i have so many various things going on in my head this may be a total mess of a post but i am hoping for some help sorting it all out.

H struggles with why I sat on fence for so long. I state I cheated on him because I wanted to internally symbolize that I was done with the marriage, I was giving up and that I had every intention to divorce. But then I didn't divorce him. he doesn't understand why i didn't just disclose the A and divorce him.

This sure does relate to the discussion on exit As from last week... I told him I NEVER intended on telling him about A. I did not do it so that I could then go to him and tell him about the A and use that as the reason for divorce.

I had reasons for the divorce, i felt there was no real relationship between H and I, I felt I had tried to engage him for years with no avail and so I concluded he had no desire to have a close relationship with me, and I could no longer live that way. We could argue all day as to if my thinking was accurate or not. but i don't think we would agree.

there is no arguement as to if my decision to have an A on top of it all was right or not, it was 100% wrong. what else can i say to that?

and then we started doing intensive work on relationship, like Retrouvaille (April of 2002) and MC, but i didn't completely end A and recommit until Nov 2003?? why?? well, in reality i went back and forth on A. I would try to break out of it but then i would fall back.

which natually leads him to the question, how can he be sure it will not happen anymore in the future? and he wanted to make it very clear that any future acts of betrayal WOULD mean divorce.

that kind of summerizes our latest conversation.

i'm still left not really knowing how i feel about it all.

i'm kind of feeling defiant, that does not seem like a good sign. if i start thinking too much about why i gave up on the marriage, if i start to hear that he does not validate how i was feeling about it all, that really makes me close down. he has never really answered my question regarding why he would not do anything about our marriage until it came down to me leaving? why didn't he go to mc or retrouvaille when i asked him to before? i have my own "why" questions and they are important to me. why at the beginning did he focus so much on financial implications for him? (like how he would talk about how he would have to find a job now and he would be forced to take a lousy job like at fed-x being a package handler, and how he started to save money in his drawer which totaled over $3000.) i did not really touch on that much with him. i did ask why he didn't want to work on marriage earlier, he said he felt i was way off base, my thinking was off, it was about my dad.

i didn't say anything else. but i guess now i realize that put me back into thinking that this means he was happy with how the marriage was before?? if he thought my thinking was off, then he must of thought everything was fine and dandy, but it was no where near fine and dandy!!! and if he still does not see that, it scares me.

i don't want to backslide here, and i fear if i go down that path of trying to understand why he was distant for so long and why it didn't bother him that we were so distanct, we will just backslide. but is it necessary? i don't know. or do i just bite my tongue, help him get past my fence sitting for so long and continue to just look at the current day and future.

i hate to admit this... how strong is my belief that we are meant to be; how strong do i really believe that we have what it takes to live happily after.

and i guess the point is, it is not as strong as i wish i was. and that worries me.

it all seems so fragile and maybe it just is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FL,

I think you have a few things backwards here. I hope my thoughts on YOUR thoughts, will make you think you thoughtful about your thoughts on this situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

First, am I speaking to the same lady that wanted her H to stay with her after the disclosure of the A? Am I talking to the same lady that worried that when he went on a trip that he would decide to leave? I hope I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">which natually leads him to the question, how can he be sure it will not happen anymore in the future? and he wanted to make it very clear that any future acts of betrayal WOULD mean divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer is he can't but you can, make sure you don't have an another A. AS for his statement that another betrayal would mean a divorce. It is not a command, it is not a demand, it is a statement of fact that he feels he could not handle the pain again. I think it is a very reasonable and honest statement, but it seemed to bother you. Why?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that kind of summerizes our latest conversation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a good conversation to me. He cannot foresee the future and is concerned, but he knows he cannot handle the pain again. Because in reality this is his SECOND time already. You are missing the part where you wanted a divorce and to leave, and he spent two years trying to rebuild. Now he gets to try and rebuild again, after a second rejection by you. Are you seeing this thing just a little differently now?? I hope so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm still left not really knowing how i feel about it all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean you are not sure you want to be married to him? You mean you want to leave? What don't you know about how you feel? If you don't know he sure won't, and it may be what his leading to his uncertainty about you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm kind of feeling defiant, that does not seem like a good sign.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who or what are you going to defy?? Do you feel you OWE your H something and you don't want to do it? Do you feel his previous statements somehow put you in a corner? What exactly are you going to be defiant about?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if i start thinking too much about why i gave up on the marriage, if i start to hear that he does not validate how i was feeling about it all, that really makes me close down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see you expect him to validate something he never understood? You expect him to validate it was fine for you to leave him and have an A as well? What is it you need validation for? He sort of figured out you wanted a divorce and it shook him so much that he completely changed how he approached the marriage and changed. He did thif for two years while you got YOUR EN's met by another man. What is it you are looking for here FL?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he has never really answered my question regarding why he would not do anything about our marriage until it came down to me leaving? why didn't he go to mc or retrouvaille when i asked him to before?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nice defensive more FL. The best defense is a good offense. Right? Seriously, he did NOT know how to do these things, and you are now digging in ancient history to justify your actions. The FACT of the matter was when it came to losing you, he changed. Not only did he change for a month or two he has been changed for what? Close to three years while you have been giving him minimal emotional feed back because you were focusing on another man.

I don't think set out to make you unhappy. The odds are high he wasn't happy either, but what he did know that you don't know is that he did NOT want to lose you. Look at the evidence today, inspite of your affair, which gives him the perfect out, and he will look like the good guy, he is staying. I think the better question to ask yourself, is WHY are you looking things this way? What are you gaining by throwing dirt on him NOW, when you chose to stay with him after he changed?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i have my own "why" questions and they are important to me. why at the beginning did he focus so much on financial implications for him? (like how he would talk about how he would have to find a job now and he would be forced to take a lousy job like at fed-x being a package handler, and how he started to save money in his drawer which totaled over $3000.) i did not really touch on that much with him. i did ask why he didn't want to work on marriage earlier, he said he felt i was way off base, my thinking was off, it was about my dad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let's see you have decided you want to end the marriage is that it?? Or are you just trying to keep from answering hard questions about why you wanted a divorce, had an A, and your H was willing an able to work hard enough to change you around. What you have NOT admitted is how hard a job he had, and how hard it was. If you stop and think there was and is no way he could sustain that, PLAN A for much longer than he did. THAT is why he wasn't the same.

You may not realize this but if you read plan A, you would think to yourself that this is how a spouse should treat me. You would be right for the most part but there is a reason Harley recommends Plan B. Actually, there are many, but one of them is that the person in plan A is primarily if not exclusively a GIVER. That cannot last. The TAKER will come out. Your H from all you said was primarily the GIVER for over two years. That is pretty amazing.

The problem I am seeing is your TAKER is bouncing up and you are now going back to time where you can BLAME him. But the reality is you cannot any longer. Those Whys may be there, but you are the one that needs to decide if you want to be married.

If you don't do him a huge favor and file. If you do, THEN you are going to have to do some work. The choice is yours, as it has always been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i didn't say anything else. but i guess now i realize that put me back into thinking that this means he was happy with how the marriage was before?? if he thought my thinking was off, then he must of thought everything was fine and dandy, but it was no where near fine and dandy!!! and if he still does not see that, it scares me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see any evidence that he feels the marriage was fine and dandy. Your very strange piece of logic not withstanding, the data says he changed, he worked, and he did it for two years, with as you admit little or no support from you, you were in the A. You confess the A, he is crushed but he is still here. I don't think he wants to be married to a woman that doesn't want him or love him. Even if he thought your thinking was way off, it does NOT mean he enjoyed the marriage before. He just put up with it, until it was very clearly broken. Plus he like the rest of us probably has learned something and matured abit.

I don't know FL. But, if you don't really don't want to be married to him, quit blaming him and accept that it is YOU that is breaking up the family. You are trying to blame shift, and it is not becoming, it is not effective, and it will not get you where you want to be, not matter where that is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i don't want to backslide here,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You seem to be back sliding now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and i fear if i go down that path of trying to understand why he was distant for so long and why it didn't bother him that we were so distanct, we will just backslide. but is it necessary?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has he shown ANY evidence of backsliding in over two years? If he didn't care for you do you think he would be there NOW? Do you think he would be struggling with your A? Do you think he would have put in the work? I am guessing here, but I think he is showing you he changed by his actions, not just saying words. If you don't feel his actions are enough then tell him what you need NOW. There is no way your marriage will return to what it was. It may become worse than it ever was, or better, that depends on YOUR actions in the near future and in the long run it depends on HIS actions as well.

You two have learned a lot, don't forget that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i don't know. or do i just bite my tongue, help him get past my fence sitting for so long and continue to just look at the current day and future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure what this statement means. If you don't get off the fence and work on your marriage, your past fence sitting will be not be relevant. You are on the fence now aren't you? YOu see he has big issues, that you say you want one thing, but when he did it, you sat on the fence and had an A for two years.

He is faced with the very real possibility that HE cannot possibly be good enough to suit you. You are reinforcing it by NOT facing the now and future and what you did, by going back to reinspect what he did. Yet, the evidence is clear he realize what he was doing was not right and he changed to save the marriage.

What he is wondering and so am I, is have you changed to save the marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i hate to admit this... how strong is my belief that we are meant to be; how strong do i really believe that we have what it takes to live happily after.

and i guess the point is, it is not as strong as i wish i was. and that worries me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh! Good Grief! YOu think marriage make it because "they are meant to be"? Marriages make it because people COMMIT to making them work. If all it took was finding the "soulmate" or the one that was "meant to be", there would be no need for VOWS, promises, commitment. It would just flow because everyone was deliriously happy with one another. FL, your marriage will make IF you decide to make it work. You have already seen how your H's decision changed you around. People are happy when they decide they want to be and they will see the joy in things in life. It is a decision FL, not a belief.

Everyone wonder how anyone can promise and vow to LOVE another person. They are not promising feelings, they are promising ACTIONS. Love is a verb, it is something YOU do. You can give your H love from now until you die because you control it, it is something you DO, not feel. In the best of worlds, with both partners "loving" the other, then both of them "feel" the love the other is giving.

You felt your H's these last few years. How long has it been since he felt YOURS? All it takes is a decision on your part, it has little to nothing to do with him.

Your choice in all of this FL. No sense getting defensive, you have full control. What are YOU going to do with it? That is the question. You can build your marriage, you can sit on the fence, you can have another A, you can file for divorce, you can... whatever you want.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

it all seems so fragile and maybe it just is [Frown]
[/quote]

i was not done with post yet!! i hit add reply once when i meant to hit "quote" , then i hit stop, i didn't realize the post was added...

deleting this one, the next one has it all.

<small>[ April 26, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

FL,

Take your time. This is the place to sort this stuff out. Sorry about the first sentences, but was having fun and the phone rang, so it is a mess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, the point here is you are becoming defensive. That is what I am thinking. I am of the opinion that the things you need to focus on is not the past, but the future. He did what he did, he responded as he did and NOW here you are. What did you learn from the past? What did he learn from the past?

Those are the critical things in my mind. The point here is he needs to find a way to deal with the A and that you really wanted to leave and you did NOT care enough to stop the A although he was trying. Again, what should he learn from this? What should you learn?

Finally, there is the future. Given what you two have learned can you construct a marriage that statisfies both of you? Can you use what has happened to PROTECT each other? You see he is trying to figure out how to defend himself against the pain of your A and you leaving. You are trying to defend yourself against feeling neglected. You cannot do that by ruminating on the past. You can do it by learning from the past.

For example, you KNOW that your H is willing to roll up his sleeves and WORK on the marriage. He is willing to change, he is willing to deal with your A. What are you willing to do? What have you shown you are willing to do?

Think about these things and then talk. Take what you know you and he are willing to do and focus it on making a marriage that you BOTH can be happy with. It is a matter of will and determination being applied to keep your commitment. If you decide to use your will and determination to do this, I think you can offer your H hope that his efforts won't be wasted and it will help him get over the A.

You see he is struggling with how could you do this, and why? The short answer in my mind is that you were not using your will and determination to make the marriage better. You may have 'tried" in the past, but you were NOT deteremined to make it work.

The point of this is that each of you can take comfort in lessons learned IF the lessons are applied now with a determination to make each other happier and the marriage better for both of you.

Here is where a plan can help you. If your H sees you making and talking about plans, and I am not talking about "I want to do..." I mean "I will do this, I will do that, I want this from you, and I will be more than willing to do this so that you are happy to do it for me." That is a plan with action items and things you "will" do.

Do you see what I am talking about? It is an attitude, it is a choice of words, it is action. If you start to do this, I think your H will respond, and THEN the two of you using radical honesty and the POJA CAN build the marriage you both want. You both have to keep your eye on the ball.

Does this help as a starting point for you to express where you don't agree and thus articulate what is realy bothering you? Hope so.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

thanks for the reply, i was really hoping you would come along!!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you have a few things backwards here. I hope my thoughts on YOUR thoughts, will make you think you thoughtful about your thoughts on this situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you completely lost me on all that but i am hoping your thoughts on my thoughts will help me get my thoughts back in a positive, constructive, forward moving state.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, am I speaking to the same lady that wanted her H to stay with her after the disclosure of the A? Am I talking to the same lady that worried that when he went on a trip that he would decide to leave? I hope I am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, it is the same me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AS for his statement that another betrayal would mean a divorce. It is not a command, it is not a demand, it is a statement of fact that he feels he could not handle the pain again. I think it is a very reasonable and honest statement, but it seemed to bother you. Why?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i totally agree that it is a stmt and a very understandable one. it did not bother me at all. i included it in this post because it was something that was said. i completely agree with that stmt and i am not concerned because i will not go down that path again. he wonders how i can be so sure, and how can he trust me, i told him re-establishing honesty between us by confessing to him is very important to me, that is why i confessed and that i will never let that go again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are missing the part where you wanted a divorce and to leave, and he spent two years trying to rebuild. Now he gets to try and rebuild again, after a second rejection by you. Are you seeing this thing just a little differently now?? I hope so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that is a very good point

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You mean you are not sure you want to be married to him? You mean you want to leave? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no, no, no, that is not it at all, i do NOT want to leave

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What don't you know about how you feel? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm seriously trying to answer that question. i don't know. i know that is no answer. that is why i posted. Note the subject: "need help sorting out feelings"!!

ok, i was trying to respond as i was reading. but then i stopped responding and just read your entire post, twice.

maybe defiant is not the right word...

i don't feel back into a corner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see you expect him to validate something he never understood? You expect him to validate it was fine for you to leave him and have an A as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, i'm NOT looking for him to say it was ok that i had an A!!

I'm not saying I want him to do anything differently now.

But, Yes, it scares me that when he says our marraige was not so bad that there was nothing that could not of been worked out. If that was the case, why didn't we work it out earlier??? and that is not meant to be a casual question!! i really struggle with why he would not work on relationship earlier.

i don't mind you challanging the above stmt. In fact, it is the above stmt/question that kept me on the fence for so long, so challanging it and helping me get over it is exactly what i need. i was really mad at him for not doing anything until his life was about to be torn apart. i was really mad at him for not doing anything when i was asking him to do MC or retrouvaille sooner. I was in so much pain for so many years and he knew it and he choose to just not care. He only started caring when his life was about to be torn apart. i KNOW I am being extremely hard on him, so 2x4ing me to say get over it, is good. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he did NOT know how to do these things, and you are now digging in ancient history to justify your actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm not trying to justify A, but when he asks me why, why did i want to divorce, where else is there to go but into history???

i really think you misunderstood my post. i am in no way saying i am unsure about staying together. the whys i have are from 2+ yrs ago. not today. i'm not trying to throw dirt at him. the conversation was a good one, there were no LBs. i did not say much about the things i am thinking here.

maybe the main problem here is that i am being forced to say it was all my fault. and that is hard to have to face. but the facts are pretty clear here, aren't they? it has been all my fault. and yet as soon as i type those words my insides want to yell NO. NO, i was not all your fault!!! you are not a terrible person, you gave him your best for years, you were loving and kind, you provided financially, you were a great mom. i never turned him away for SF. he, himself has told me that. i really tried to be a great wife. i tried and tried and all he ever did was push me away. I recall wanting to go to MC before i was even pregnant with our second child (the one that did not survive) because it was when we were in the old house. he just kept saying, nothing was wrong. so if he was so unhappy, like you said he probably was, why did he lie for years and tell me i was just imagining things, everything is fine, this is just the way marriage is. and then in MC he brings up stuff from when we dated, some of it was from the very first few months!! he has pushed me away from the beginning. why did he marry me?? the things he brought up as to why he became distant seemed crazy!! his decision to have no relationship with me for years is a decision too. no, he did not sleep with someone else, but he certainly did not love and cherish me. For YEARS!! that is breaking marriage vows too.

these are questions i wrestled with a lot over our marriage. and especially right before i decided divorce was the answer.

having to go back in time, puts me back into the middle of all the turmoil i felt for the majority of our marriage. his comment that he is just not "into" kissing anymore as an answer to my request that we kiss more, his stmt that he cannot possibly love me the way karen and fred love each other because of all i have put him thru. his constant putting down of my family, my friends, my job (which is course is what allowed him to have the type of life we have!!) now i am really venting here, arent i??

i know i was on the verge of a possible back slide and that is why i came here to post. not a back slide that would get me thinking i want to end it all and give up. but a back slide that would make me feel the need to be defensive (in case the last paragraph didn't make it clear, that is what i am feeling, not defiant, defensive) which is no way to be if my true goal is to move forward. and that is my true goal.

JL,

i don't know if you saw my entire post or not as i see you have responded before i got it all down. sorry about that. but as you see, you are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, the point here is you are becoming defensive. That is what I am thinking. I am of the opinion that the things you need to focus on is not the past, but the future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i agree. i am becoming defensive and i don't want to get that way because it unfocuses me on the future. but H is not ready to just move into future, you know?? he needs some answers here. i want to give them to him, but that does put us into a state of looking at the past. i do not think i should tell him, quit looking at past, it has been what? 6 weeks now. i have to stay patient, wait till he is able to move forward only. i posted here because i knew i was feeling something non-productive. i needed help sorting it out and getting re-focused so no visable back sliding would occur. again, there was nothing said between H and I that was negative. I tried my best to answer his questions and more just allow him to talk. he told me about 15 min ago, he is feeling ok, the conversation was good for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you were NOT deteremined to make it work </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that is completely true. i was not determined to make it work. it got to a point where i was only determined to not hurt anymore. i failed. i can accept that without feeling defensive, because the simple truth is I did fail.

I don't want to fail again. that is why i am here, that is why i am staying.

FL,

This is going to be disjointed as I don't have much time and we are sort of crossing paths here. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe the main problem here is that i am being forced to say it was all my fault. and that is hard to have to face. but the facts are pretty clear here, aren't they? it has been all my fault. and yet as soon as i type those words my insides want to yell NO. NO, i was not all your fault!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, the A was all your fault. The marriage was not all you fault. But, let's take the extreme view of this. It was ALL your fault. It does NOT invalidate what you say below. Further, it does not give your H a right to punish you. It is simply an admission of the past, not the present or the future. The point is even if you accept ALL of the blame for everything, it still means he had to change, he had to find a way to make you enjoy being his W. He had to address his failings. And you say he did that. So he KNOWS it is not all you fault. The A was. So don't stress over this OK? Here is why?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you are not a terrible person, you gave him your best for years, you were loving and kind, you provided financially, you were a great mom. i never turned him away for SF. he, himself has told me that. i really tried to be a great wife. i tried and tried</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is why it was NOT all your fault, and he knows it. You might remind him that you are willing to take all of the blame IF he will acknowledge that you did try. He knows these things or he would NOT be there now. FL, he KNOWS you are a keeper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The data on that is very clear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and all he ever did was push me away. I recall wanting to go to MC before i was even pregnant with our second child (the one that did not survive) because it was when we were in the old house. he just kept saying, nothing was wrong. so if he was so unhappy, like you said he probably was, why did he lie for years and tell me i was just imagining things, everything is fine, this is just the way marriage is. and then in MC he brings up stuff from when we dated, some of it was from the very first few months!! he has pushed me away from the beginning. why did he marry me?? the things he brought up as to why he became distant seemed crazy!! his decision to have no relationship with me for years is a decision too. no, he did not sleep with someone else, but he certainly did not love and cherish me. For YEARS!! that is breaking marriage vows too.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it is breaking marriage vows to because he VOWED to LOVE you. He committed to that. So what are you going to do with this information. Does he acknowledge that he did these things and that his why you gave up? You can tell him this is why. It is a reason, it is NOT an excuse as you know. YOu don't have to be angry when you deliver this information but calmly explain to him how YOU felt and what he did that made you feel this way. I am guessing you all have had this conversation before, when he decided to try. It not you should have.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">these are questions i wrestled with a lot over our marriage. and especially right before i decided divorce was the answer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is clear, and couple this with the last quote I going to list on this post it is clear WHY?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">having to go back in time, puts me back into the middle of all the turmoil i felt for the majority of our marriage. his comment that he is just not "into" kissing anymore as an answer to my request that we kiss more, his stmt that he cannot possibly love me the way karen and fred love each other because of all i have put him thru. his constant putting down of my family, my friends, my job (which is course is what allowed him to have the type of life we have!!) now i am really venting here, arent i??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, you are venting but is he into these things NOW? If not why not? Ask him. Is it because he saw too many kids making out in HS?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i know i was on the verge of a possible back slide and that is why i came here to post. not a back slide that would get me thinking i want to end it all and give up. but a back slide that would make me feel the need to be defensive (in case the last paragraph didn't make it clear, that is what i am feeling, not defiant, defensive) which is no way to be if my true goal is to move forward. and that is my true goal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good thinking and I am glad you came.


You also responded </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you were NOT deteremined to make it work

that is completely true. i was not determined to make it work. it got to a point where i was only determined to not hurt anymore. i failed. i can accept that without feeling defensive, because the simple truth is I did fail.

I don't want to fail again. that is why i am here, that is why i am staying.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that my dear is WHY? Coupled with his actions. You NOW know WHY? His actions and your failure to be determined. They make sense don't they. They are the natural consequence of both of you NOT focusing on the marriage as you should. Not that you didn't try, but to focus you needed you be "radically honest" with him early on.

Your last sentence is WHY? he should stay and do his best to make you happy. You can tell him that was well.

Talk to him. I know he is healing, but give him the reasons and explain they are NOT excuses. I think he will understand.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

FL,
I am gonna jump in here just to give you some perspective as to maybe why he did not start to change until the M was threatened. You sound alot like my W. It did anger her when I started to change once I saw there was somthing wrong. I know she resented that I really dug in and learned all I could about M. Like your H, I did not know that she had already started the A. I tried everything and could not understand why she would not respond.

I can see her perspective much better through your post. I really can't give an answer that would please you or my W for that matter. I can recall that before the A, I really did not understand anything about M. I can remember her telling me how good a H I was and that she was the envy of her friends. I knew of many marriages where the H did not treat his W right. I was measuring myself against other H's instead of really trying to find out how my W saw me. I really thought I was doing pretty well and could not understand why there were times where I could do nothing right. The bottom line is that I should have seen where change was needed but I didn't place her first in my life.

We got into a cycle where she would explode out of nowhere(I had no clue) and we would fight. She attacked and I defended. I can remember thinking this can't go on forever. I finally said I would go to a M conference with her. It was very good and I wanted to go again the next year. She admitted that she was unhappy during the conference, but I did not understand why because I did not know how to be the H she needed. We even started a marriage group study after the conference. Shortly after that conference, she started the A. 6 months later, she started showing major signs of withdrawal. I already had a mind set to improve the M, but I guess it was too late.

For the next 18 months I tried everything to make her love me again. Nothing worked because she was getting deeper into the A. A year ago it became evident that I had to radically change myself because I could not change her. I began the process of self change. By August 03, I uncovered the A. I had changed so much that she even said I was making headway with her while she was in the A. My reaction was calm and I knew I wanted to save the M and fully understood that I would have to pattern myself after God's way of being a H.

I have continued to endure rejection and I can tell you that none of my EN's are being met. Until the 6 month mark after dday, things were very unstable. The OM would sporadically make contact which of course impacted her. Through it all I have stayed committed to her and the M. I am learning how God meets my needs when she is not. I am learning about unconditional love and forgiveness. Things are getting better overall, but it is a choice that I make. Sure I have times where I want to quit, but somthing always gets me past it. She does just enough to keep me in the M and not quit. At some point she will need to commit to the M again. I will have to be patient and positive and avoid applying heavy pressure.

I now know what it takes to be a good H, but also still learning. I no longer withdraw when she rejects me. I communicate with her as much as possible. I even reach out to her when she is in a bad mood. I am making the necessary changes and adjustments and patiently waiting until she is ready. I know full well there are no guarantees as to her future commitment. I only know I can control my commitment. I understand your fear about your H and that your M will be like it was before. Chances are it will not ever be the same, but like JL pointed out it can be an opportunity for it to be better. You can influence your H to be more like you want your M to be, you just can't force him to change.

I don't have all the answers for you. There is a book called "The Five Love Languages" that you may want to take a look at. It was one of those books that changed me and helped me look at M from a different perspective. If you want your H to change you will have to commit to your M and it will take months and quite possibly years. It will not be easy, but I know you will benefit from it. You will have to recommit several times, but it will be worth it.

You both have a bond with each other that was not destroyed by the A or his rejection. You have to first accept him the way he is and then make the changes in your life that will bring about change in how he sees you. He will change because your love and commitment to him just like you changed because of his. Reward his good behavior and tell him when he does the right things. Focus on the positives and just love him. This will take time and to be honest, you both have a chance to be much closer than ever before. It takes time and resolve and it can start with you.

Christ's Love,
Roman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He knows these things or he would NOT be there now. FL, he KNOWS you are a keeper. The data on that is very clear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thanks. it's true, he is still here. that has to mean something and it can't possible be just because of the kids and the financial aspects of it all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does he acknowledge that he did these things and that his why you gave up? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, we talked about those things in MC. He acknowledges he did these things but he does not think that is reason enough to give up. and of course he does not believe that is reason enough to cheat on him either.

But then he did work on fixing those things. including the kissing. (we are unfortunately back to no kissing again these days though, he is not ready for that yet.)

thanks again for you time today JL. I am feeling better, the two times H and I talked on the phone today was good too. i tried to ask him how he felt about our talk but he said he does not know yet, that it takes him a day or two to absorb it all and decide. we didn't hug last night or this morning. i know this contributes to my mood. i know i just need to keep being patient. i am trying!!! wait, strike that, i am determined.

FL:

Whoa, girl! Remember: he's a guy!

We men don't see the world of interpersonal relationships the same as women all the time.

I will bet that he would tell someone else ( a 3rd party confidante) something like, "Oh, sure we have a few problems, but what marriage doesn't? It's not like I'm 100% happy 100% of the time, either. But, overall, things are pretty good."

In other words, yes he may have seen that there were areas for improvement, but when all was said and done, he WAS happy in his marriage. After all, things could be worse, and they aren't!

I would bet that he does feel things are still a little lopsided. Perhaps he's feeling like nothing is a problem unless you say it is, and you determine how big a problem it is, without input from him. In other words, he may be feeling sidelined.

For example, whenever I had an issue in our M and I tried to bring it up, my W would become hyperdefensive and then go on the attack. Not only was both my concern and I invalidated, but I was made to feel stupid for even having such a concern in the first place.

But, whenever she had an issue, it was to be addressed, and NOW!!! How DARE I question anything about it! Of course, since the problem invariably had to do with some deficiency on my part, the onus for change was on my part, too. I used to resent the fact that she never saw a place for her to change; just for me.

Sometimes, I used to wonder why she even married me. It seemed like she should have married someone entirely different to me, and she was trying to change me into that someone. I felt like I was losing myself, yet at the same time she was feeling so empty and neglected in the M because I was not giving her what she needed. She became bitter and I became discouraged by the gap between her expectations and her fulfillment.

After all, you can't make a pig fly.

So, suppose your H was more content in the R than you were? Is that a bad thing? Was that wrong? He had to change because you said he had to. What about what he wanted? Was there any room for a compromise (and I mean compromise, not a capitulation of one side for the sake of the other's)?

I also think your H is suffering from a sort of PTSD. It sounds like he is questioning his decision making abilities and his own judgement. Without those, a man is absolutely lost. It sounds like he is second-guessing himself, and then second-guessing his second-guessing.

Men are planners and doers. We see a situation, discern the problem (as we see it), formulate and implement a plan of action. Boom-boom-boom. We are not only "trained" to do this by society, we are wired to do this.

Don't forget, men and women do see relationships differently. Also, a lot of times we see our women get all wrapped up about relationship issues that we consider inconsequential, trivial, or even non-existent. My W would get all wrapped up about something her sister-in-law did, or a neighbor said, and even though I was present and witnessed the event, I was completely oblivious to all of the subtleties. Then, afterwards, W would talk to me about it, and I would be completely lost. Or, I would think, "No big deal. So-and-so made a faux pas, or W is taking things out of context, etc." I didn't take things to heart so much, or so I thought.

I now see that men and women do see relationships differently, and have different expectations from them. Thus, a man may be entirely comfortable in a relationship with someone whereas a woman may well find the same R wholly unsatisfactory.

Finally, this is an exhausting process. You are justifiably feeling fatigued. Marathon runners hit the "wall" when their stored glucose reserves are depleted and the only thing that can keeps them going is sheer guts. Recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself accordingly.

Hi Roman,

I have been thinking about you and wondering how you are doing. i'm glad you posted.

i did not realize how similar our situations were. by that i mean that you were working hard on improving the marriage (like my H) while your wife was having the A (like me).

i am glad my post can help you see your W's perspective better. I put the word "was" in bold when i talked about being mad at my H because i really do believe that is past tense. and the reason it became past tense is because i started to accept my part of the blame for the way the marriage was prior to the As. and because when i hit my lowest point, when i really turned to God, what i prayed for the most was help in letting go of the anger. and that was key for me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really can't give an answer that would please you or my W for that matter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sure you can: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The bottom line is that I should have seen where change was needed but I didn't place her first in my life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and you are doing that now and with God's help, it will all work out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nothing worked because she was getting deeper into the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">boy, can i relate to that!!! if anything, it just made things worse for a while. seems very crazy to say i was mad at him for improving, but that was exactly the situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have continued to endure rejection and I can tell you that none of my EN's are being met. Until the 6 month mark after dday, things were very unstable. The OM would sporadically make contact which of course impacted her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">has that stopped now or does he still contact her? is the A on going at all?? have you guys tried sending any kind of NC letter? does OM even know you know?? i hope so, because that really is manditory.

I have been fortunate in the sense that OM had never really put much pressure on me when ever i told him i had to back away. of course he always remained present enough to let me know i could contact him anytime i wanted and that did not help me much. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Through it all I have stayed committed to her and the M. I am learning how God meets my needs when she is not. I am learning about unconditional love and forgiveness. Things are getting better overall, but it is a choice that I make. Sure I have times where I want to quit, but somthing always gets me past it. She does just enough to keep me in the M and not quit. At some point she will need to commit to the M again. I will have to be patient and positive and avoid applying heavy pressure.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i am very impressed with your resolve to stick with it. as we just discussed, JL and I, my problem was not having that determination. that is what i strive for now. i know you don't want to put on heavy pressure but i tend to think you may need to put some pressure on her. i have said this to you before. in fact, pressure, is not the right word, but you do have to help her see what you need. you have to guide her to meet your needs.

I am sure your W will one day be able to see all you have done. it will be hard to see, because it also forces her to see what she lacks.

i will put that book on the list. i will look it up. i am still finishing the Beloved Disciple book and i want to read the other book by Beth Moore that you originally suggested, it was not in, the Beloved Disciple was. i forget the name now but i expect when i look at a list of books by Beth Moore, i will remember.

I am not reading as much as i should be. kids keep me busy reading things like Ella Enchanted to them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (for the second time!! the book is better than the movie, rebecca and i read it years ago, after seeing the movie she insisted dad and ryan read the book instead, which of course means mom reads the book to them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> at least it is not as long as the Harry Potter books!! i read most of those two times outloud too!!)

i really do think H and I are way ahead of the game here. I am very thankful for this site.

keep in touch.

thanks for the input uphill.

and for the chuckle: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, girl! Remember: he's a guy! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but seriously you do remind me of a very important thing: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, whenever I had an issue in our M and I tried to bring it up, my W would become hyperdefensive and then go on the attack. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i think i have been guilty of the same. I am trying really hard to not do that now. getting defensive gets you NO WHERE!!!

actually, he did finally admit, he was not happy with marriage but he didn't think it was going to change. maybe partly because i would get defensive. so he became distant instead and then he became comfortable being distant (these were all his words, not mine).

What is PSTD?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself accordingly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW, I KNOW!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> thanks.