shattered dreams,
Write the OW a sincere letter. Tell her how you feel about her, whatever it is. But tell her that you have a wife who has given you 11 years of her life, and before you can commit to her (OW) you need 6 months to see if you and your W can work things out. This 6 months will require absolutely No Contact with the OW.
Absolutely the worst thing he could do. This will keep BOTH of them hanging on for six months.

Surely your newfound "soulmate" would agree to this. You should let her know that you want to be absolutely sure your love for her (OW) is real,
Uh, he’s married. Why are your recommending he profess his love for the ow, to the ow?

You can commit to being "hers" forever if/when it doesn't work out with your wife.
And this type of a letter almost guarantees it WON’T work out with his wife.
He’ll simply be gritting his teeth the entire time, waiting for six months to go by, rather than working on his marriage.

Let the ow go. Let her be free to find someone, who she CAN be with.

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

So much of what you say about my OW is wrong. She did feel terrible about what she was doing to my W, but she loves me and we are happy together. OW would often tell me to work it out with my W for the kids sake. OW has children of her own and didn't want mine to go thru what hers did. My W keeps saying that I am defending OW. Maybe I am, but OW is not selfish. We needed each other and it started as friends and the next thing I knew I was in love with her. OW has even given me advice on how to make it work with my W.
Of course my W on the other hand has only negative things to say about OW.
I don't know what to do. I love my W, but I love OW. They are both wonderful. I just don't know which one I will be happier with, and I don't want to lose the wrong one. My W was miserable for most of our weekend. Moping and crying. It was disgusting and I am getting tired of it, but then I feel bad. OW is being understanding about where I am at.

You and your OW sound totally compatible - you are both cruel and selfish. Please just do your wife a favor and leave. You are obviously not going to give up this "wonderful" OW so let your wife go and find someone who will love her the way she deserves to be loved. It may be cruel and hurtful in the beginning, but it will be much kinder to your wife in the long run. I don't care how much I love my WH, if I knew about continued contact with the OW he would not be living in the same house and I would be moving on without him. What you are doing now is more painful than the affair itself. If you can't let this "wonderful" person go then be a man and leave.

Octobergirl and Chris... I understand your disagreement with my post.

Truthfully, it was intended to be wry, if not sarcastic. Nothing that has been posted to our "fogbound" friend has pierced his armor.

I believe if he contacted the OW for whatever reason, and began the NO CONTACT immediately, for a 6 month period, intheFOG would have seen the warts come out immediately, and the selfish nature of the affair, from her standpoint, would become obvious.

If you will see my previous posts to intheFOG, this last post was "way out of the box" as compared to MB principles, which I believe in, and which have saved my marriage.

I hope you'll not think I'm quite so "off my rocker", as prompted your responses <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've really come to believe that intheFOG is not open to making the proper decisions at this point!

SD

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

ITF,

I really don't know what to say to you anymore and I'm gonna leave it up to more seasoned professionals on the board here to give you the guidance that you are asking for. I'm at a loss...

One thing though, you say that your wife only has negative things to say about OW. Well, duh! What do you expect her to say about the woman who is sleeping with HER husband. Do you want her to give the OW a high five or better yet share tips and ideas on how to better 'serve' you? Come on..., get real! Of course, she is going to say negative things. She is humiliated and hurt and she probably does not know of any other way to get it thru to you how MUCH she is hurting. I get it now... I really don't think that you realize how much your wife is hurting. Otherwise you would not post such nonsense about how 'disgusting' it is to YOU that your wife is moping and sad.

This thread is starting to p*** me off because you keep posting the same thing over and over, but yet you are not making any progress in EITHER directions. Same thing, day in, day out...

You need to get a life!

Kati

the price you and your ow are willing to pay is to high for the children involved....

It is born of selfishness and futility....because the base catalyst for the affair were as reported by you things missing in your marriage...

you attempt to fill and and fix those things by involving the ow....is illogical as a means to fix the marriage in the first place...

there is nothing that has been said about your OW that is not true...

regardless of what lip service you pay to the word of love...
yours and her actions are not loving....

I just don't know which one I will be happier with,
is that about the fifth time said in this post.?

the other truth is that neither have the power to make you happy...

neither can garuntee your happiness in the future...

no matter where YOU go there YOU will be....
broken on the inside...attempting to fix it with outsiders...be it your wife or OW,,,or whoevers next in line.....

you want things fixed...yet you do none of the work to fix things....
you just use others to fill what makes the pain go away...

you play victim..

when will the fog end
when will I feel differently
when will things change for me...you ask over and over.....

and do no work to change or fix anything...

the questions is asked...

why are you at a marriage builders site...when the title itself is an action and verb...

and when do plan on starting to build your marriage....
or do you just want victim status personna and wait for the epiphany of which woman will supply you with eternal happiness...

ARK

You wonderful MBers are doing a fantastic job. If you'd written to me like that when I was in the fog I'd have been so grateful. Not like real "In the Fog" who would do his wife a favour if he left her. As it was I was lucky that JL was the first person who responded to me here and it's been recovery ever since.

Maybe one day he'll look back and wonder why he didn't listen to you.

I just wanted to add that if H had said NC for 6 months I would have just waited it out. H actually said "If you ever contact him again I'm out of here." and that worked for me.

Keep it up - you people are fantastic.

Jenny

except kiwi it is less painful to bang your head on the monitor screen then read this garbage of pain.....

rationalizing...

but I'm sure his children only want their dad to be happy..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

ark

I was just thinking I'm a bit like a reformed smoker - they're the toughest on smokers.

You know I was as deep in the fog as ITF, perhaps I should be a bit more sympathetic. The difference is I was really ready to listen, to H, to MBers, to my friends. In my heart I knew what everyone was saying was true and I was open to all advice.

My poor H, having to deal with all the s**t that goes with fog and withdrawal.

Jenny

I just don't get it... Fog when you were dating your wife didn't you try your best to do and say the right things to make her want to be with you? Don't you think your perfect OW is doing the same thing? You say she has been cheated on and her husband left her so maybe you could ask her how much pain a spouse feels when they are betrayed. I'm sure she knows you may leave your wife and be with her. So she is going to act like the caring, concerned, perfect homewrecker. Like I said many times I am a BS and my husband will not stop contact with his OW. I can tell you the pain of knowing he is still calling her is so bad. Especially when I love him still so much. I still ask many questions and say things about his OW. You can't tell me if you were in my shoes or your wifes shoes that you would be so forgiving and never mention the other person. You wouldn't be angry or upset? Do you think realizing your spouse could do something like this is so easy to get over? I really don't know what is going to make you wake up other than breaking contact with this OW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I am trying with my W, but I see so many problems before the A that led me to it. Maybe we were never right together. It's been a while since we were right.I don't know. I want to try with my W, but I don't know. How can I know?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked the same question before I got married. You can't know for sure. But you can look at all of us who have been through a very similar situation as you or your W. You can take a leap of faith that if so many people are saying the marriage builders principles worked for them that it's likely they will work for you too.

I found out about my H's affairs one year ago. It had been a while since things in our M had been right--just like you. I was so fortunate to have found this site and seen the value of the EN questionnaire. That's a great place to start. Use it to start a discussion with your W about what is/was missing in your M. My guess is if you are willing to stick out the pain of withdrawal and commit to NC, and to working on your M, that she will commit to learning about and meeting your ENs. I did. Like others here, my M is better than it was before. My H is so happy (you can see his post to me on the recovery forum) even though he was very unhappy for years before and during his A's. We were able to work through all of those problems that we had. At first I "didn't know" if it would work and neither did my H. He was very hesitant to give up his friendship with FOW. It only took a few days before we knew it would work. It took months of hard work, but we could tell right away that we were headed in the right direction. We could see the first signs of progress early on.

Marriage counselling sure helped! We only went for a short time, but it did wonders. We still use the tools we learned.

I agree with the others that you should stop hurting your W. But your confusion and indecision and staying in the fog is hurting you too.

So much of what you say about my OW is wrong.
Why are you defending her?
Who cares what she is? It makes no difference if she is as good as Mary or as bad as the devil.
She chose to get involved with a married man and she chose to continue on with a married man.
Leave her out of it and go back to your wife.

I don't know what to do.
Sure ya' do. You're just afraid to do it.

1 - Give up ow. Go through a short time of getting your head screwed on straight, FINALLY wake up, see that we were right, make your marriage wonderful and shake your head wondering who was in your body at this time.

2 - Give up wife and divorce. Be "happy" with ow for a short while & then watch it all fall apart (and it will). Then resent yourself for the rest of your life, knowing that you destroyed your wife's happiness, ow's happiness and your own happiness.

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not sure what to say about our weekend. My W and I did laugh, but there was a lot of tension in the air. I kept thinking about OW and how she would of been different if I would of took her. On the drive home, W blew up at me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W was miserable for most of our weekend. Moping and crying. It was disgusting and I am getting tired of it, but then I feel bad. OW is being understanding about where I am at. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is it, was their tension with laughter UNTIL the ride home or was she moping and crying? Which story are we supposed to believe? Maybe this is a fake? If not, I just gave you one of your MANY FOG BRAINED CLAIMS about your wife. One minute you give one story and then the next minute your re-write it to justify OW.

Why do you come here for advice FOG? Let's get real shall we? You are nowhere near close to giving up this saintly OW right? You have a rebuttal for every piece of advice we are trying to give you.

We have taken the time out of our lives,out of our pain and suffering to help someone like you(ws) that is in an A but if you continue to come here and defend this abhorrent behavior of yours,you will start to lose support.If you TRULY want to save your marriage and need help doing so,we will help but right now it is painfully apparent that you are up to your neck in this sordid A and are rationalizing away like I haven't seen in quite some time.You also are very confused and keep communicating conflicting ideas.Do you not see that you are in dire need of some serious professional help? If not let me be the first to tell you.

O

I just want to thank all of you who have taken the time to respond to ITF and to take swings with those 2x4s! I am a BS and I swear my H is in EXACTLY the same spot as ITF. I could swear it is him posting except he didn't take me away this weekend and his OW doesn't have kids (at least not as far as I know). It is incredible how they all seem to follow this same script and don't realize it.

So thank you for being so eloquent and saying things that I can't find the proper words to express to my H. I am sending him copies of this thread with the hopes that 1) he will actually read it, 2) that he will recognize himself in this, and 3) that it will make some kind of dent in the armor. Lord knows nothing and no one has been able to do that up to this point. I just keep praying.

In the fog, if you are for real, the comments you make about your OW are so laughable. I wish I could remember them all. How she feels badly about your W, but she LOVES you. How she doesn't want your kids to go through the pain her kids went through. How she encouraged you to work things out with W. OMG, and you actually buy this BULL****! And your wife is such a "B" for actually speaking unkindly about the OW. What's wrong with that W anyway? Doesn't she realize how much the OW cares about her, and never talks badly about her? OK, so maybe the OW is screwing her H, but honestly, what's the big deal? Why can't your W just be pleasant to be around like the lovely OW always is?

In the fog, I didn't get to live this fantasy out with my H because he actually is in NC. Hopefully he'll keep it this way. So I'll pass this fantasy on to you since you are totally disrespecting your W. Let's fast forward about 2 yrs. You've left your W for the perfect OW. I think you have kids, right? Your W and your kids are probably living in your house I hope. I'm hoping your W made out really good in the divorce settlement. Your kids' lives are altered forever, and frankly they have no respect for you. Along with many other people who used to care about you. Now you and OW are out in the open. No more fantasy bubble world. When you are feeling depressed because you lost your family, I wonder how you will be looking at OW when the chemical high has left your body. When you're feeling crabby and start to show that side to OW, I wonder how admiring, loving, and fun she'll be. Oh, this is the best part. Your W, because she never lost her integrity, and fought to save her M, she'll be doing much better than you. She will have recovered and will have moved on. Maybe she will even have met someone worthy of her love.

My fantasy goes on and on. But of course you can't picture any of this, because life is just too wonderful with your OW. Why do you even call yourself "in the fog". You obviously don't think you are in a fog, this is the REAL thing. IN-LOVE!!!!! How about posting when you really want to work at your M, OK? Maybe if you're lucky your W won't have kicked you to the curb saying "Adios!" CV

My H tried the same thing taking me away for the weekend. However it wasn't what either of us thought, because we never communicated what we wanted out of it.
Being a BS, I can bet your wife wanted a romantic weekend where you told her you loved her and wanted things to be right between the two of you and that you were willing to try.
My H on the other hand wanted to "test" us and see if we could get along. What he failed to realize that was I was taking so much of the baggage with us. H wasn't meeting my needs and I felt frustrated and again unloved. There was no way for success. If your W mopped and cried, perhaps it was because of the way you made her feel during the trip. You have no idea how it is like wanting to show someone what they have and keeping all the emotions under control,all the while being hurt by their actions and words.
My heart aches for your W, because you have no idea of the pain she is living. Your wife has stuck by you and is fighting for you. Can't you recognize that is a deep love? Could you say the OW would do the same? Did she stick by her husband? And don't tell me the situation was different. You are hurting your W and eventually will lose her.

Ok, I can understand the reaction here, but I am trying to work through things. First to clarify about the weekend. We did laugh when we were away and doing things. We got home early Sunday and she mopped and cried the rest of the day.
I am very confused and I am wanting advice, but it is hard to follow. My W is wonderful, but I just don't know if we can have what we once did. I blame her for the A because things weren't right before it. I know I'm not supposed to, but I am. I also don't see her staying the way she currently is. I have tried NC with OW, but I miss her so much. I am still trying. Does it get easier?

I have tried NC with OW, but I miss her so much. I am still trying. Does it get easier?

what does that mean exactly...

are you in no contact this very minute...and the next minute...

because until you put yourself in to no contact...
and stay there...
and actively engage your brain to break the thought processes that you have programed your brain to think of about her....instead of going away with wife...and entertaining thought after thought of the OW..

THEN...


you aren't doing a damn thing to fix anything...
and it ain't your wife that needs as much fixing as you like to believe it is...
but you sure are quick to question her changes...when you don't change at all..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


AND
do you ever answer anyones questions...ever...or do you just skim their responses, posts, and suggestions and cry poor poor me..some more...

so what is the truth here...the real truth are you in contact with the OW


ark

<small>[ May 04, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I can understand the reaction here, but I am trying to work through things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bullsh1t <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Okay, I'll be fair and open minded. What concrete things have you done? Not what things have you thought about doing, or "tried" to do, but what have you DONE? I spent a lot of time (as did other posters) indicating what needs to be done. Which of those things have you actually done? Here's a cut-and-paste from earlier in this same thread:

First of all, you should send a NC letter (No Contact) to the OW. This should NOT include any lovey-dovey, "maybe one day", "perhaps if things were different" type talk. It should only state:
- What you did was wrong
- You love your wife
- You are going to work on your marriage
- She should never ever contact you for any reason nor by any means

You should show this letter to your W and mail it together.

You should change cellphone numbers.
You should make all phone records available to your W.
You should make all financial records available to your W.
You should delete any emails from OW and put a rule on your account(s) blocking further emails from her.
You should share all email passwords with your W.
You should tell your W *immediately* of any contact attempted by OW.
You should offer to install spyware on your computer if your W wants you to.
You should throw away any mementos, cards, gifts, etc. associated with OW.
You should answer ALL of your W's questions with complete honesty and vulnerability.
You should read "Surviving An Affair" by Harley with your W.


I'm listening. Which of those things have you done?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very confused and I am wanting advice, but it is hard to follow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We know that and we understand. That is why we are being so blunt and tough with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W is wonderful, but I just don't know if we can have what we once did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is understandable. I'm sure it causes you some fear, considering leaving OW who "feels" so good on the chance that you and your W might be able to have what you once did. I'll let you in on some things: you don't want what you had with your W. It was, in some way, "broken". You want something better. Happily, your W is still with you so you have a chance to build something much better with her. OW has proven she is incapable of doing the hard work of assessing a marriage in trouble and making necessary repairs. Your W, on the other hand, is a real gem in this respect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I blame her for the A because things weren't right before it. I know I'm not supposed to, but I am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At least you're honest about it, and not just spouting lies because they're what you're "supposed" to feel. Usually both parties are responsible for a marriage not being all it could be. Only one person is responsible for the A, and that is the person who gets into one. You and your W both need to make changes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also don't see her staying the way she currently is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she won't. You need to act quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried NC with OW, but I miss her so much. I am still trying. Does it get easier? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It only gets easier if you do NC, not if you try NC.

I'm serious about wanting to know what you've actually done to try to work on your M. Please respond.