I totally agree. I'm starting to think that this person in a fake because why would you want to hurt someone like that. This is almost perverted.

If you want out of your marriage, then grow a set of b**** and end the suffering for everyone involved. This is just plain ridiculous. I don't even want to think about the kind of pain your wife is going through.

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SadMarylandLady:
<strong> I told the same thing to my husband the other night. I said he wants to leave so he is not trying like he said and keeps contacting the OW just to hurt me so I will finally leave and he can leave saying well she gave up... People like this are the worse kind.. If you want your marriage to work do what you know needs to be done. You already know it's wrong. If you want the OW so bad and she has no faults then do your wife a favor and leave...Just stop acting like she is the fault of your affair. Nobody deserves the pain this causes. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You asked: "But what was I doing?"

Acting like someone who is really confused.

You said, "How can we ever get past it if she can't let it go."

YOU, not her, aren't "letting it go." You need to get some help to get through this. You have to do NC with OW. Hey, OW may be moving on while you are left at the station.

You said, "It just makes me think that maybe I am better with the OW. My W may not of changed and I don't know if she is capable of forgiving."

Repeat after me: "OW is NOT the answer." She is not what you think she is. As long as you are pining after her, you will never be able to resolve the issues with your W.

By the way, W won't want to jump in bed with you until you stop seeing OW.

I keep reading and being yelled at, but I am still confused. I think I am trying with my W, but I see so many problems before the A that led me to it. Maybe we were never right together. It's been a while since we were right.I don't know. I want to try with my W, but I don't know. How can I know?
I am taking my W away for the weekend, so I won't be posting, but I would like continued feedback and advice. I'm still intheFOG

Nobody is 'yelling' at you. What do you want? A pat on the back???

I think you already know what is the right thing to do and yes, it scary to go there and it's not going to be easy and there are going to be set-backs, hurt feelings and everything.

You keep saying what if, what if? Well, what if you choose OW and you find out that she isn't your soulmate after all? What then?

You need to NC the OW and start putting the energy that you were wasting with her into your W and your family. TELL your wife what you need. It may take time for her to hear and see you, because right now all she can feel is pain, BUT the time will come and she will hear and see you.

Enjoy your weekend!

Kati

Now that you know what problems made you turn to another woman then why can't sit down with your wife and talk about it... The past is the past now you have the ability to change things and make your marriage better for you and for her. Because I know there is things you will need to work on also. It takes two. And as long as you are are in any contact with the other woman you will not get over whatever feelings you have for her. If you truly want to work it out with your wife give her the true respect she deserves and break it off with the OW. Then you will see that you are able to work it out with your wife if she is still willing.

Just because no here said"why you poor baby," doesn't mean you're being yelled at. You will continue to be confused as long as you keep seeing the ow. Don't expect even the other ws's to agree with you about continuing to seeing the ow.

I do feel for the ws's who are truly in withdrawal. I do understand that someone could get into an affair without without looking for it. But I'm not going to be sympathic to someone continuing with the a and then saying it's the w's fault. Your w is 1/2 of the problems in the marriage, but you and the ow, NOT the w are 100% at fault for the a.

WS was my best friend for over 13 yrs., the whole time we together until his A. So to say OW is your best friend is a slap in the face to me. I don't mean to be cruel but as a BS I am feeling no sympathy right now for any WS's out there. It hurts like hell to find out that the person you loved the most could do this to you. Then you say OW isn't to blame and is concerned about your W? What a crock of crap. OW is mean and selfish. Where was her concern when she was s******* someone else's H? Same thing my OW said, "Oh, I have so much respect for you." That's her idea of respect? I posted Does WS ever go into withdrawal over us? because I needed some answers and wanted WS's out there to know that in my opinion I would rather have had every bone in my body broken than to have learned that the man I loved with all my heart was having an A with a cheap bar w****. And not only have an A but left me for her and got her pregnant.
OK, I'm done yelling at you, but please for one minute consider what your wife is going through, and trust me you think you are hurting, it doesn't come close. Work on your M and let OW work on herself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hi inthefog...i am trying to get my WS back into this forum...i hope he does...i told him about you. He is in the same position as you are with the same feelings.

Have you ever wonder how come you WS all have the same feelings and reaction? It is the same with us all BS.

Your BS flipping over about you telling her the truth is the same thing i would have done.

She needs to grief over it then she will be okay.

Keep to NC.

Inthefog

Please believe me when I say the only way out of this mess is No Contact, not ever. You must find a way to let go of the OW.. Only then will you be able to work on things with your W and only then will the pain of what you have done to your marriage begin to heal.

You are living in a fantasyland where your OW is this perfect person.. it is all illusion and the only reason you cant stop is because you are addicted to her and the way she makes you feel.

I have lived this as the FWW and all I feel these days is remorse and guilt for what I put my husband through... I was selfish and irresponsible to get involved with the OM..I thought it was love and all it was really was fantasy and the illusion of love..

NC is the only way out of this hell.. You must make a decision to stop the bleeding.. End things and dont look back.. Find some strength and just do it.

Keep posting and reading.. you can do it.. I wish you strength and the guts to get off the fence and do the right thing..

Lmh

"Posted by meremortal on another thread"

Hi Mr E,

My children have also witnessed some of my WH's lies. They are very angry and hurt because of the way their father has lied and behaved because of his lust for the OW. It's as though him having an affair is bad enough, but then he lost even more of their respect and trust because of his foggy behavior.

I tried to explain to them that he's like an addict. And it's like saying, 'yea, I know he's an alcoholic, but why is he slurring his speech and stumbling when he tries to walk?'... BECAUSE THAT is what adultery makes you act like. And sneaking more on the side after you've promised loved ones it's over, lying to cover it up, is what an addict acts like. I also tried to explain to my kids the chemical nature of 'falling in love', that it really is like a chemical addiction. I even told them when their father promises and tries to stay away from the OW the withdrawal makes him crave her even more. And that the only way he can feel better (immediately) is to go get another fix from her.

I stresssed THAT is why adultery is so dangerous - because it influences the adulterers to hurt those they love the most and to say and do monstrous things. And it all starts out feeling like so much fun, just a tiny bit of secret pleasure that nobody needs to find out about and that the adulterers are sure they can control...

I wish I could tell you that helped my children be more understanding of their father, more willing to forgive him... But it didn't.

The WS probably does feel very ashamed. Maybe that's why they lie to sneak another fix and cover it up? I think they are very embarrassed too. And they want to pretend it's all your fault... that you're just not reacting properly (um - to their continued betrayal - their addiction isn't the problem... your unwillingness to help them cover it up is...)

Maybe your WW really feels as if she can't help herself? I bet she's afraid she can't kick her addiction once and for all. And imagine how embarassing it must be to her deep down inside that she's acting like such a love-sick fool... over an OM that she took court action to make HIM stay away from HER... but now she wants/needs to see him so badly she can't resist.
And you (and your oldest child) know she is behaving so shamefully. And (of course) it hurts you (which you then express as anger).
From her perspective, no matter what she chooses she will have to suffer a lot of pain.

It will (hopefully) eventually come down to her realizing that she will have to make the decision based on what is right, what will least hurt those she loves, and which man she can really rely on to stand by her through recovery.
Hopefully she will see that man is you.

Unfortunately, some WS's really struggle with giving up the OP. Your wife sounds like she's headed down the same path my WH took. He would make promises to us only to break them and go back to OW - literally dozens of times. Now we're all fed up with him and most of the time don't even want to ever see or talk to him again.
And no matter how the adulterers try to assure themselves otherwise, the kids DO take this as a betrayal and rejection of themselves too, not just of the BS. The longer the WS merely flirts with giving up the OP, lying to the BS and kids, going back to the OP over and over again, the more bridges they burn.

There are some practical steps she can take to help battle her addiction: AD's, IC, support groups (like this message board), books to read, spending time away from the temptation (like going on a vacation with you - with or without the kids). Is she willing to try any of those things? Even if she isn't, if you are the one offering to help her overcome her addiction and suggesting ways to ease withdrawal pains (without going back for another hit), maybe she will be able to trust you to help her through this?

And although your anger is certainly understandable, your best chance will be a loving but firm approach. Don't fall for her bait to argue. And even when you catch her having contact with OM and lying again, try to remain calm. Try telling her you realize how difficult this must be for her, how it must be scary and embarrassing to feel she can't control her desire to contact OM. Assure her you can and will help her IF/WHEN she makes a firm committment to recovery and no contact with OM.
But you can't help her until she chooses to make that committment.

If/when you go to Plan B - make sure you've done a really good Plan A for a while first.

I think my WH's ability to get me to respond emotionally - either with anger or with crying gave him even more confidence that he could get away with it a little longer. It's the calm, firm reactions that really get them worrying IMO. I've read that the opposite of love isn't hate, but indifference. As long as the WS can still get an emotional reaction from the BS, they probably don't worry too much about losing us?

[ April 30, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

Although this was not posted "to you", it addresses many of the issues you are facing right now. You simply cannot fathom how much pain you have inflicted on your W. It seems that we "humans" have some kind of a serious flaw, in that when we know we have committed an extraordinarily huge offense against another, we seek every known excuse, and manufacture other excuses, to validate that behavior.

It also seems that the offending party will go to any length to deny their responsibility for the action committed, and for any pain it may cause. Even moreso, the self-denial in all of this is beyond comprehension. How individuals, who have been living lives of respectability, integrety, honesty and responsibility can cast away a reputation built over a lifetime in just a few short days, weeks, or months, for just a few moments with the OP, is also incomprehensible.

All of us are weak. None of us are infallible. But when the results of your continued contact have been explained to you in such great detail, from people who KNOW so well both sides of the devastation of an affair, AND you cannot come to grips with the reality of it all, then it may well be that your soul has been damaged beyond repair.

Only you can begin the journey down the right path. Your fate is in your hands, only. There will be no one to save you from the pain you will have to experience now, no matter which path you choose.

I wish you well

SD

Ok, ITF,

Let's lay out your choices...

1) Stay with your wife

Pros - it's the right thing to do given your vow of committment. You have unprecedented opportunity here to improve your relationship with her. You have opportunity to improve who YOU are. If ultimately unsuccessful, you have the peace of mind of knowing you gave it your all.

Cons - Your wife may never bee able to forgive you or change and you will divorce before long anyway. OW may move on wiht her life and find love elswhere.

2) Go to the OW

Pros - The way you deal with your wife will change. You can shed responsibility for that relationship. Don't have to worry about actually solving problems wiht you if you just keep changing the setting. You'll get to experience the "honeymoon high" again - for a while.

Cons - You don't learn to change and you just take your same bad habits with you to the new relationship. They'll eventually bite you in the [censored] with the OW. The affair high crash will be severe and merciless. You both will experience disappointment with the situation once the smoke clears. You don't really know this person like you think you do. You don't even know YOU very well. You'll have to live with this decision the rest of your life.

3) Leave both women

Pros - Allows you time to focus on repairing yourself, free of the expectations another. Let's you focus on defining who you are apart from anyone else. You may find inner peace.

Cons - You have to skip out on responsibilities to your family (Note: you have no responsibility to the OW). Tends to be view as a very selfish behavior. Let's you "run away" rather than face the demons. You end up alone.

4) Maintain the status quo

Pros - Sex and stroking from two women as long as they will play the game.

Cons - Ugly divorce, OW fed up, loss of genital integrity at the hands of one or both women. Continued stress and guilt. If you survive, you ultimately end up alone.

So, if you view the ledgers of these options, I think you could make a case for Option 1 being your least cost option.

No decision you make at this point will be easy. You're standing at the top of a mountain and you have to choose a direction to jump.

Bear this in mind:

Once you make a decision, it doesn't mean you can't change it. Depending on the decision you make, it could seriously impact the possibility you could be successful at another on if you change course. If you "fall off the wagon" occasionally, it doesn't mean you can't get back on it.

You are like an alcoholic at this point. I don't believe any recovering alcoholic will tell you that he gave up his one chance at happiness by going sober...

Low

Okay, I see the problem now!

I think I am trying with my W, but I see so many problems before the A that led me to it.
The ONLY problem that led you to an affair is that you chose to continue with the ow when you KNEW where it was going & you KNEW it was wrong.
There is not ONE SINGLE thing your wife did which “led” you to an affair.

Take ownership of the fact that YOU screwed up! Don‘t pass it off on your wife!

When you see ow, and especially on purpose, then tell your wife, don’t be surprised OR upset if she gets pissed off at you.
You are simply letting her know that your own feelings are more important than her.

Not sure what to say about our weekend. My W and I did laugh, but there was a lot of tension in the air. I kept thinking about OW and how she would of been different if I would of took her. On the drive home, W blew up at me. She wanted to talk about OW and said terrible things about her, things I know are not true. I thought if we went away I could see if it was my W that I wanted. Now I am even more confused. Some days I can't imagine giving my W up and other days I just don't care. How do I get out of this FOG and know?

ITF,

Of course OW would have behaved differently. Imagine you own two dogs. One you pet and praise and give treats to. You take it on fun outings and lavish attention on it. The other you feed when you think of it and maybe you scratch it behind the ears on rare occasion - but you're more likely to hit it or kick it. Do you think they'll behave differently?

Your W blew up because she is more hurt and angry than you can possibly imagine.

You will know whether your W is "right" for you after you cease contact with the OW for several months.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to see your W toss you to the curb. You are treating her horribly. If you think there's a glimmer of a chance you want to be with your W you'd better get yourself under control and go to extraordinary measures to earn her trust.

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

The thing that always kills me about this same old situation...

is the refusal, denial, inability to step back and look at the ROLE that you play in this triangle that YOU created...

first of all let go of the desire for a written garuntee...that comes with major appliances...not relationships....

none of your affair "just happened"...none of it....it was YOUR ACTIONS that created it...
and it is YOUR PRESENT ACTIONS that keep you happily waffling....and being only open to and receptive to some difinitive sign that your wife is the one....

you have been disrepecting your wife and this OW for a long long time....
pretty sad eh....

the anatomy of your actions to make your affair are so much of your own creation and making but your denial to see your role in this...and your strong need to rationalize the affair as if out of your control is so typical...

to have an affair.....for two years running...
even before the actual affair....in the earliest stage...
your first action...YOUR FIRST ACTION inthe...

is to alienate your wife...and create her to be the "enemy" ...so that you can justify and rationalize all your actions ..

for two years you have processed your thought processes that filter...taking the person you were to be cherishing....and you made her your enemy....

I look at the things the OW and I have done and I don't think I ever enjoyed doing them with my W.

I kept thinking about OW and how she would of been different if I would of took her.

There's the filter in side YOUR head....that you use over and over...

you cling to
grab on to
entertain those thought over and over....
and then claim victim status to this at the same time....

It's been a while since we were right.I don't know. I want to try with my W, but I don't know.

sure it has...cause you turned away from your wife two years ago...
to justify your affiar...and feelings for the OP...you had to villify all things with wife since...even the good happy times you have had with your wife for the past two years since your affair started have been judged unfairly by you to be not quite happy enough..
not quite good enough...
just not quite....


cause you know why?...if you just let yourself enjoy yourself with your wife...and really appreciate being with her and who she is...how do you continue to justify the affair...
for surely to not be the bad guy in the affair..
and surely to risk so much ...
it must be special...and surreal and out of your control...

you bring to your wife a smack of never being quite right...so that what you have with the OW...always is "right"

blech,,,,,,

sounds exhausting.
sounds lonely

but you always can have that wonderful hobby of comparing how great OW is....vs how wrong wife is...

the minds ability to twist and rationalize is truly amazing...

ARK

is your W willing to post here? I suspect it would help her a lot...awed

Please send your victim to us and let us help her. It would also help you immensely if we could work with her and help her avoid blasting you. We could help her help you get yourself out of this unholy mess. You don't have to tell her your screen name or show her this thread. Just send her to us, please.

ITF,

You don't mention if you have son's or daughter's or both.

I'd like for you to put them in your shoes for just a second...

What advice would you give your son if he came to you and told you what you have posted here? Would you tell him to throw away the love and respect he had with his wife of 11 years for some "woman" he only knows the "good" side of? (and I used the word "good" VERY loosely)

Or would you tell him that he should try to move mountains if he has to in order to keep his childrens respect and admiration...teach them that yes, parents DO make mistakes and ARE human, but LEARN from the mistakes and they aren't in vain.

What would you tell your daughter if she were to come to you and say, "Daddy, my H is cheating on me and seems to rub it in my face, and the pain is too much to bear at times...What should I do?"

Do you tell your daughter, "Well Sweetie, your H probably met his soulmate and while he most likely still loves you, maybe he's not still "in love" with you, and you should just let him go be with the woman that his heart sings for. Your kids will be SO much happier as long as their Daddy is happy...and just think, your kids will get NEW PLAYMATES in the process! Look at the bright side!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Ummmmmmm.........no

You'd tell your daughter to "dump the bum" and then you'd want to take a big ole chunk outta his a$$ for hurting your baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

You'd tell your son to do anything he could to protect your grandkids from further pain...to get his head outta his a$$ and work on his marriage of 11 years.

So exactly WHY are YOU so confused??? This OW is NOT precisely what you project her to be.
My hubbys OW would say things like "I don't want to be the reason you leave your wife and kids" Then in almost the same breath she'd say "Wouldn't it be GREAT if we got an apartment together? My son just LOVES you"

She, too, told my H that her ex wasn't nearly as good to her as my H was...then again, my H told her all the things I was doing wrong, but neglected to mention all that HE was doing wrong to me.
I ask you to think if THIS is a woman you'd want as a role model for your kids. Are YOU a role model you want for them? Make no mistakes, you are destroying your relationship with them.

I have 3 kids. At the time of my H's A they were 14,13 and 12. They DID know something was wrong. They now have incredible difficulty respecting their Dad for the pain he's caused us all. My son is in therapy for rage problems, and my 13 year old daughter began cutting herself when this all started.

We are ALL doing better 2 years post d-day. My M is stronger than it ever was. My H and I are closer than even when we were dating. He did go through withdrawl, and he also questioned what was "the right" thing to do FOR HIM. It wasn't untill he stepped back and looked at what was BEST for ALL OF US that the fog lifted.

Best wishes and be well,
nutcase3

How do I get out of the fog and find out?

That was your last question.

Write the OW a sincere letter. Tell her how you feel about her, whatever it is. But tell her that you have a wife who has given you 11 years of her life, and before you can commit to her (OW) you need 6 months to see if you and your W can work things out. This 6 months will require absolutely No Contact with the OW.

Surely your newfound "soulmate" would agree to this. You should let her know that you want to be absolutely sure your love for her (OW) is real, and that 6 months couldn't possibly be an obstacle to that end. Then you would know that you are making the right decision. You can commit to being "hers" forever if/when it doesn't work out with your wife.

In the mean time, send your wife to this forum, so she can learn how to deal with your withdrawal. So she can be a willful, educated soldier in this battle.

I believe if you do this, you will know what your best choice is, in less than a month. Is that too much to ask?

SD

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Fog,

Although I respectfully disagree with Shattered Dreams on the path to take,I would ask you to go back and reread what Low Orbit wrote to you and then think about this: you are expecting way too much from your W right now and also expecting to see some kind of sign that will tell you that you should be with your W.That is too much pressure to put on anyone when you consider your circumstances.She has a lot of anger and resentment,not to mention pain and so she will not be able to be all peaches and cream right now and this OW IS going to try and be all peaches and cream because SHE HAS AN AGENDA,to pull you out of your marriage FOR HERSELF.

This OW IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING WHAT YOU FANTASIZE ABOUT ALL THE TIME.Only when it serves her purpose.You will never be able to convince anyone that this OW doesn't have an agenda and when someone sets out to destroy a family and a marriage,you need to wake up and see who this person really is,NOT WHAT IS FOR SHOW.You can't see the forest for the trees,so pull back and look at the big picture.

How do you do that,stop all contact with the OW forever.Not 6 months,8 months,2 years,FOREVER.Until you make that change and decide that you will work on your marriage for however long it takes and make that the priority,then you will be pining away for OW and stuck ETERNALLY in LIMBO.Is that how you want to live your life and for your loved ones to live with you?

O