woman should be able to talk to about anything. I shouldn't have to worry about him coming on to him. I shouldn't have to worry about him using the things I say and turn them around to manipulate me. I shouldn't have to worry about him taking advantage of me.

Anyway, if I can find my story back there somewhere I will post the link if anyone is interested in reading it.

In conclusion, I guess you're right. When it gets right down to it, it doesn't matter how it happened. The end result is the same.

But you know, I read on here and some of these things amaze me. All the people (BS) out there who are willing to stay with their WS and the WS wants nothing to do with it. They are in a "fog", as everyone calls it. Their spouse it willing to forgive them and work on the M and they don't appreciate that. I never had that-the fog. I never missed OM. I didn't miss talking to him. I didn't miss seeing him. I feel used. I feel sad. I feel angry. I feel defeated. I want to die. But none of these are new feelings for me. You'd think I would be used to it all now and just give up. Some people are not meant to have relationships, etc.

Well, I've become long winded again-as always. I hope this clears things up for you a little. In the meantime I will see if I can find that link or 2.

Used to be I'm precious

Will all BS's who never said they wanted a divorce at least one time please stand up?

(everyone is sitting)

How about a bit more counseling and try to keep working through this. That assumes the affair is ended and no contact is in place of course. if you are repeating it yes, get out until the affair is stopped and BS is willing to allow you back home.

Moving out is a very dangerous move - appropriate for Plan B or when you are set on divorce but something to resist otherwise.

WHOA!
Cross posted while I was posting.

Your H and S's pshrink seduced you? Ok, yeah, you are guilty too but that is something you report NOW to your states board.

Give H a little time here, it is common for a BS's initial reaction to be "Get out"

Most don't stick to that.

A whole bunch of apologizing and pleading for a second chance would not be a terrible idea.

You leave if in danger or legally forced to and not otherwise. Stay and work through this. Do NOT make excuses or justifications and in the shirt term when H screams at you and says hurtful things TAKE IT.

That will get old pretty quick.

What did SH say? Sounds like a 4th appt before a decision is made would be a good idea.

Imprecious, I am still confused. A perpetrator is:

"One who perpetrates; esp., one who commits an offense or crime."

Did he commit a crime against you? Did you call the police? Were you raped and held at gunpoint? Were you kidnapped?

This is all very confusing.

And please explain what an "incident" is? What does that mean? That could mean you had a car wreck or went to church. I still don't know what you mean?

Are you an American? I am having trouble comprehending your language.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2ofaKind:
<strong> Will all BS's who never said they wanted a divorce at least one time please stand up?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm standing.

Precious - the feast or famine aspect is very common on this forum. By that I mean it seems that either the BS wants to work with a reluctant WS who has their head up their butt OR the other extreme of a truly repentant WS whose BS wants little to do with them, seemingly solely on principle. There seems to be little middle ground.

It sounds as if your H is taking the "principle" stand, allowing his pride to prevent any consideration of letting you off the hook.

But we need to get one thing straight. You could have told this scum bag shrink to piss up a rope. Granted, he may have had a heightened ability to manipulate you for his selfish desires - being versed in human behaviors - but that doesn't excuse your choices. That's all the 2X4 I'll use. I would agree that he may be among the slimiest of the slimey [censored] out there - second, perhaps, to the OM in my sitch.

But let's forget him for now.

Your H likely has little knowledge of the phychology of affairs, thus he may not understand that "sick" and "dopamine highs" are divided by a very fuzzy line. Even if he does, his pride is likely over-riding logic.

You seem to have few productive options - none of which includes moving out if you want to save your marriage. I believe you should adopt a Plan A approach and attempt to steer your H towards this site so he can learn more about what took place. But you can't make him do this.

Another thing to consider is to report the shrink to the governing board, which may foster some understanding with your H. If he's reasonable, he should understand the influential position this creep was in to be able to manipulate you.

Just some thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
[QB]

Sorry to be so confusing. The perpetrator is the OM. He was H and my 12 year old son's psychiatrist. When all this came

out, H thought the whole thing including me, was sick. He said that he would stay with me if I was sick but that he would

leave if it was "just an A". Now I want all to know that I've wrestled with the whole thing. What part was my fault, if any. How much blame should I take myself? Now I know that most people want to hit me over the head with a 2X4 for saying that. You willsay that ALL of it is my fault. Well, I will also tell you that I blame myself for a lot of things in my life that I shouldn't. Now if I could just get that through to my heart I would be so much better off.

The OM was a psychiatrist-a professional who I or you or any other woman should be able to talk to about anything. I shouldn't have to worry about him coming on to him. I shouldn't have to worry about him using the things I say and turn them around to manipulate me. I shouldn't have to worry about him taking advantage of me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has that spin worked for you? I would have a hard time not laughing if a grown woman told me that to my face.

Unless you are mentally ill you have to take 100% of the blame for your own behavior. There are lots of manipulative people out there, that is no excuse for an affair.

You know right from wrong, don't you? If you don't, then you shouldn't be walking about free.

Are you mentally ill?

You made a decision, a choice to have an affair, no one else did. You didn't have an affair against your will. [unless there is something you are not telling me and maybe he did rape or kidnap you] And until you take responsibility for your own choices, you are very dangerous to your spouse and he is right to move on.

I would encourage your H to run as fast as he can if you can't take accountability for your own choices. You should not even be walking FREE if you are not well enough to take responsibility for your own choices and know the difference between right and wrong.

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I'm

I think you have everyone confused. Perhaps I can help. You had an A with professional mental health care practioner that was treating your son. That is YOUR choice. However, the medigating circumstance was the fact that you were abused as a child and young adult if I remember correctly.

People coming from this situation OFTEN have trouble with self-esteem and handling people that come on to them. Stunned Dad provided here many articles dealing with the phenomena of abused children having affairs and "acting out" as adults.

Hence while the affair was your fault, the thinking among many is that there was a "reason" and it is traced back to the after effects of your own abuse.

Hence the issue of being "sick". I'm P, you are not sick in a clinical sense, but you do have weakness based on your past abuse. I think your H is being a bit short sighted but the real issue is have you been to a counselor that can address these issues with you.

As for who moves out, there is NO rule. You have children together and separately and the decision should be made with them in mind. I do hope that you can address your issues, but I also think your H is perhaps over reacting.

Were you able to bring the psychiatrist up before a board? He cannot claim that nothing happened and then your H wants you to leave because something did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You may need to speak to a lawyer about this stuff.

Sorry I cannot give you a definitive answer as to what to do. But, I do hope you realize that no matter the truth you H can make any darned decision he wants. Sadly, the reality of these things is very messy. I do hope that he reconsiders at some point.

God Bless,

JL

Melody and all,

Yes I am American. I guess I just don't speak the language well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have used the teminology I did because of H. He would just go off on me if he saw that I called OM the OM or if I called A an A. He said that if I was sick he would stay, but if it was just an A he was leaving.

Now to answer your questions in English (I hope). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I was not raped like you are thinking of. At least not by him. I have posted the link to my story below if you are interested. I did turn in the OM to our place of employment. We were employed by the same institution, but did not work in the same building, so I never saw him at work by accident. After A was over, I NEVER saw him again. He called me once while I was working but the conversation lasted a very short time. I was sitting next to co-workiers so was unable to say anything to him.

I also turned him in to the state licensing board. The "case" is being investigated. In fact the board meets some time this month and will be looking at the case. I'm sure nothing will happen as it's a "he said, she said" thing. He told investigator that A never happened and that I am delusional. Boy what an imagination I must have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />


Anyway, I feel so betrayed. Why did he do this to me? He was a professional who was supposed to be helping our family. Why can't I trust the people I'm supposed to be able to trust. Or is that just stupidity on my part?

To answer another quetion. There has been NC since D-day. Actually, I had told OM it was over earlier in the day.

Used to be I'm precious

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: i'm precious ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
<strong>
Anyway, I feel so betrayed. Why did he do this to me? He was a professional who was supposed to be helping our family. Why can't I trust the people I'm supposed to be able to trust. Or is that just stupidity on my part?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a good place to start might be with yourself if you are asking why you can't trust the people you are supposed to trust. Can you trust yourself? Apparently not. You also betrayed yourself by making a choice to have an affair.

You didn't help your family at all by choosing to participate in an affair. An affair does not just "happen" to someone, imprecious, unlike diabetes, it is a CHOSEN behavior.

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Worthatry wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thing to consider is to report the shrink to the governing board, which may foster some understanding with your H. If he's reasonable, he should understand the influential position this creep was in to be able to manipulate you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me:
As I'm sure you've read by now, I reported OM. H knows and even wrote a letter supporting me to them. Now he says he'll probably write one taking it all back. In fact he tells me now that I'm ***** for ruining OM career. Maybe he's right.


Melody,

Thanks. Actually sometimes I think I am crazy. Maybe I should be put away. It would everyone alot of grief and I certainly couldn't screw up my kids. BTW, thanks also for laughing at me. I haven't had nearly enough people do that in my life. I'm very grateful to you for showing me just how crazy and selfish I really am.


JL,

We spoke to a lawyer right after it happened. He said that since I wasn't the one who was "officially" the patient there wasn't a legal route to take. Steve Harley told me that if OM talked to me by myself then I was a "patient" even if there wasn't an official chart on me.


I was seeing a counselor who retired. H found the number to a place counsels SA people. I've started going there. I like the counselor. Not sure how much good it will do. I hope a lot. I just don't feel anything when I talk about it. It's like I'm watching a movie or reading a book. I know I'm the central character and all of those things are happening to me, but it seems surreal. Does that make sense. Maybe I am crazy. What do I do with the anger? If this was all something that happened to one of my kids I would want to kill all of those people. But I can't do that. Oh well, I'll shut up for now.

Thanks to all for responding.

Used to be I'm precious

Just throwing a question out there. Am I the only one who finds something wrong with the last line of my signature? The part about that during the A OM offered to do MC for H and me.

Used to be I'm precious

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
<strong>


Melody,

Thanks. Actually sometimes I think I am crazy. Maybe I should be put away. It would everyone alot of grief and I certainly couldn't screw up my kids. BTW, thanks also for laughing at me. I haven't had nearly enough people do that in my life. I'm very grateful to you for showing me just how crazy and selfish I really am.


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Imprecious, actually I don't think you're crazy at all, I think you are trying to avoid accountability for your decisions just because your affair partner was a psychiatrist.

Do you think your H is safe living with someone to whom affairs just "happen?" Is he safe living with a woman that can be manipulated into bed by the first slick talking dude that comes along? Are you aware that your psychiatrist is not the world's only manipulative dude and that this is bound to happen to you over and over again unless you act like a grown up and take responsibility for your actions?

You see, your H would be crazy to stay with you as long as you do not know right from wrong and are not strong enough to uphold your convictions.

I am sorry you were abused as a child. Join the club. Weren't we all? But we all are not blaming our choices on others and jumping into bed with the first slick talking dude that comes along.

Sounds like the truly sick person in this is the psychiatrist.

i'm precious, I followed the link and read your story. I feel bad for all that you went through. I feel bad for you that it seems to have trashed your already battered self esteem. I think that if you found a decent personal counsellor, it would do you a lot of good.

As for your husband and your affair... as morally sick as the psychiatrist may be, your involvement with him was not something he 'did to you'. That was something that he did with you. You still made a choice and avoiding that fact will get you nowhere but wrong.

Take responsibility for your actions, yes. Take responsibility for the part you play in your life. Yes.

Now take that and instead of beating yourself with it, use it as fuel.
Instead of punishing yourself, learn.
Instead of using to undo yourself, use it to grow...

me two cents

dewt

Melody,

If you will go back and reread my post you will notice that H was the one who said that he thought it was sick from the day he found out. The OM was black and I am white. He just knew that it had to be sick. Otherwise, how could a white woman with 5 white kids do something like that?

One more thing I would like to say. I am an RN. I know of RNs who have lost their jobs for having sex with their patients. And they weren't in psychiatrict nursing either. I know that if I did something like that I would lose my job and be lible (sp). Now I would agree with this. I would have to take the blame. I take the blame for being raped. It's my fault that I lost my virginity at 14. It's my fault my 3rd grade teacher did to me what she did. She knew way back then that I was just a stupid, bad kid who would never take the blame for the bad things she did. It's my fault that the youth minister did what he did. I know. It's all my fault. It's my fault that my cousins did what they did when I was 4 and 8. It's all my fault. I know it's all my fault and should just drop it. Get over it. I'm so sorry.

You're right. It is my fault. I should never have trusted that man. I should never have talked to him. I should never have confided my feelings. I should have said no as soon as I figured out what he was up to. I should have never led him on. Obviously I did or he never would have propositioned me. I should never have gotten married. I'm too messed up. I should never have had kids. I should never have stayed married. I should have left my H a long time ago. Now what would you suggest that I do? Should I kill myself? No I can't do that. It will mess up S and my dad. Too many people in my life that think I'm an ok person. Actually not too many-2 many. So where do I go from here? I have apologized to H. I know. Not enough. I have tried to meet his EN. Not enough. Nothing will ever be enough.

Used to be I'm precious

And none of this erases the fact that you chose to have an affair, imprecious, and are 100% responsible for your choices. That was your choice.

It makes no difference how irresponsible this psychiatrist was. It makes no difference how irresponsible other health care professionals are. All the irresponsibility in the world won't erase your irresponsibility. And if you would spend less time looking at their faults and propping yourself up as a victim, you might be able to take a much needed look in the mirror.

Two wrongs don't make a right. You were a victim of your own choices and all the drama in the world cannot change that. You can't ever grow as a person until you start accepting responsibility for your own choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So where do I go from here? I have apologized to H. I know. Not enough. I have tried to meet his EN. Not enough. Nothing will ever be enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You haven't even taken the first step. True remorse means honesty and you have not been honest. Your H has every reason to move on. Any BS would be crazy to stay with someone who has no control over her behavior.

As long as you refuse to accept responsibility for your choices, nothing will ever be enough.

You're right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
<strong>
You're right. It is my fault. I should never have trusted that man. I should never have talked to him. I should never have confided my feelings. I should have said no as soon as I figured out what he was up to. I should have never led him on. Obviously I did or he never would have propositioned me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Imprecious, i am know i am harsh at times, but you have to wake up, dear. You are going to lose your H if you keep this up. You are doing yourself a grave disservice by fostering this victim mentality. You will lose your H over it and you deserve to.

There is no empowerment in victimization. You and I both know you are not a victim. You are grown woman who knowingly made very bad choices. Yes, you used bad judgement. So what? So has everyone else! You are not any worse than anyone else. Are you not woman enough to admit that you did a terrible thing? If not, shame on you!

See, people can forgive you if you admit what they already know you did. Then they can be assured that you know you did the wrong thing. But when you refuse to admit you did a bad thing, then your H can never be assured that it won't happen again. Do you hear me, imprecious? You are going to lose your H over this and you should as long as you maintain this stance.

He is not safe until you say: "I am 100% responsible for my choice to have an affair. I am a thinking gal who can make my own decisions and I used tragically bad judgement when I CHOSE to have an affair. I am very sorry for my actions."

See, no bulls*it, no blameshifting, no victimizing, no woe is poor [censored] me. Just face it straight on with no qualifiers and no BS. THEN he can start to relax with you. Until that happens he should run for his life.

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>