I'm not sure what to write about the R weekend. It was very intensive. We learned a communication technique that I hope will help us. There are also 6 follow-up sessions that we will go to to learn more.

The 1st night we had a loud whining toilet, and an air conditioner that went off every 5 minutes and sounded like a freight train was in the room. We did not sleep all night. It is amazing we both managed the sessions that went from 8am until about 10:30pm. Lots of coffee.

There are presenting couples that were all on the brink of divorce for various reasons who recovered after their own R weekend. What hit me in listening to their stories is that H and I had a really good M pre-A. That an A can hit even when the M is good given the right circumstances. In our case death, dying parents, death of H's dad, a huge financial situation H had to deal with after his D died, unresolved childhood issues triggered by FIL's death, a W (me) who was so stressed to the max I couldn't meet his ENs, and then the OW who actively pursued him and moved in to fill the void. I still can't believe it. It feels like our M was poisoned in the blink of an eye.

It is so odd where H and I are. I felt close to him over the weekend. Generally we are close. We are very affectionate and are still attracted to one another. Have SF, except I'm not ready to "do it" yet. H thinks NC has been 5 weeks since he spoke to her on the phone. I just figured out it has been 3.5 weeks. He's trying. He is in IC, we 're talking to SH, and we were going to MC. We need to figure out how to do all this counseling. We communicated in a deep way over the weekend.

So what's the problem? On the way home H's negativity began to emerge again. The real world was hitting us both. We drove through this park and I found myself wondering if that was the park he and OW went to the night they had their 1st sexual contact. It made me feel sick. I didn't say anything to H. By the time we got home h told me how much he dreads work now. It was flowing so smoothly before. My thought, "To bad H you had to have an A with OW and ruin the flow." Then he talked about how sad all the recovered married couples were. I pointed out later they were relating the saddest points in their marriages when they were talking. H has a low tolerance for sad feelings his IC told him. Then he started rewriting history. When he was in-love with me I wasn't in-love with him. Were we ever in-love at the same time? Now I'm thinking about H and OW, specifically, "But you and OW were IN-LOVE at the same time." Then before I know it I'm saying, "If you and Ow had such a GREAT stage one, and you think you would have the perfect M, why don't you just go be with her?" That happens to be my favorite LB lately.

We ended up talking later and I told H I'm sick of him rewriting our history. We had a good weekend and he was DJing me. And basically it was such a bummer to realize he is still missing the BI***. I know, it's only been 3.5 weeks of absolutely NC. I told him the A just rocks everything you believe in. At the R weekend I felt this closeness between us. Somewhere in me I felt like the emotional connection with OW was less. Then he reveals he is still thinking about her. So am I just imagining the closeness? Is it all fake? When he says he was totally with me sexually is that a lie? I HATE WHAT H's A DID TO US!!!!

H just called me and interviewed someone to take over OW's position. He said she seems like she would be very good. That maybe part of his grief is what OW did for him work-wise, and if he fills that position he won't be so anxious. He told me she is attractive, I think around OW's age, and he has no idea if she is married. My reaction, which I shared with H, shows the trauma of this A on us BS's. I cried and said the thought of him hiring someone young and attractive is very hard for me to deal with. It bums me out because I've never felt jealous or threatened in our M before this. It's not who I am. It's not who I was, but it is who I am now. He said, laughing, "So I need to hire someone old and ugly?" You bet buddy!

So that's my Retrouvaille story and continuing drama! Some of it anyway! CV

CV, I feel your frustration. It is very hard in recovery, I was warned already. But think of this, you are way ahead of us, lots of us would trade an arm to be in your stage. I am not invalidating your felling, but just have to face it. Come here to vent, and get the OT's advice. Lots of love and hugs.

lostnhurt, I know compared to others' situations mine isn't as bad. I know you're not invalidating my feelings either. If the goal is recovery from an A then H and I at least aren't in Plan B. In saying that, the trauma from the A is the same for all of us. The resentment over our WS's total selfishness in bringing this pain into our lives. Looking at my H and feeling overwhelmed at the thought that he allowed himself to be in-love with another woman and had regular sex with her. I want to know what it was like for them so I won't be haunted, yet will I have the reaction I had last week when he related the 1st time they had sex? It's a lose, lose situation. Truth is freeing, but it hurts like HE**.

And then the question, why did H have F us up? We were best friends, enjoyed each other's company, were attracted to each other until the meds screwed him up? Got to go. He's home!

Hang in there and keep posting here. This stage will not go on forever. Read here on the home page the 'quick clicks' about overcoming resentment.

When you feel like LB'ing, come here and let us have it.

Hang in there, CV. We went to Retrouvaille while the A was ongoing, so at least you're one step ahead of us. NC is still very new and FWS is still going through withdrawal. Does he still work with OW?

I know what you mean about the A changing the BS. I never was the jealous type, either, but this whole thing just shakes you to the core.

Now, force yourselves to go to the follow-up sesions. We used to fight almost all the time before the sessions, but then we'd learn a little bit more ourselves and each other.

I'm surprised, though, that the recovered couples were sad as well. On our weekend, they did relate their sad situations, but they seemed happy otherwise.

All of these feelings are new for you. They are quite normal. We all go through them and you will, too. It doesn't mean your H doesn't love you or that you won't have a happy M again. It's just that it takes alot of hard work on both your parts to get there.

Another milestone for recovery is when FWS feels complete remorse. I don't think your FWS is there, yet, but it will come. And when you see the pain on his face, you will know that he is going through his own kind of hell.

Stay strong, CV, and post when you can.

Thanks Believer! You are so encouraging in spite of what you are going through in Plan B. If I am ever in your shoes I hope I can do the same for others. I'll check out "overcoming resentment."

lbc, that must have been rough for you going to R with your H still in the A. I personally didn't think the couples were in sad M's. If I was up there relating 5 yrs. from now this pain I'm sure I wouldn't be laughing. There was a lot of pain in their stories. By the last 2 hrs. I think H was just pained out. One of the couples was relating some present painful situations which unexpectedly caused her to cry. It wasn't that their M was bad, but the reality that SH** happens. When H was in his little bubble world there was no crap to deal with. God forbid OW would engage in any conflict provoking discussions. H sees this now. It's all admiring, affection, and sex. Not life that includes sadness like death and sickness.

OW's last day was 2/27/04. When I found out about the EA I said she goes, or you go. I had to put up with her for one month which was fun. Actually the withdrawal may be more fun than that period was.

H feels a tremendous amount of remorse. He is beating himself up constantly over what he did. When I bash OW he feels bashed because he did this, and says he is just like her. Last night I asked him if he had sex with OW before she was separated from her H. He said he didn't think so. I asked him if he thought about her H at all during any of this A. He admitted he never did think about him. He then told me he can't think about him now because he's having a hard enough time dealing with us. I know it's too much for him to acknowledge. A few months ago he actually said he had nothing to do with the breakup of OW's M. I actually am having a hard time knowing H was the OM, and that he never thought about OW's H. That really bothers me. Maybe because I know OW didn't think about me and our boys. Her M was bad beforehand, and our M wasn't. Still her H had to be hurt. My H who had integrity did that. I can't grasp that.

One big problem that H has told me, even yesterday, that having the A break up while still in the in-love stage is difficult. Of course nothing I want to hear about. He was forced to end it. Well, I've told him he could have stuck with her. The thing is the A didn't run it's natural course. Plus, if you haven't read my posts, she worked with him for 5 yrs. The EA started last April or May. He was with her far more than me. I understand the withdrawal, but I still look at him as a stranger at times. Like this can't be my H. He would have never done this.

So how far into recovery are you, and how long ago did you do retro.? Thanks for your encouragement! CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong> Somewhere in me I felt like the emotional connection with OW was less. Then he reveals he is still thinking about her. So am I just imagining the closeness? Is it all fake? When he says he was totally with me sexually is that a lie? I HATE WHAT H's A DID TO US!!!!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CV, this happened to us this weekend as well. Actually last weekend I told H he NEEDS to do something for me...even if he is faking it. So all along I thought he WAS faking it. then he tells me one day this weekend he wasn't faking it that the feelings were acualy there. That made me feel really good. Then the next day he tells me he still misses OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I just took it with a grain of salt! I also was asking a lot of questions this weekend. Not major ones, just stupied ones like "did you do THAT in front of OW...did OW do this to you" and I think that started bringing back some memoreis for him. UGH!

Hang in there! We will get thru this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As long as you are in plan A ... you are still riding the coaster w/ WS in control. This board is a blessing for venting out, getting support and prolong your plan A endurance.

A doesn't happen over night and it won't go away over night either.

-rh-

My WH and I completed a Retrouville weekend this Sunday too and we both feel we are building up strong tools and resources for our “Lets Save the Marriage” arsenal.

However, I think we're going to save discussing our super delicate and sensitive issues only with our MC. We’ll shelve those issues – sex/ desire for our counseling session. It's still too crushing to talk with my WH about how he loves me but just doesn't feel any desire for me with out the aid of a kick [censored] MC. But at least we made this agreement together.

I can relate to so much of what you said. My H and I had a great relationship. I know now, since that is about all I have to do at this point is look back and analyze, that I was not perfect. That all of our ENs perhaps were not perfectly met, that there were some hurts committed along the way. But we were best friends, really and truly. We were great lovers. We were excellent conversationalists. One of my fave memories of my H is a long car drive to our fave college town to watch an exciting college football game, where we talked for hours and hours and hours about deep philosophical subjects, and I never felt so in sync, so connected, with another human being ever. And he commented about the same thing, how we are just RIGHT for each other, we just get each other. How completely thoroughly we enjoyed each other.

And he just set that on fire and threw it out the window.

How foolish is someone to take that for granted. How foolish is he to NOT realize that those kind of connections are usually only found once in a lifetime.

We had some communication problems, I'll admit. But we were in love. We were so compatible. We were chasing the same dreams, and believed the same truths about the world. Had similiar passions. And our problems could have been solved so much easier if he had just maturely brought them to the forefront.

It is really sad. Because it changed us forever. And we could argue that it will change us for the better, blah blah blah...but there will always be that stain, that blotch, that scar, that will change the innocence and beauty of what we had.

<small>[ April 19, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: ChristyV ]</small>

Mom, this withdrawal sure is an up and down process. For a brief moment it seems I think OW is out of the picture. Then H's grief surfaces and I feel the kick in the gut. It's like a scary movie, "Freddie Kruger's back!"

rh, you are so right on! I know intellectually that this A was going on for 9 or 10 months. I even tell H THAT when he feels discouraged days that he doesn't feel any better. Yet emotionally it all sucks. I think, and maybe have said, "You've known me for 26 yrs. Do you think you'd miss me as much as OW if we ended?" Somehow he can't imagine that! I know I have to be patient, but I still get so pissed off.

Loy, I hope this Retrouvaille works for you and your H and us also. We just did the exercise and it is a great means of communication. I know what you mean about dealing with the heavy issues. I think we need to be on more solid ground before we go there. I want H further out of the fog so I know we can both be clear when hitting the pain of this A. That "I love you, but have no desire" crap will hopefully go away. When H's A 1st started being revealed he actually had trouble with me touching him. That gradually began to change. His rubbing of me was pretty mediocre, compared to my hour head rubs. Now I can tell he enjoys touching me also. It is very hurtful. I know I felt rejected. Unfortunately the OW's were getting all this attention, not us. Yuck, I hate even writing that. It will get better if he keeps the NC.

Christy, I hear you! It's the loss of innocence in our relationship that hurts me the most. The fact that I trusted him so much before I would never have questioned who he hired or if she was good looking or not. My shrink told me today it is a post traumatic stress reaction. Like if you were on an elevator that fell several floors. You are so freaked out you won't go on another elevator. For me just knowing he was interviewing someone OW's age and attractive was like the elevator. Logically I know someone with character can be any age, and a [censored] can be my age. But now I associate certain things with OW. I have to fight it.

Steve Harley told me a few things that helped me somewhat when I asked him how H could have had this A. I might have already posted the frog story. SH said frogs like cool water. Put them in hot water and they'll jump out. Put them in cool water, turn up the heat gradually, and eventually they'll die in boiling water. That's what happens in an A. By the time the water is boiling it's too late for the WS to get out.

The other thing he told me, which he probably told you, is that my H had an A because he didn't protect his weaknesses. Frankly he didn't know what they were. Somehow OW just moved in at the perfect time. Just like you feel I'm sure, I just want to tell H, "How could you have been such a jerk? You actually fell for the sexual come ons? You gave us up for that?" Somehow I have to get to the acceptance point. And if you and your H find your way back to each other you will have to also. I hope your H comes to his senses before you've had enough and cut him lose. I can't imagine being where you're at. But this fog state is real. When I told SH that my H had unprotected sex that he just now is realizing how stupid he was. I mentioned it several months ago to H, that he slept with everyone OW and her H slept with. I thought my comment didn't register, but apparently it did. Anyway, SH said THAT is a perfect example of the fog. What person in their right mind in this day would have unprotected sex without even thinking about it? Well now he's thinking about it.

Hang in there girl! Did you read my reply to your other post? I shared a little humor.

Thanks all! CV

CV, SH told my H those things too...My H also had unprotected sex...Even though we DO NOT want anymore kids...I have had a hysterectomy...He never "pulled out" with OW either...I asked him about kids and he said "oh well, I guess I will just have to take care of it"...this was while he was in the FOG...I couldn't believe my ears!

Hang in there!

Mom, was D23B's OW taking birth control pills? I know my H doesn't want more kids. And frankly if a little bambino was on the way, he and OW could have fun raising it. THAT would be the dealbreaker for me. I was more concerned with STD's. However, at one point I did ask if there was any chance of pregnancy. He said no, like of course not. How stupid when you think of it. All OW has to say is "we're protected" and not take those pills. Your H was in major fogland. Another kid, no big deal. Yeh right!

This morning H thanked me again for not throwing him away. I told him he almost threw us away and he admitted that was true. These WSs are very lucky people because we have saved their sorry butts! CV

oh yea...H said "she said she cant get pregnant" "I know she doesn't have STD's" And HE believed her!

I made him get tested for STD's at planned parenthood 3 days after he ended the A...He was not happy about that...I went with him too! I also made his clinic draw blood for Hep...they wouldn't let him leave until they drew it...It makes me sick that he didn't use protection. She was not on birth control, she just "couldn't get pregnant" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Mom, these are intelligent men? I'm laughing because it's so ludicrous. Your H is a doctor, has 3 kids, but somehow OW wouldn't get pregnant just because they wished it wouldn't happen? HELLLOOO!!!! I'm knocking, but there ain't anyone home!

I decided not to push the testing with my H until I knew if we'd make it or not. On Easter he brought it up and said how freaked out he was by his actions and wanted to get tested soon. I guess the thought that the OW, who is "F"ing a married man, might not be pure like the virgin snow never entered their minds!

A few years ago I took a week long HIV counseling class. I learned that a new group of people who are getting HIV are divorced, older people. They have been out of the dating scene so long that they don't think about the diseases out there. Especially my age group. We never had to think about safe sex, just unwanted pregnancies.

H and I are at his office today. He had to leave for a while. I had this urge to ask him exactly what they did and where they did it. I know, I'm a little sick. I realize I'm probably not ready for this step yet. Instead of throwing a blanket at him I might chuck one of these lamps at his head. Somehow I think at some point I will need him to walk through this place with me to exorcise it. I'll wait till he's further out of the fog. I don't want him to remember the "good" memories from this experience.

I was sitting across the desk from him before as I know he did with OW when they were working together. I'm sitting there thinking, "I can't believe the little "B" was blowing him kisses." He told her to stop and she kept doing it. I told my shrink about the flirty behavior and that H's shrink told him, "OW knew how to use her sexuality", and said it really bothered me. She said, "Of course it bothered you. OW was trying to seduce your H." DUHHHH! No wonder I can't stand her. It feels like it was one big game. I'm sure she developed feelings for H. But the actions I'm talking about were before the EA. I feel like she was seeing if she could turn him on, which she obviously could. No thought to the fact he had a family. I don't know why that flips me out so much. It's just not in my range of consciousness. Maybe some things are best not understood! CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
Mom, these are intelligent men? I'm laughing because it's so ludicrous. Your H is a doctor, has 3 kids, but somehow OW wouldn't get pregnant just because they wished it wouldn't happen? HELLLOOO!!!! I'm knocking, but there ain't anyone home! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think we have proven that EVERY man, intelligent or not thinks with the WRONG head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OW was trying to seduce your H." DUHHHH! No wonder I can't stand her. It feels like it was one big game. I'm sure she developed feelings for H. But the actions I'm talking about were before the EA. I feel like she was seeing if she could turn him on, which she obviously could. No thought to the fact he had a family. I don't know why that flips me out so much. It's just not in my range of consciousness. Maybe some things are best not understood! CV</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This whole thing bothers me...I found out that H OW was after him for over a year! and the fact that SHE went after a MARRIED man with THREE little boys does not even make H see that she is a B**ch! he just doesn't understand why it bothers me so much. He says he was just as much to blame. Ok that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about OP going after a Married Person! She oculd have said "NO, you are married...you go work on your marriage" but she isn't at fault here cuz he went after her...Bull SH*T! She could have refected him. She flirted her A$$ off for years to get him. Do you think if he had been the janitor picking up the trash she wuld have gone after him. NOOOOO...

Ok, sorry, I didnt' mean to Highjack you thread here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ April 20, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]</small>

Thanks CV. You are in my thoughts and prayers often.

Hey, while I am thinking about it....the name of that book I was talking about..."Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix, Ph.D.

I really liked it, because, bottom line, he likens our marital relationships to parental relationships on differing levels (something your counselor mind will probably pick up WAY faster than mine). Bottom line, we look for mates, subconsciously, that have similar traits on one level or another, to our caretakers, in a hope to replicate and heal old wounds. And my favorite comments in the book "We hunger for love from our original caretakers or from people who are similar to them on an unconscious level we have them merged....which brings me back full circle to the dillema: How can partners heal us if they have some of the same negative traits as our caretakers? Aren't they less likely candidates to sooth our emotional injuries?...If people were going to be healed, I conjectured, their partners would have to change. It was at this point that I began to see the unconscious selection process in a new light. While it was often true that what one partner needed was what the other partner was least able to give, it also happened to be the precise area where that partner needed to grow. In other words, this change, in this effort to heal his partner, he would be recovering an essential part of himself. So these tow people can either hurt each other, or [by forcing growth] heal each other, depending upon their willingness to grow."

He has a lot of ways to get the anger out. Anger that is not directed at your spouse, or anger that definitely is directed at your spouse.

Food for thought. Maybe what your FWH is needing most from you, that is the hardest for you to give, is really, the biggest opportunity for personal growth and healing for YOURSELF. With his healing being an interesting side effect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mom, don't worry about highjacking my thread. i have done the same more than once. The reality is all of our experiences are so similar that our own SH&& gets triggered. I think I'm going to start a new thread that addresses more of what bothers both you and I about the OP, in our cases OWs.

Christy, I love Harville Hendricks. I bought his book in 1989. I saw him on Oprah. I was about your age at the time I read the book. What I like about his work is that he doesn't just approach healing a M behaviorally, but understands also how the unconscious effects us. In our case if H would would have had some awareness going on he wouldn't have fallen for the little twit's advances.

OK, I'm going to start my new thread now. CV