Awed,

I just went looking for the post where you had given me the name of that book, and just then saw your response to my post on communication with H.

Oh my goodness, what a wonderful response from you. Thank you. Some how your perspective really helps me! I still couldn't find that book name. Could you please post it again?

We did end up discussing this in MC.. MC told H he really needs to stop bringing up the EA. That he needs to address the issues at hand. But, he has been told that before. The things you say make SUCH GOOD SENSE, now I need to put them in practice. I really have to. I find myself becoming depressed and really beat down. We are struggling so much! But thank you again, you must really know where I am coming from because your posts hit it right on the head.

I have to detach a little, it is the only way I can make it right now. But, H senses that and gets angry and frustrted with me. The MC told H and I that H is very self centered and it will be a life long struggle for him to change his behaviors...

just bumping this up so awed will see it

oops it said it didn't go through....sorry double post

<small>[ April 21, 2004, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: sohard ]</small>

hey there sohard! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

my apologies for the delay in responding...I've been off chasing my tail for the past few days (applying to grad school)...final throes so please keep your fingers crossed for me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

cool -- I am always happy to hear that I've given someone something to think about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I've learned so much from others here and am grateful to return the favour whenever I can...

yes, there are a lot of similarities between our situations that I can draw on for insight...however, I am always a tiger when getting the spouse (usually the BS, but not in your case) to detach from their emotionally-driven responses and experience the true self-empowerment of taking back your life...

if I think I am having any luck in reaching someone, I will keep trying to get them (you in this case <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) to change...

helps you, helps your M...what a bonus!!!

the book is called How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together by Susan Page... if you want a bit more inspiration about the book, check out this thread...
someone else who is reading the book and reaching some amazing personal insights

I emphatically encouraged freetobe to read the book too...she was struggling (still is) within her M...doesn't know if things will change with her H...

the point is if things change within you, the rest is sort of immaterial...you will feel better...you will do what you NEED to do and discard the rest naturally (which diminishes the negatives of fear, resentment, anger, loss)...this process will take time but you will develop peace with the whole concept that major change always takes time...and furthermore, you will accept that you will know what you need to know when you know it and not before then!

now, that is a VERY clunky way of summarizing the benefits of this particular book <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...but read free's most recent posts and you'll see the personal transformation she's undergoing...she certainly intellectually understood the concepts prior to reading the book, but now she's experiencing the transformative effects of truly embracing these concepts within herself...to finally let go of her resistance, resistance she didn't fully realize was there until she changed...

I think particularly for those of us who have "problem" spouses, more than "just" the A, this is a survival strategy that can morph into the discovery of true peace within ourselves...I experienced this phenomenon and then found that the book validated what I'd already gone through, and what I was trying to get across to others...the book can do more (I think) to help others reach this same place of personal affirmation and recovery...

I sincerely hope it brings you insight, and that the specific exercises help you to permanently change your own perspective...I can assure you that it fits like a glove with what MB concepts and your counsellor have been advising you to do...none of it is "new" per se...but the reason I recommend it is because the book has more of a "how-to" component to it that I really like, one that seems to speak well to women caught in M conflict...haven't had any guys try it out yet even though it would help them too...

all the best to you! awed

P.S. can I ask you another question? what do you mean...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to detach a little, it is the only way I can make it right now. But, H senses that and gets angry and frustrted with me</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you see detachment as withdrawing?

my H is very self-centred...nonetheless, it is this same guy who is obviously becoming more focussed on me...in other words, my detachment has "given" him the space to find himself...finding himself allows him to look up and see me...

clumsy analogy I know...but since I am experiencing success first-hand as a direct result of loving detachment, I have to say that I believe it works extremely well in the long-term with someone who is self-centred...

thanks awed.. I am anxious to read the book and start the work..

When I mean detach.. it is when I don't "hold the hurt", I don't let the things get to me. I am nice to him, I am affectionate, all of the things he needs, but he says he senses I am not really close to him. Inside kind of a wall of protection around my heart. Hope that makes sense.

Also, I find myself struggling with "flashback" feelings latley. From the years of bad things or behaviors from him. He does small things that bring huge emotions based on the past. 19 years past... I need to work through this, but we still "walk around the past behaviors" and if I do talk to him he says he feels so bad for his behavior and me talking to him just makes it worse. Example.. For all those years he flirted right in front of me. Put other woman ahead of me, right in front of me. Made sure I was "in my place" and didn't flirt or do anything to make him jealous. I won't go into detail, but he was AWFUL! How can I get past this? Any ideas would be much appreciated!

Good luck to you on your schooling!

awed,

Couldn't help but reply, as this post seemed to hit me for a number of reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think particularly for those of us who have "problem" spouses, more than "just" the A, this is a survival strategy that can morph into the discovery of true peace within ourselves...I experienced this phenomenon and then found that the book validated what I'd already gone through, and what I was trying to get across to others...the book can do more (I think) to help others reach this same place of personal affirmation and recovery...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would venture to guess that my WW would fall into the category of a "problem" spouse. She's 24, we've been M for 2.5 years. Her first EA/PA began four months after we married. She is now on EA/PA #3. This is the first A she has been in that she hasn't attempted to be in an R with me as well, but OM is a coworker, just like the previous 2, so the EA has been there for a while, I'm sure. If she makes it two more months with OM3, she will have had 3 A's that lasted longer than any time that she has been exclusively committed to our M. She I guess that qualifies, huh?

Anyway, more to the point. I feel that I am rapidly approaching this point in recovery. I delivered my PBL on 4/17 and I move into my own place on 5/1. I talked with MIL/FIL on Monday and explained that I still love my W, but she has made it very apparent that she doesn't want to be single, but wants to be involved with anyone other than yours truly, even though I'm a "great" guy, and have been a good, faithful, but imperfect spouse. She is willing to risk her job, school, her friends and go about 15-20K in debt to be without me. That is a profound statement, and one I chose to listen to. I chose the route of "loving detachment" that you speak of. I also adhered closely to the MB principle of "not being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness." I feel that I'm actually not the true cause, and I have enriched her life more than she can fathom, but... she feels that way, and I have to acknowledge her feelings.....

Anyway, in my personal recovery from all of this, I am quickly improving on personal affirmation, recovery, detachment, all of those things.

So if you're looking for a male BS point of view, I'll pick up the book and give it a read and let you know.

Ethan

sohard:

I never want to interfere with what your MC is doing so please always take any suggestions I make with a grain of salt...

that said, as usual I have some additional suggestions for you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it is when I don't "hold the hurt", I don't let the things get to me. I am nice to him, I am affectionate, all of the things he needs, but he says he senses I am not really close to him. Inside kind of a wall of protection around my heart. Hope that makes sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it makes total sense...it is perfectly normal and natural...

here's my take on it though, similar to what I wrote to someone else earlier this week, someone who is in the process of truly flying through recovery with her H -- he's doing everything "right" for a WS and yet she still worries about the same things you are...

it is universal for a BS (at least from my reading!) to go through this stage, these feelings, this reaction...

BUT... some BS never make it through ...they never move past their fear...and in this, you are identical to a BS because of the trauma you've experienced at the hands of the man you love...so the same reasoning will apply to you too...

YOU are hampering YOU...it may feel like you are protecting yourself, but in fact you are also limiting yourself...you are holding yourself back from what you might achieve because you are afraid of being hurt again...

just think about this for a while sohard...you have had a really tough time of things...I do not mean to imply you should be willing to parachute jump into the unknown at this point! I am not saying any of this as a criticism either...we all make our own decisions in life because it is, after all, our own life!

however, I would really encourage you (and the book will likely reinforce this too) to gain confidence in yourself, in your ability to experience life and survive...to see that hurt is a part of life...getting past pain is more than survival, you can actually thrive as a result...

this concept is scary...it's counterintuitive...but this is also an opportunity for real personal growth we're discussing here...

simply put: if you can feel strong enough and confident enough to take the chance with your H, it may lead to the breakthrough you really want in your M...

on the other hand, your inability to take this chance may prevent you from getting the M you want...

now this has absolutely NOTHING to do with H and what he ends up actually doing...instead it has everything to do with you feeling strong within yourself, to trust in yourself enough to take the chance to be vulnerable to him again, and if it does not work out, to KNOW that you will not only survive but THRIVE...

just think about my friend...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H senses that and gets angry and frustrted with me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that is HIS problem...anger and frustration is not an appropriate response to your fear...but that is HIS problem to deal with, not yours...

clear enough?

that said, he is actually responding to your lack of trust in him...which is true! so while his response is inappropriate, nevertheless, it is telling you something important...

he too is afraid...he's vulnerable...he's in that position of "I won't trust you until you trust me" ("trust" in this context = vulnerability)...

that is precisely why I suggest that you might want to consider working yourself around to doing this for YOURSELF...

because until you do, you will NEVER know if it was actually true...

perhaps maybe he will trust you, open up and make the real changes you've been hoping for...

and perhaps not...

that is why life is risky...you don't have any control over someone else...

my point is always: if you do this, you do it for YOU...and because of that, it will always be worth it, whether or not it turns out the way you hoped it would...

big big life-changing stuff sohard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...think about it...I'd be happy to discuss further at any time...

as always though, you go grrl! awed

here's the response I wrote to the other person, someone who is not yet entrenched in fear therefore I can suggest to her that she not let fear START to rule her...she can take preventive measures you see, something that was not available to either you or me! (lucky her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don't EVER let fear rule your response, or even take over your thinking for any length of time...consider the root of your fear and then address it directly...know that you are taking, and will continue to take, a "chance" by remaining with your H -- with your emotions, with your vulnerability...

but aren't the best things in life "chancy"? you've done and are doing what you need to minimize the risk and the rest of the risk you've embraced in the full knowledge that it may not "pay off" the way you've intended, but that the rest of the pay offs (self-empowerment through significant personal growth) can never be taken away from you again...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Once again awed... your words are very encouraging!

We had MC last night. I actually told him of my "work" what I need to work on. He thought it was a great idea. He also gave my H some "work" to do.

I am a very "feeling" driven person, I wear my heart on my sleeve. So, this will not be easy for me. One thing we discussed... My H is very self centered, he knows this, we are working on this. I always tell him how I or the kids feel and assume then, that he will respond in a caring and thoughtful way. Thing is... he doesn't then I am hurt. So, now MC and H want me to "help" H learn a new way by, telling him both sides, what I or the kids are feeling, and what he could do to help the situation. Now the kicker... if he doesnt' do it, or does the opposite for his own gratification or whatever. I leave it there. I let it go. That is the part that will be hard for me...not to be hurt. And if he does do something just plain inconsiderate or hurtful, then he needs to learn the patience for me to fully heal without pushing me, he needs to be gentle and understand the pain he has cause.. Hope this makes sense.

This will be very hard for me, I am just so feeling driven. But, I am going to take on the challange, and as you say. I will be better for it!

p.s. at the end of mc, he prayed for information, books, or tapes to be lead to us to help in our recovery. I just thought.. maybe the book I ordered is a big tool right now...

Hi Ethan!

warning: I write long posts...I try to give a lot of info rather than sound bites...be warned...your eyes will likely cross and perhaps even spin back into your head... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am thrilled to hear you are willing to be a guinea pig! seriously though, perhaps other men have read the book and been helped by it...

that said, I don't know how helpful you will find it at this point in time because I usually recommend it as a resource to people having problems with recalcitrant spouses, ones who are not willing/interested/motivated to work on the M...but still, S they are living with and having difficulty not LBing (or withdrawing from, or leaving!) as a result...

I am showing a bit of bias by recommending it to lots of women precisely because many women can easily recognize themselves and their (former) behaviour in what Page writes...in other words: placing their emotional well-being in the hands of their S, then feeling hurt/anger/resentment when the S does not deliver as expected...

{note: perhaps your WW feels like this too???}

anyhow, as already mentioned, Page's suggestions are totally in sync with a lot of the underlying changes routinely suggested to BS here at MB...take responsibility for your own happiness, stop LBing by accepting that you are responsible for your emotional responses, speak honestly to your S about your needs (ie. don't expect them to read minds)...

she goes a step further by helping (through concrete exercises) sort through your needs/desires/wishes/problems/aggravations/frustrations to determine which ones are REALLY important to address in your M, and which ones you can simply let go...put in the nice-to-have category...

and the best part is that you do this all on your own...so it is perfect for a BS in Plan A or early recovery when the WS is less than enthusiastic about participating in M renewal...

BTW: this book has nothing to do with adultery, A's aren't mentioned anywhere in the book...

it is an excellent practical resource for guiding personal behavioural change...positive and motivational too! which make it a great tool for a BS...

so you might find it useful for considering further personal changes you want to make, or for adjusting your whole attitude towards your WW, or for adopting a new way of looking at your M when you reconcile with WW, etc.

best of luck to you no matter what you decide...please stay strong in Plan B...remember NO CONTACT is crucial to your healing...it sounds as though your Love Bank is fairly depleted at the moment...

Ethan, I don't know your situation but have a couple of quick observations I can offer:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but she has made it very apparent that she doesn't want to be single, but wants to be involved with anyone other than yours truly</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don't do this to yourself buddy...NEVER make assumptions...there could be, and likely are, many complex reasons for her behaviour, none of which have anything to do with you...

you are actually DJing by this statement which is something you need to strive to eliminate as a personal behaviour...I do too so I know what I'm talking about!

think about it Ethan...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> even though I'm a "great" guy, and have been a good, faithful, but imperfect spouse. She is willing to risk her job, school, her friends and go about 15-20K in debt to be without me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well...maybe she's really unhappy with herself!

perhaps she is being self-destructive...

perhaps she is scared and running away from her problems...

perhaps she has unfairly focussed all of her discontent onto you, seeing you as the cause of her problems...

there are many reasons people take negative actions in their lives leading to negative consequences...

let me pose one of my favorite to you: why would a BS LB their WS when they KNOW it drives them away and that is absolutely the last thing they want to do???????????

doesn't make sense does it?...and yet there are lots of examples here at MB that you can shake your head over...

we complex humans shoot ourselves in the foot all the time...you can't prevent someone else from doing so...all you can do is to recognize when YOU are doing so and take steps to prevent yourself from continuing to make the same mistakes, over and over again, expecting a different result every time...

be kind to yourself Ethan...loving detachment means letting go of those last bits of DJs too...to have compassion for the person you love who is hurting themselves, whether or not they will ever admit it...and also moving forward with your life, doing what you want to do, because you want to do it...

Plan B? you are doing it for you...good for you!

hope something I've said here in this new novel helps in some way or other...take care...awed

sohard:

you have me grinning from ear to ear!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe the book I ordered is a big tool right now... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be absolutely shocked if it is not!!! because...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if he doesnt' do it, or does the opposite for his own gratification or whatever. I leave it there. I let it go. That is the part that will be hard for me...not to be hurt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Page will help you to do this...but also find other ways to communicate with him to improve your chances of success in getting through to him...she is motivational and positive...I will be amazed if you do not find her suggestions helpful...

I am thrilled at hearing your latest news...I hope you recognize your own accomplishments in the past few months...keep up the excellent work! awed