Please don’t pass judgment on me for what I am about to ask. I just want to know what others are thinking on this topic.

Suppose the following: a spouse in a marriage has a stated need for SF. The other spouse, through choices of their own free will, is not meeting this need and refuses to change it, refuses to compromise. Does the unfulfilled spouse have a reasonable position to “seek fulfillment elsewhere”?

What do you think?

I'd love to answer you, but I have no idea what SF is. I've ben good at picking up on the others, but that one threw me.

Whiteknight, I thought you were joking then realised you weren't. Or were you?

SF is Sexual Fulfulment i.e. sex.

You have to admit it's quite amusing on a lot of levels. You obviously DO know what SF is!

As to the answer to the above, I don't believe I'm morally in any position to answer as I had wonderful SF at home and had an affair.

Jenny

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

double post oops

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Jenny:

OH! Sex! So that's what SF is, huh? I guess I just hadn't seen it before. Oh, well.

In answer to the question ----- WHERE exactly do you think you are? Mostly everyone is hear because someone looked for SF outside their marriage and it screwed up their lives!!!!!!!

I have been with W for a looong time. Sex with her is like banging a corpse in a morgue. No, wait, I think a dead body still has air trapped in the lungs and there is a chance some noice or movement may occur. I never had that luxery. For years I begged for sex. It was crazay. I am young and good-looking and some might even say I am a hot slab of meat, and I have been ignored. I even asked my W if she was a lesbian!

So lastyear I started an A with a dumb model who was more than willing to have sex and time, any way, and where. I was so happy to finally be having a real sex life, and I tried to justify it because she was meeting my needs that W wasn't.

But I broke it off. Why? Because the relationship was wrong. It would never go anywhere. I went back to W because I love her. I trust her. I care about her. She deserves better than to have a H who cheats on her. She doe snot know what I did, but our sex life STILL sucks. I am horny as heck lately. For crying out loud, I was having sex like crazy and then it was over. I don't think my W will ever change. She's just not into sex. I want my M to work, but I don't feel like ever, ever, ever ASKING for sex again. I am sick of it. And she will NEVER ask me. She never has.

So should I have another A, just to have sex again? Hell, no! It's cheaper and less trouble to masterbate! But, wow, is life pathetic. No one who knows me would believe that my W and I have sex 1-2 times a year.

Was that a vent at me? Or an answer to the question Catch 22 asked?

<small>[ April 15, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

No, no, no. I wasn't venting to you or at all.

I was responding to c-22 Q about if it was OK to cheat if someone's SF were not being met. Well, that was sort of why i cheated, but it wasn't right.

If I understand the Q somewhat differently --- hmmmm, I wonder what I would do if W allowed me to have an OW. That would be freaky, huh? Who would it be? Maybe she'll let me have a harem. If my W is a lesbian, maybe she'll share her.

I'm joking of course. Trying to make myself feel better over my pathetic situation.

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: whiteknight ]</small>

Thanks WK, to be honest I get highly p'd off with women who don't fulfil this most basic need.

What is wrong with them? The only sex advice my mother gave me was "never be cold to your husband" and that said everything to me. It wasn't going to be a problem anyway as I've always loved sex. I think I was lucky in my boyfriends, never had one night stands so sex is a huge positive for me. I'm lucky I've got a very good H who puts my needs before his own which also gives him pleasure.

I'm wondering, WK, how old are you?

Jenny

No. Absolutely NOT! What would be "reasonable" is getting your spouse to counseling. Telling him/her that this unfulfilled need is seriously jeapordizing your marriage. LEAVING if need be and then seeing if that would make him/her understand that you are very serious about this. If all else fails, divorce. NOTHING is a "reasonable" excuse for cheating. Nothing hurts as bad as betrayal. If there's no way to find happiness within your marriage get out, WITHOUT another person in your life.

"I'm not getting my needs fulfilled" "I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you" "we have nothing in common anymore" "we don't talk" ALL of those are just excuses! What they really mean is "no one matters to me but me" "I don't have enough integrity to do the right thing" "I am too much of a coward to leave without having someone else waiting for me" "I don't want to be ALONE but I don't care if I leave you that way"

EXCUSES

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 04:39 AM: Message edited by: toomanylies ]</small>

I guess if there's POJA, that would be ok. But I can't imagine it happening.

Catch-22

To anwer your question, in an ideal world, NO that wouldn't be a reason. But you in the real world, that is a reason. That is bad? yes!

Look where you are, you are in a MB site, and in an infidelity board. So let me ask you, did you had an A because of this?

If we were mature enough, we would address the issues before it happened, we would be able to communicate our needs better and let the other get the message.

I don't know your story, I don't know if you had an A or are planing to have one. But whatever the spot you are in, I urge you to go to counseling, read this site, and try to get your spouse to get the message for be able to meet your needs, as well as you meet hers.

This is a hard thing to do but not impossible. Get to work on it, until is too late <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

what is "POJA"?

POJA = Point of joint agreement

catch 22...NO...You cannot go outside the marriage...that would be called an Affair! Talk to your spouse! Try to work things out BEFORE it goes that far. Pick up His needs/her needs and both of you read it...

Whiteknight...have you told your wife about the A yet? She cant change if she doesn't know what is wrong! Also, telling her might open her eyes...In my case, my eyes were closed shut as I KNEW my H would NEVER find it elsewhere...WRONG! Having him expose the A to me opened my eyes wide! And they are staying OPEN!

catch 22 - Is your catch 22 that you knew what the right answer was, but you did the wrong thing anyway?

WAT

Catch,

The fact that you're stable enough to ask the question means your not so far gone that your values system has been warped.

This is the thing the betrayed have a great difficulty understanding. A long neglected emotional need can take it's toll. In my case, I tried to suppressed my need for SF because I was determined to not be ruled by my flesh. I didn't MANAGE it, I IGNORED it. Eventually, my entire values system began to bend to the point that I allowed myself to answer 'Yes' to your question.

I actually went into it thinking it was ok.

Maybe you are a stronger person than I, but I would work to exhaust every possible avenue for a solution before I would look elsewhere. Even then, only after you have terminated the exclusive relationship with your wife.

It also sounds like you are not simply looking to be "serviced". You want an enthusiastic lover. This is key, because you can't find the genuine thing outside of a loving relationship. While I wouldn't advocate them in any circumstance, it's clear that "professional services" would not meet your need anyway (just in case you were thinking about it).

Start managing this need before it starts managing you. Sexual desire is one of the most base and powerful drives. It can't be suppressed without dire consequences.

Low

I think that separation is appropriate.

Unilateral decisions are unilateral. Both people have to be happy and both need to be committed to working things out by talking, talking, talking with the aim to reach agreement. Especially on something as important as SF.

<small>[ April 16, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

mtheart --- since I am paranoid about OW lurking around here, I will honestly tell you that I am 30 (give or take 1-2 years). I am healthy as anyone can be.

momto3boys --- I started dating my W when we were teenagers. She and I had sex 2-3 times a night in the beginning. I guess she did that because it was NEW to her. I was the first guy she was ever with. She hasn't had any interest in sex in the last 6 years! To make matters worse, she still makes me wear a condom!!!! Remember, she doe snot know about A. She simply does not want to take any pills or go to the Dr to find out about other options. Believe me, I have asked. Truth is, that is a reason I have not really wanted to have sex with her. You gals have no idea what it's like. Imagine taking your left breast and shovng it into a balloon every time you want to have sex! Or better yet, shove a zip-lock bag between your legs before having sex. Doens't dound like much un, huh?

I know it was cmpletely stupid, but OW and I never used a condom. Don't beat me over the head about this. I know how stupid it was; but she was amazed herself that my W still required a condom! I was so fascinated to be having sex without a condom! Holy cow, I forgot what it felt like! The last time I did that was when I was a stupid 16 year old and my idea of "birth control" was ramming my girlfriend until I could ejaculate on her stomach. We're all adults here, so don't vomit. That's just the way it was.

So, I guess here's the big answer for this thread. Not to justify my horrible behavior, but IF my W was into sex --- or at least tolerated it --- maybe I wouldn't have looked elsewhere for it.

What is her excuse? I have wondered for years. She once just said, "I have never been into sex." Maybe that's it. Maybe she just doesn't like it and doesn't care about me. I could probably masterbate in bed at night and her only reaction would probably be to tell me to stop shaking the bed or breathing so loud so she can get some sleep.

For the record, my W is cute as a button. She and I are considered a "handsome couple" and no one in a million years would believe what it's like beind our closed doors. She watches TV and goes to sleep, and I have no choice but to ASK for sex and then be told, "Not now. Not today. Later." and so I go back into my home office and work or whatever and I sometimes think about how great sex was with my OW and wish in some crazy way that I could have "worked something out with her."

Sick? Yes. Against everything I have leaned here? Yes. REALITY? Yes.

WK,

I am so so sorry that your sex life is so frustrating. I can tell from your words how frustrated you are.

Now, let me try something different.... Have you ever told your wife how frustrated you are with your sex life? Have you ever tried to figure out why she acts like a corpse in the morgue? Do you think that she may have pain during intercourse, not enough lubrication etc.? Is everything okay with her hormonally? How do you approach her when you want to have sex? Do you always 'expect' sex when you get close to her or can you maybe just caress and touch her body without it having to lead to 'something'. I honestly do NOT believe that a healthy young woman would have no interest in sex whatsoever unless there is something medically or psychologically wrong with her.

The reason that I'm saying that is because my husband is also my first and I've always enjoyed being sexual, but I often had pain during sex and it would hurt me and I'd get scared. I asked doctor after doctor and they just told me to relax or drink a glass of wine etc. Well, that didn't help. This was very frustrating for my H, but even more frustrating for myself. This literally went on for years. I was finally able to get help and it turned out that my vaginal muscles would unconsciously tense up and cause the pain (sorry for the graphics, guys...). Well, I basically retrained those muscles and everthing is fine and peachy now. I love sex and I want to have it everyday. I have a ton of fantasies and I think about and want it ALL the time. I love to experiment, but now, my H does not seem as interested and sometimes I get real frustrated because he does not make me feel sexy desired even though I have a hot body and even his own friends tell me so. I always feel like there is something wrong with me and I can never really make him happy.

The reason that I told you all this, WK is to try to get you to see that maybe YOU are not your wife's problem. There might be something else and it would be helpful if maybe the both of you could go and see her gynecologist and talk to him/her about your issues and even see a sex therapist.

Wish you luck and lots of good sex in the future!

Kati

kati:

I appreciate your suggestions and they make complete sense. I think I have tried everything. In fact, she just came home from lunch and I suggested that perhaps she go to a Dr in case there is something wrong and she looked at me like I was an idiot. I then suggested a therapist and she walked out of the house and went back to work.

Wanna know something weird? Anytime I ever said to here, "We haven't had sex in weeks" or months or whatever, her reply was always, "Well, I don't keep track of that." Or "That's not true." Am I supposed to think I am nuts and imagining this?

I mentioned this before, but last year W and I had sex twice. She never assumed I was having an A. Or at least didn't mention it. Maybe she was happy she didn't have to deal with me.

And believe me, if and when I do tell her about the A, it WILL make things worse. Not better. Then she'l really have an excuse for me not to touch her.

In reference to romance, etc. I really am that type. I always go over to her and touch her and it is very draining to give so much and get nothing in return. Like I mentioned before, she doens't even like to kiss. I don't think we have really made out in years. Sure, maybe during sex sometimes, but mainly because that's part of what people do.

Geez, I am starting to depress myself.

So, she doesn't want to go to the DR, isn't interested in therapy and won't talk about any of this. I really feel that if and when I tell her about A it will be out of revenge, just to show that I could get some young hottie to have sex with me 3-5 times a night and that there is nothing wrong with me.

Gosh, I don't know what to tell ya, WK. What a difficult situation. Something is apparently not right. How old is your wife? Is she healthy or does she appear to be physically healthy?

The fact is, you cannot live like this. This is an important need for you and having it totally unfulfilled has already caused more pain than anything. When I was going thru these times with my husband, I felt incredibly guilty. I felt like an incomplete woman, like there was something wrong with me and I became very depressed. I felt so ashamed of myself that I could not give my husband what he needed and I felt horrible because my own sexual satisfaction remained unfulfilled. She may be experiencing some of the same issues. But believe me, there is help for almost ANYTHING out there. Luckily, I was a pretty mild case and with a little bit of counseling and some physical therapy,I was 'cured' in no time. Neither one of you should have to live like this.

Does she know of your legal troubles with exOW? She may suspect that something was going on and maybe your own guilt is making you react in ways that is getting her confused right now.

When things are not right in a relationship, sex is the first thing to go....

Kati

P.S. There is NOTHING wrong with YOU, WK. Don't take the blame for your W's problems with sex. If she is anything like me, she is probably incredibly depressed about this and doesn't know how to get help for herself and feels incredibly guilty towards you. I just cannot believe that a young and healthy woman (or a healthy woman of ANY age by that matter) does NOT have interest in sexual relations with the person that she loves.