Another poster (BetrayedH?) posted a list of 10 questions to ask the WS.

I would like to discuss these Q's with some of the more experienced posters here. Of course, I welcome the thoughts of anyone who posts here as well. I'm sure there are many like me who really feel a need for answers (that they might not be getting from the WS anytime soon). I have attempted to discuss all of those questions with my WH on many occasions (not now - in Plan B) but with very little luck. He mostly refuses to talk about it or just lies. I feel frustrated about having to guess about what went wrong and why my husband has affairs.

Also, when would be the right time to bring up these questions? I posted under the General Questions board because I didn't know if it would be best to try to ask the WS these questions when you Just Found Out, during a Plan A, or during Recovery (obviously not during Plan B). I realize that my WS obviously wasn't ready to answer yet... BUT he didn't want to answer these type of questions about his previous affairs either...ever. The last affair (that I know about) as 12 years ago and he still either refuses to talk about or lies about that one! A lot of the time he claims he can't remember anything too... The answer I like the least is when he tells me it's none of my business - it was between him and the OW!

Here is a link to the first question in the list
concerning what gave the WS 'permission' to have the affair? How did they rationalize it to themselves in order to allow it to happen?

http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/experts/experts_by_month/articles/0,,172420_558942-2,00.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meremortal:
<strong>I have attempted to discuss all of those questions with my WH on many occasions (not now - in Plan B) but with very little luck. He mostly refuses to talk about it or just lies.

Also, when would be the right time to bring up these questions?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It appears that these questions are meant for WSs AFTER an affair is over.

Hence, your bad luck with trying to get answers from your active WS.

Prior to the fog lifting, you may as well be talking to a Tickle Me Elmo - you'll get much more logical answers.

What did I think justified me having an A?

(1) My W was too wrapped up in raising the kids and running the house to worry about me.
(2) My W didn't listen to me.
(3) My W ignored me.
(4) My W took me for granted--she thought I was only a machine for generating money for her.
(5) She made promises to me she didn't keep.
(6) She ran off to be with her mom and dad every chance she got, providing me with ample opportunity to go carousing.

Nothing particular interesting--just your usual laundry list of two people who who lost touch with each other.

For the record: The reasons listed above do not justify the A. Our M was in pretty bad shape, although she didn't realize how bad it was until the A. In retrospect, I should have made her and I go to MC. We would have saved a lot of time, money and anguish.

<small>[ April 19, 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

My H didn't love me, i was doing this to symbolize that i wanted a divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jimmy Mac wrote:
(5) She made promises to me she didn't keep </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jimmy Mac,

Don't mean to pry, but if you're willing, can you please tell us what promises your W did not keep?

Jo

<small>[ April 19, 2004, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

WorthATry,

Your Tickle Me Elmo analogy made me laugh.

I don't think I will trust him enough to even try recovery now unless he answers some questions. I've made the mistake of breaking Plan B before because he said the affair was ended for good and wanted to talk and/or meet to discuss what's necessary for recovery. Most of the time when I tried to ask these questions, it was at those times - not while in Plan A (or Plan B). Sometimes he (pretended to?) agreed about what would need ot be done for recovery, including saying he woudl write a no contact letter, go to counseling, answer my quesitons. Sometimes he even answered my questions. But he always goes back to refusing to talk about anything and refusing to send the no contatc letter. So then I went back to Plan B. Also, the last affair ended 12 years ago and he STILL won't answer questions about that one!

So I don't know how to know when/how to end Plan B now. I can't trust anything he says without backing it up with proof. He will have to send me a letter to me saying he wants me instead of the OW and that he will have no further contact with her, that I am not forcing him to come home or preventing him form seeing our daughters (and never did), and that he will promise to do all that is required for recovery. But I think I have to wait for even more than that. I think that the only way I can make sure he will go to counseling, answer my questions, and make the changes necessary to restore our marriage is for us to only see or talk to each other in the presence of a MC who employs MB principles. I don't want to break Plan B again onyl to find out he still won't answer any questions. So how can I wait until the recovery stage for that?

RESILIENT:

Just don't laugh...

(A) Spending promises
(B) "I'll be home by **INSERT TIME**."
(C) "I'll be off the phone in a few minutes."
(D) "I won't wear your socks."

Ridiculous stuff--but after a few years these minor little annoyances are like water torture.

Jimmy - hmmmm, wore your socks, huh?

Man, that sure IS annoying.

Are you making fun of yourself?

That breaking these "promises" equates to breaking "honor and cherish"?

Please say so.

WAT

I think most who get in affairs did not guard their heart. Our pastor gave a sermon on that. He said most people never intend to cheat. Most do not plan it ahead.

In his sermon, he advised married people to guard their heart. By this he meant not discussing personal problems with a member of the opposite sex, not being alone with someone, not saying anything that you would not want your spouse to hear.

He said that when you start feeling inappropriate things to run the other way, and have no contact with that person.

I have always adopted that standard. I've been careful to avoid situations that could be considered to be questionable. My WH who heard the same sermon, did not take it to heart.

believer...great advice on guarding your heart. It's knowing where the line is and not allowing anyone to cross it, no matter how flattering it may be!! I think it's all about feeling bad about yourself at the time and then someone comes along that builds you up, says just the right words and WHAM, you feel like a teenager again!! Raging hormones and all.

meremortal...In answer to your question about what the WS says to themselves that gives them permission. For me, there was no one moment that stands out where I just said, "ok, i'm going to have an A"...It's like the alcoholic who takes that first drinking never knowing where's it's going to lead....I now where that line is that I was referring to in my last post and there have been men who have attempted to cross it since my A...I let the compliments go now, in fact I don't really even like to be complimented by men now at all.

In general, I don't really trust men anymore to a certain degree...I guess you could say that I'm a bit jaded. But that's necessary now since I now know that I can't really trust myself like I used to either.

I think that my stbxH rationalized everything by simply avoiding the issues. He told himself, and me (too many times to count!), that "we were just not meant to be together". I know, I know... fogtalk. But he really believes it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

In fact... I saw him in court in late March, and when the crown attorney asked him why he and I were separated and almost D'd, he said, "We never should have been married in the first place".

In his case, it's his uncanny ability to totally avoid taking ANY responsibility for HIS actions. It's always about someone else.

I'm sure he justified it even further in his head, just as Jimmy Mac did, that all of those seemingly little things that I did, were huge problems.... although, again as a typical WS behaviour, he never actually gave me the courtesy of telling me what I needed to do to change (trust me, I asked him numerous times over the years, and all he could answer was "I don't know". The liar! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ).

Okay. Vent over. LOL.

Karen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what gave the WS 'permission' to have the affair? How did they rationalize it to themselves in order to allow it to happen?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here are the reasons I was given:

1) I didn't think you would care.

2) You didn't want me anymore (this was funny because the opposite was more like it).

3) You kept threatening to divorce me (I was trying to get his attention, it didn't work).

4) I forgot our anniversary and I knew it was over then.

Although it could be that he wanted to, he had been with the same person for over 20 years and wanted to see what sex was like with someone else (anyone else), he didn't want to face our problems and try and work them out, so he took that coward's way out? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Lisa wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's all about feeling bad about yourself at the time and then someone comes along that builds you up, says just the right words and WHAM, you feel like a teenager again!! Raging hormones and all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes yes yes yes yes! EXACTLY how I feel or felt!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me, there was no one moment that stands out where I just said, "ok, i'm going to have an A"...It's like the alcoholic who takes that first drinking never knowing where's it's going to lead</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, exactly how I felt. There was no one moment per say but a series of little moments and then all of the sudden you are way in over your head.

I don't trust men much now either, not that all men are out to do me. H and I had a wonderful talk and he gave me some insite into how a man's mind works. Combine that with how trusting and naieve (sp?) I am about life and what not it's best that I am on guard, not as trusting with men - and myself! - as I use to be.

Lisa - sounds like you and I are in the same boat! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa103:
<strong>I think it's all about feeling bad about yourself at the time and then someone comes along that builds you up, says just the right words and WHAM, you feel like a teenager again!! Raging hormones and all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT's word origins:

dopamine

dop = dope

a = singular, omnipotent, only one

mine = as a three year old would say, "MINE, MINE, MINE!!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!"

WAT

WAT -

You got it!

I am NOT defending what I did. The A was one of the worst things I ever did. I was responding to a question of "How did you justify the affair at the time?"

The point is that these were things that were (and still are) important to me. My W didn't think they were important.

Here is how it played out: Future BS (FBS) thinks something future WS (FWS) wants/needs isn't important and thus ignores FWS's requests as silly, childish, stupid, etc. Rather than FWS and FBS sitting down and working out these issues, they are ignored. Pretty soon, FWS stops sharing his wants, needs, and dreams with FBS. FWS becomes less and less happy within the M.

FWS's needs aren't being met within the M. Guess what? FWS may go somewhere else to have his needs met, and thus an A results.

Like the "sock" issue--you think it is stupid. If you went to your S every week and said, "Please don't wear my socks," and S continued to do so, at some point it goes from, "Silly problem" to "S doesn't give a d**n about me. S can't even do this one simple think I ask." How long would it take for you? A week? A month? A year? 5 years?

WorthATry,

Funny stuff LOL (the word origin for dopamine - do you have any more insightful word origins? I'm homeschoolign my daughters and they love that sort of witty thing PLUS oldest daughter is very interested in root words, word origins, etc.)

It got me thinking... I understand all about the feeling like your needs are being neglected, being over the romance and firworks part of the relationship, and the one you're with acting as if you're invisible, taking you totally for granted. And how that can leave a person 'vulnerable' to an affair, to the flattery and attention given by someone with adultery on their agenda.

It's not that we BS's are all totally clueless how it feels to be so neglected and aren't ever faced with the temptation an adulterer offers.

BUT when the BS was the one who was more than willing to work on the marriage, rejected the temptation of adultery themselves, only to have the WS be the one to give in to the temptation of adultery (when the WS didn't even bother trying to spice up the marriage first AND rejected any attention and attempts to meet needs that the BS offered) - then what?

If the (just as neglected) BS could resist the temptation (let's face it - pretty much ever present - just like the common cold BUT you only catch it when your resistance is low because YOU, not your Mommy or your BS, have been irresponsible in taking care to keep your resistance high)... then why couldn't the WS resist the temptation too?

Maybe we WS's should just make sure the next person we marry is mature and responsible enough to make sure they keep their own immunity built up and know how to spot and resist temptation as well as we do?

Oh and another thing...

No BS, no matter how loving, insightful, careful, or attentive to their WS's needs will be able to be perfect enough to prevent a WS who is immature, selfish, dishonest, too weak to resist temptation (or just plain stupid enough to fall for an adulterer's tricks) from straying. I don't buy the blaming it on the BS with the well if their needs were met at home bs... I know of too many cases (including mine) where the BS was the ONLY one trying to make the marriage work, trying to meet the WS's needs while being totally ignored and taken for granted. The truth is the BS had just as much excuse to stray, if not more, but didn't.

The truth is the WS will always find an excuse if they want to. No BS will ever be able to be perfect or appreciative enough. All it takes is something as trivial as borrowing the WS's socks (something that no doubt if the OW does it's simply adorable).

Jimmy - I don't think the "sock" issue is stupid, rather, I think as breaking promises goes, it's trivial compared with the promises made upon entering marriage.

For the record, I went over 10 years without having basic needs met and didn't have an affair. I would have gladly traded losing socks for just about anything normally expected in a marriage. That said, a lot of that time was spent caring for a terminally ill child, so I was willing to sacrifice needs due to the stress resulting from higher priorities. In hindsight, I could have done a LOT more to attempt to "heal" my marriage while also trying to heal my son.

Regardless, I wish you well in your marriage and, no doubt, you're much wiser now, like most of us here. I admire your willingness to offer your candid reflections.

meremortal - here's another word origin that's been repeated here several times in the past:

wayward

way = the route or path to somewhere

ward = loonie bin

WAT