My W and I had a discussion this morning about OM, NC and full disclosure. I told her that in order for us to move forward and work on our M there must be not more contact with OM. A week ago she told me she hadn't had any contact with OM for a few weeks - and that may have been true.

But... yesterday I checked her voice mail and she had a message from OM. It was about possible job opportunities with a pharm co (sales). She has contiinued to pursue a new career in pharm sales since the fall. The OM in is pharm sales (he even got her an interview with his company in the fall). Anyway, the job was not with his company, but it shows me she is having contact with OM - she says it's only help finding a job.

This morning I told her that in order for us to work thru this A, there cannot be any contact with OM. I needed to know if she was committed to working on our M and that there would be a NC letter sent to OM. Also, there needed to be full disclosure about the A because I'd rather have the truth (even if it hurts to hear) than to go on and have my own imagination create its own truth. I need to feel secure/safe in our M, and I thought she wanted the same. I told her we have to have a plan and set boundries, see a MC and not just pretend nothing ever happened. She said she thought she could do the NC and tell me the truth - but I'm not really convinced.

She responded by saying that up until a couple of months ago she didn't think there was any hope for our M, but now thinks there may be. As we talked she said there were things she needed out of our M as well. I said I need to know what those are. Then it sounded like she wants me to be like OM. Then reversed and said I used to be that way - sounded alot like recreating our history. Again went into how OM was the total opposite of me. FOGSEE?? I think so.

She said she didn't want the whole A thing held over her head for the rest of our lives and wasn't going to be trapped in our M because of it. I responded by saying that it would always be a part of our lives, just like every decision we each make always is, but we can learn from it. She got angry and said, well then just tell every body about it - call your parents, call her parents, tell everyone at work, let the whole world know and if asked she would just say "that's right - it happened". I told her that it's no longer a secret anyway, but I wasn't out to intentionally cause her pain. She said she wasn't affraid of being on her own or being divorced. I said I wasn't either and if she thought I hadn't already thought thru all of the scenarios (divorce, being on my own, with someone else) she was wrong. I have thought thru it many times, but I wanted to be married to her and work to get thru this. Then she exploded and said she was done with us and tired of all of this.

I was firm about exactly what I wanted/neededn and the direction I thought we needed to proceed. Is that a LB?? I didn't think I was doing that. Could she still be in the fog? Does she just want to NOT have to deal with the realities of her decisions in the A, and ours in the M???? Sounds like she is either still on the fence or just wants the "free pass" I'm not going to give her.

Thought I'd call my W and see if she wanted to have lunch together - MAN WAS I WRONG! I called her cell phone - thinking she was at work - only to find out she was at home. When I asked her why she was at home, she answered "why do you think?" she didn't feel like going to work after this morning's discussion.

Then she hung up with a loving "F**K YOU!"

Am I nuts or is she? Or are we both nuts?? Who knows these days. Sounds like she is mad at ME - but is she really?

A -

100% fog! Give her time and space. Help her through this and continue Plan A. Show her the best you possible and work on yourself.

She needs reassurance that you will not hold this over her head so avoid all talk of the A.

Has she written an NC Letter to OM yet? Is OM married? Have you exposed?

Hang in there and avoid LBing. Telling her your needs are not LBs as long as you position them as what you need to recover.

Heroswife

The more I think about it the more I think it would be a good idea to drop her a note today that just says, I Love You and reassure her you are confident that your M will survive this.

Would it be too cheezy to send some flowers to the house today. Nothing big....just something simple.

Plan A is all about making each other happy, not LBing and working on yourself.

After the F U comment I think flowers would be the last thing she would expect.

Yep, she is deep in the fog. I don't care what the "reason" is for the continued contact with the OM, CONTACT is CONTACT.

She is still addicted to him and every single time they have contact, you are set back in your efforts at recovery.

Plan A, see if you can make this marriage work, but realize that if only one of you wants to work things out, it's not going to happen.

She does not understand that her A is now a part of your lives forever, part of your history. This does not mean that you will hold it over her head or talk about it forever, but she wants to sweep it under the rug and pretend nothing happened. That's very convenient for her, she can live with it easier, she is NOT dealing with the pain that she has caused you. It's still all about her...her feelings...etc. etc.

Plan A is tough, I don't know if I could do it, but you have said that you want to save your marriage. If that's still the case, give it your best shot.

Continued prayers, Ladysing

Heroswife & Ladysing - thanks for the responses.

I am in Plan A (Ws been reading the books also and knows it). Things have been going well, except she doesn't want to have to deal with the realities. She says I just don't get it - I used to be her "everything" and she was totally devoted to me, but that changed after I left. (yes, it was about her then and about her now). She knows about Plan B (six months) and asked me this morning if I was working on that timeline. I responded by saying that I was committed to working on my M, but if she continues contact with OM and thinks we are just going to let this be forgotten, at some point it is not healthy for me to be with her and I will have to think about me and my happiness. Six months is a plan, but if we're really working on M and making progress then Plan B never enters the picture.

Heroswife - OM is married and my attempts to contact & expose to OMW this week have not worked. I may just have to track her down (at work or home) and do it that way. I'd rather not have to get into a possible confrontation with OM by going to his home, but... we'll see. No - my W has not written the NC letter - just can't seem to do it. Hmmm.

I intend to continue to work on my M, and my W is really in the fog. She knows that by boss knows, my chaplain knows and my local priest knows about the A. She's angry that I told them. Her own father even knows, but he asked me not to tell her I told him so she won't shut him out. She has already shut her own mother out after her mother told asked her why she was staying with me, spending the $$ I earned instead of going on her own (this was during last summer when she told her mother she wanted a divorce - has never told her mother she was in an A at the time).

A -

I take it you are in the military and possibly deployed. Am I correct? Since your chaplin already know can you possibly work something out so you can go home to work on your M? I'm not sure if that would be possible in your situation. My H's unit sent a guy home one time because of this situation.

I would highly suggest exposure. Find out where she works and go there. It would be best to do this in person. Have proof in hand...she'll want that.

Who cares about confronting OM if that means you get exposure to his wife it won't matter. Other's might not agree with me with that's how I did it. OW and her H came to my house after I told OWH. I didn't care at that point. I am a christian and was able to rely on my faith to keep me centered. But the Alabama part of me wanted to chew through her throat. You'll have to remain calm and not attack. Just state the facts and let OM and you WW dig their own hole.

Exposure saved me. I waited too long to do it. As soon as my H knew that OWH knew the fog lifted. He was a different man. He is in the military also and OW is his boss. How sad is that?!?!?! Why me Lord, why me?

Hang in there. Plan A till your are blue in the face. If you want to save your M you need to focus on Plan A and not your anger. It's OK to be angry but try not to LB.

Sending you hugs.

Heroswife -
I am in the military and returned from Afghanistan in SEP 2003 after almost a year deployed. My W had the A with a married co-worker, teacher, who is now a pharm sales rep. Four hours after I stepped off the plane that brought me home - my W said she wanted a D. After a few months of investigating - I found the truth. A couple of months later I found MB. I have talked with my chaplain, my local priest,and am seeing an IC. After denying the A for 6 months, my W finally admitted it in March, just before I left on a month long training exercise. Since her admission, she shows signs of still being in the fog. As far as exposure, I am from Alabama too, and Alabama boys would rather fight than explain. I don't need to go to jail because of my Ws A. I'll find a way to contact OMW peacefully, and I do have proof, even my Ws admission.

I think I have done a great job not LBing, but my W gets angry at any mention of the A or how to put US back together.

Hi Apache,
It sounds like you are doing great and I don't think you have lovebusted at all. It really is important that you firmly persist in setting these boundaries or you will live to regret it. Don't back down and don't let her threaten you into giving up your protection. I realize she doesn't want to face unpleasant consequences, but the alternative is much more gruesome for you.

Also, there is really no timeline for Plan A so I would clear that misconception up with her. You are more likely at the end of your Plan A and close to the point where it actually causes more harm than good. Harley recommends going into Plan B when the WS is on the fence - your W is on the fence from the sound of it.

I suspect she is just using that timeline as a license to steal for a few more months and she shouldn't be given that license. Plan A is more often recommended for around 3 months and you have been in Plan A for some time now.

Even so, there is no definite timeline for Plan A. Some might need to do it for 6 months and others for 4 weeks. It just depends on how well you have shown her your good side. Depending on how bad the marriage was before the affair, that might take 2 weeks or 6 months. So, please clear up this misconception with her.

Apache -

I hate to hear that you are having to deal with this during this difficult time of war. It must be very trying on you to keep up a good job at work. I appreciate everything you are doing for our country. I'm sure you hear that all the time. As a military spouse I know first hand the suffering family members go through during long deployments. I know more divorce military couples then I do married ones. The military life is not very accomodating for families.

Are you on any medications? Are you sufferring from depression?

Any chance you and W could take a vacation together.

Your wife is very much in the fog. I honestly think you should find a way quickly to expose to OMW. She needs to know so she can begin working on her M as well. If she knows then you do not have to be the only one watching out for the 2 of them to get together. She'll be an extra pair of eyes for you.

When I exposed OWH was completely blind sided. He had no idea. I did hear that OW had been going to work complaining that her H was yelling at her a awful lot. I thought....she is trying to make people feel sorry for her at work...like she is some angel and he is an ogre.

You should be prepared for OMW to doubt you. So have proof in hand. State only the facts and tell her about MB. Tell her to come here and post. You may even exchange phone numbers so you can compare stories. Just a thought.

What part of Alabama are you from?

Hey Y'all, I have 2 sons in college in Alabama, do I need to worry about them?

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Ladysing58 ]</small>

ML -
I will stick to my boundries and will not be threatened by my W. I am past the "shell shock" point and now feel I have my feet firmly on the ground. I understand there is not a specific timeline for Plan A, but feel I need to give it a little longer since I have been gone 2 out of the last 4 months. I want to know I have done my best Plan A before I move to Plan B.

Heroswife -
Thank you for your support. It has been difficult, but I have the support of my rater and senior rater - they both know what is going on in my personal life and continue to be supportive. BTW, they are both divorced (one remarried) and completely understand the impact the job has on the family. They say they wish they had done what I'm doing instead of just being angry and getting a divorce up front.

I am not on meds (can't fly and be on certain meds), but IC and support of friends is a big help. We are planning a vacation now - boss says I can have 2-4 weeks of leave in June-July.

I'm not sure how OMW will handle it since my W says that OM says this is not his first A and he and his W have already been thru MC once. My W has also been saying that she now thinks OM has NPD (LOL), and it looks like she is starting to see OM may not be the fantasy she built him up to be. She still says OM is like an addiction though.

I have proof: phone bills and many emails from my W to me saying she is in A with OM - and describing OM and his family situation (with names).

I am from a town just outside of Birmingham,AL. I'm a graduate of AUBURN UNIVERSITY (aka THE UNIVERSITY of Alabama).

I wouldn't worry about the sons - I am sure they're having a great time - I loved it! And, if they get a little of that Alabama boy fight in them, as long as they also have a little commom sense, it'll help them as they go thru life.

Hi Apache,

I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective on your "boundaries" discussion with your wife.

I tried to imagine being in her shoes and hearing the things you were saying and I found myself feeling controlled. I know that's not what you meant to do and maybe it wouldn't seem that way to rational people, but perhaps that was how she felt as well.

You bristled when she brought up things she wanted to see change in you because you felt like she wanted you to be more like the OM. I got the impression that you'd rather amputate a leg than do that. I'm sure it's more real for her.

So, to condense what I see...
You start talking about boundaries and what you need from her. She says she'll try. She starts talking about things she needs from you. You get upset because it seems she want you to be more like the OM.

Her take? You want, but you're not willing to give. Hence, the F*** you.

Also, she said she didn't wanted the affair held against her for the rest of your lives. I think that was quite reasonable. You picked a really bad time to educate her on the impact it inevitably has. If my wife had said that to me in this discussion, she'd probably have gotten a hearty FU and a goodbye to boot.

It's not that you weren't right. But she perceived that would always try to control her with your righteousness. Bad timing on your part.

Please avoid discussion elements that are intended to draw contrast between the morality of your decisions. Don't ever let it descend into "You should do what I say because I'm right and your wrong" or you'll end up being right, but ALONE.

JMHO, Low

<small>[ May 01, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

WAR EAGLE APACHE!
I'm proud to have a big AU MOM sticker on my car!

Low - I appreciate your perspective. The discussion we had came out of my W saying that she couldn't see any way out of our current situation. She knows and I know that HOPE is not a PLAN, so we must have some sort of plan. That plan includes boundries and meeting needs. Since she said she could see any PLAN, I offered what was right in front of us. The MB plan. I know that I cannot control her, but I can set my boundries and express my needs while trying to get the same from her.

I did not react or get upset at all to her statement about the OM and how I used to be that way. (I come to MB to vent - not my W). I am very open to changes and meeting her needs, but my opinion is that those things are there. She has pushed me away for over six months and has not tried to see the real me. All I can do is continue to show her, but I cannot chase her down and tackle her in order to show her. These judgements from her may be real to her, but she is also behaving in a way that reinforces her justification for the A. She is chracterizing me in a certain way, but never looking around to see if it's true - by doing that she never has to revalidate opinions created in order to jusify the A.

About the timing - the timing of this whole thing sux. My W has always been very driven by what others think. She bases many of her decisions on what others think. If she is wrong - she doesn't want to talk or hear about it. If others are wrong - she's the first to let them know, and wants to talk about it. Of course she thinks this will be held over her head for the rest of her life - she would hold it over me in my opinion. The truth is I won't. Why would I want to be married and hold it over her forever - I'm trying to work on a healthy marriage and holding it over her head doesn't create that.

THE BOTTOM LINE: My W never wants to appear to be wrong, or to have made a bad decision. She would rather cut off a limb instead of being wrong. That's why she has cut her mother off from communication. I'd rather we each belly-up and admit where we have made bad decisions, find out why, come up with a plan to improve and then work on it. My W would rather just move on and forget things ever happened, and just go back to the way things were. She has always been this way with the people who are close to her. That's not gonna work here.

My W is showing signs of coming back to her old self. Saturday, while we were out shopping st the mall she says to me - I'm glad I'm married to you! And we had a great day to boot.

Then Sunday, she had a bad day all day. She just wanted to lay around the house and sulk. She said she was angry and frustrated with everybody. She said she cannot believe this is her life - it's just too "Jerry Springer". I made lunch, cleaned up the house and sat and watched TV with her in the afternoon. I made sure she had her laying around time and just was there with her. Sometimes she wanted to be held and sometimes wanted to be alone - I let her do all of that - and it didn't really bother me.

I'm not trying to tell her how to live, but am offering a course of action since she really does not have one - other than not dealing with us. I figure I'll lay off the MB talk for a while and just continue to plan A and show her who I really am - since she's forgotten. Remember, she's had 16 months (while I was deployed plus the time before I found out about the A) to villainize me to justify the A.

apache - I tend to agree with low.

When I read your description of your conversation with your wife, it came across to me as a bit demanding. If so, I can understand her reaction - typical of a cornered animal.

You should not "demand" anything. You should not be pushy.

Simply stated, you cannot make her do anything. At most, you can lure her back.

That said, her part was filled with fog talk.

I suggest you apologize to her for being too demanding. Try to play off her statements of maybe there's hope afterall. "I'm not perfect and my overbearing attitude, in retrospect, was not constructive. Your reactions were understandable. But I recognize this and realize it's one of the things I need to permanently fix. It's one more lesson learned."

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not trying to tell her how to live, but am offering a course of action since she really does not have one - other than not dealing with us. I figure I'll lay off the MB talk for a while and just continue to plan A and show her who I really am - since she's forgotten. Remember, she's had 16 months (while I was deployed plus the time before I found out about the A) to villainize me to justify the A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a good plan. You sound like a very action oriented person. Must drive you nuts to sit and wait for her to come back to you.

When was the last time you watched "Dances With Wolves"? Remember Two-Socks?

Low

Low-

DWW is one of my favorite movies. Yes, I do remember Two Socks - the wolf who over time came to trust DWW.

I get it, but Two Socks also made efforts to gain trust.