I have read so much about affairs after my H had one. Most things that I read say they are not true love and don't work in the long run. I know that my H is in the FOG, but he has me starting to believe that he loves her. She behaved a lot like a second wife. (Granted life's real stresses were removed. Not that he sees that)Could what they have be real and could he really be better off there without me and our daughter? H is still with me, but having difficulty with NC.

From what I've read the odds are extremely low that marriage results from adultery - only 3-5%. And of those rare marriages, something like 75% end in divorce. But it does seem like I know of a LOT of marriages that resulted from adultery... maybe the numbers are changing? Or maybe it's just because there are so many affairs that end before anyone finds out?

Whether or not your husband currently feels 'in love' with the other woman, they will eventually lose that new love chemistry. EVERYONE DOES. And then it will be the same challenge every couple eventually faces: one or both have to learn how to bring the spark back. But since neither person entering an affair really values committment, honesty, working at a relationship... and since they both are selfish, find it easy to justify to themselves to do whatever they 'feel' like regardless of the suffering it will cause others, and can't count on each other to be honest and loyal... It's just a matter of time until one or both chooses to stray again instead of to stay and work on a lasting relationship.

And most importantly, if your wayward spouse leaves you for an adulterer, it's their loss - not yours. You can offer understanding, forgiveness, reconciliation... for a while... But it's their decision.

I sometimes worry too about the 'what if's'...
What if he really does love her and never comes back to me? Well, then she will be the one who will have to deal with the issues from his childhood, his anger problem, his dishonesty, his serial adultery, and his hateful relatives - not me. I will be free to remarry somebody with fewer problems and more maturity. And because I really did try to work things out and have stood by him for over two years now I will have no regrets or shame.

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

CD,
There is no way in hell that an affair is true love.

All affairs are based on lies, and deceit. How can something started in lies, be so wonderful ?

Let's face it, if he REALLY loved her...there would be no question in his mind, he'd be with her RIGHT now...and HE KNOWS IT.

Let him get through his withdrawal, be supportive, but don't let it get you down. He will wallow in this a bit longer. Make sure he sticks strictly to NC...and he'll be OVER OW soon enough.

Hi coolduck,

It's my understanding from what I have read that affairs involve the first stage of love,infatuation.This is the time that everything seems perfect,the WS is just getting to know the OP(vice versa) and they are both feeding the A with all the attention,positive feedback,time,energy,discussion,dinners,etc that they should be giving their S.

It's hurtful to think that our loved ones could "fall" for another but it doesn't just HAPPEN.It has to be nurtured and one or both parties are usual very adept at meeting other's needs(conversation,affection,admiration,etc) when there is a goal or agenda.

Think of all the dates you have had.You are always on your best behavior,look your best,talk your best,listen extra carefully,seem interested,etc,etc.When we marry,all that drama and showtime is less important when we come to believe that the one we are with doesn't expect it anymore or we are more relaxed and feel safe and secure.

Eventually,life intervenes and it places a huge demand on both the wife and husband.It's just not possible to be Superman and Wonderwoman all the time.This is what A's brew...fantasy.So in a sense,it's not true LONG LASTING love but again,infatuation.In most cases anyway.I have read that 3-5% of A's end in marriage and of those 75% fail.80% of those who divorced said they regret that decision.A very big gamble to take on someone that a WS only knows weeks or months,if that.

O

I want to believe so much that he couldn't truely love her, but the fogese gets in the way so much. How can I make him see these things without sounding like I am so against her and trying to bring him back to me? She has really played him with so much that she has said and done and he can't see it. She knew all of his needs and because it started as a work/friendship, she knew everything I was and wasn't doing. So essentially, she knew how to get him. Everything she did for him were the things I knew he was unhappy about and either to stupid or to stubborn to fix before the A. Things he says she did for him are all the basic things you do to get someone in the beginning--the dating thing someone mentioned. He just doesn't see it. We were the same way in the beginning. We have been together 13 years and married 6 in June. I am so ready to quit and let her have him. He has never given me a true chance to try to be those things to him again.

Affairs are very shallow fantasies. I asked my WH if he doesn't worry that OW has had 2 affairs before. He said that they don't talk about things like that.

She also says the most important thing in the world for her is her daughter. She has completely abandoned her daughter to live with my WH. She spends about an hour a week with daughter. I asked him if she cares so much, why doesn't she spend time with her little girl. WH said she does spend lots of time with her.

After that I don't try to reason with him. It is like trying to reason with a rock.

Coolduck, boy how I can relate. OW was my best friend and use to gather info from me about H and tell me what a fool I was to stay with him when he was never home, not a good father etc etc. Then she would go to work and tell H how wonderful he was and how I didn't deserve him. What also gets me is he known her for 20 years and yet he fell "in love" with her in a matter of weeks. yada yada yada its the same old thing. Its not about her although it took me forever to get that, its about him and his issues. And what also took me along time to get was not to say everything you know is wrong with her. just shut your mouth and don't say a word. People use to tell me this over and over but I wanted to justify and since I had so much ammo from years of friendship boy do I blow. Now I zip my lip and even the other day OW EX told me some juicy gossip about OW and stuff she's doing and after I told H about OW EX he was waiting for the neg stuff and I just walked away. To tell the truth it was empowering not to have to try to prove it to him. My H still thinks like she is an innocent party and I'm tired of trying to persuade otherwise.
km4

My WS fell "in love" in 3 days. Yeah, you really know someone that quick. She's wacko but I guess he likes that kind of thing. He's with her now, they moved in together within 6 weeks of knowing each other. She's married, has kids and is a drug addict. She's also pregnant with his child, or so she says, I have doubts it's his but he's too far into the fog to see her faults. I don't really believe for one second he truly loves her. I think he's trying to convince himself he does because otherwise he looks like a fool. Infatuation yes, love no way. My God she's nasty, uses threats, violence, fake suicide attempts, and her kids to try and keep him. Now there's love for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sex doesn't mean love.
I found out hard way from OM.
He used me to get what he wanted, I gave it to him-because I thought HE loved me!
Wrong!
He lied & I lied too.
Love is confused with Lust...
Much different...
I was in Lust with him...
I thought it was love...
that is why withdrawal is hell.
I hate him for everything he put me through-
I pray to God for strength to get past this...
Love-never-with OP
I LOVE my H. & he loves me...
he has stood by me...
that is unconditional LOVE!

Your H doesn't really know her, so he isn't in love with her.

Just compare regular "dating" when single people are trolling for a mate with the A. They are radically different.

When you date someone, you get to know them, you go to all kinds of different places, and you introduce them to your family and your friend. You see the other person in a lot of different situations and you get a lot of feedback about the person you are dating from people you trust. From that experience, you decide whether "he/she is the one."

Compare that to the A--basically, WS and OW are locked away in a hotel room. WS and OW don't do all of those things to really know each other. When you have an A, you really only do 3 things--f***, makes plans for f***ing, and talk about how "right" you are for each other.

I was in an A for two years--we ate out together twice, and went to 2 movies. She never met any of my friends or family, and I only met a couple of hers.

Coolduck,
I am in the same spot you are. It seems impossible to get through to WS right now. I have no clue what to do. H wants to stay here, but wants to see OW too. What do they take us for? My H's A started at work also. So OW could talk and listen about all his job related stress. I am really no help but my prayers are with you that NC will be established soon. I have no hope of that happening soon for me.

I'm speaking from my experience only.
Please do not compare yours to mine as they all are different...they just have the same story line.

My H WAS in love with his OW. I can admit that now.
His A started at the work place also.

Now....I may get flamed...but I'm used to it.

Some say...how can an A last....started on lies and deceit. Well....my marriage did not start with lies and deceit from my H and myself...and his A didn't with him and the OW.....the lies and the deciet were all directed at me....so....they started off honestly with each other.
They both new each other was married....they were both extremely unhappy unhappy in their marriages....they had ALOT in common...more than my H and I had in common at the time. They spend more time together at work than my H spent with me.

In the course of 7 months....my H fell in love with the OW. It wasn't a fantasy....it was real. They went everywhere together....even hung out with my sister.....and some other members of my family.

How do I know......because through out this whole thing.....I am the one my H talked to about it....whether he was at home with me....or we were seperated. I put myself in that position. I decided that if I couldn't have him as a husband...I could at least have him as a friend. It was hard too at first.

So....if my H was in love with the OW why didn't it work out? Good question.

Though he loved her....he didn't trust her. Funny huh? It also didn't help that she tried to keep her kids from her then X husband....the one she divorced to be with my H...they have since remarried.

When his A ended and he started talking about getting to know each other again.....because at this time we were people each of us didn't know anymore I had serious doubts of it ever working out knowing that he had loved her.

We did get to know each other....and we found out that we like the new people we were....and we found our feelings for each other again. Yes....I had to find mine too.

So see....EVEN IF the WS falls in love with the OP...which DOES happen sometimes.....it can still work out for the best.

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

CD

I can so relate to how you feel. My WH's fog talk is at times so convincing I start to believe it too.

My FIL is married to his OW and has been for over 15 years. I guess they fall into that small precent. However, do I believe they belong together and have some special "soulmate" love?ABSOULETLY NOT Their relationship is more like roomates and all his kids question his fidelity to her. I think he realized that the grass is not greener and is willing to stay where he is finacially stable.

My WH can not view his position rationally. His A with OW is different and special. I don't see his fog clearing anytime soon. Hope your WH can get through his fog and establish NC.

This thread will give you insight into the nature of love eg. real/true love, ego boundaries, romantic love and feelings of love.

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

My H currently moved out and is living with OW due to an affair, he has been in and out of our house now 6 times. I met him yesterday briefly and his comment was "He doesn't know what he wants or what will make him happy" he still appears to be undecided even about her and is asking me not to proceed with an absolute divorce., BUT- I have sent him much info from this site and asked he read books, because he is suffering from an addiction but of c he doesn't see it that way.

I can not go on allowing him to move in and out on his family and teenage sons., my emotions are going crazy., I either need him in my life in order to fix this problem together, or he just needs to cut the ties and move forward good bad or indifferent.

I am filing for divorce and moving forward at least I am trying to do this. I will keep you all posted.

Hang in there, if your husband is still at home with you, keep him there hang onto him and love him don't ever let him go., maybe you two can make it work together.

In my WH's case, it was his high school girlfriend. She contacted him to "apologize" for the things that happened 25 and 20 years ago and one thing led to another. This A really happened because this woman (whom has been married twice already) was looking for my H to "save" her from her "mentally abusive" husband (in reading Why Women Leave Men I'm guessing it's not really "abuse"). I think she believed he was a "sure" thing for her.

OW's track record:
*25 years ago - my H and she end 3 year high school relationship - mutual decision within the last year leaves my "Christian" H with lifetime baggage and connection to her
*Within 3 years of this she marries another guy and has a child
*Two years later(4 years before we met) she came to my H to be "saved" when she was unhappy in her first marriage, but he was in college and she "wanted him to finish". I don't buy that either - let's be honest he couldn't support her or her child.
*Less than two years later, her divorce is final from her "low-life" husband, she marries another man she knew, and already has a child with her second husband. She choose the second husband because he could take care of her.
*Fall of 2003 - she contacts my H with apology and stupid him responds (EA begins, 2 PA follow) - Jan. I discover it - NC since

She's jumped from one relationship and right into another all her life - she doesn't plan to be without a man - no matter who she needs to use, hurt, or destoy. She has claimed to my H she was going to leave her husband regardless of what happened between my H and her. Not going to happen! (She'll find someone else to marry first)

Is this history love? No. My H has carried some heavy duty baggage about their relationship for 25 years and she knew it. She knew exactly what to say and do to make him feel guilty, responsible, young, etc. and since we were struggling, he fell for it.
My one wish is for him to see her for what she really is - a user - with him being the person she uses when all else fails. I'd love for him to find out she's had other As or that she's found someone else. Anything to discredit her in my H's eyes.

As are NOT love, rather a mixture of situations:
Sex
Excitement of getting "away with it"
Meeting unmet needs
Feeling young and irresponsible
And as I've shown - even guilt

WS's grow up and get over it - open your eyes and see reality NOW - if you don't some day it may very well come back and bite you in the @$$ - then its too late! Sorry for the bluntness, but I'm feeling a little agressive today.

Yeah, OW in my situation wanted a father for her kids. She has no morals and values! Got pregnant on purpose to keep him because she knew he wanted a child. How sick. She screws around every chance she gets but for some resason WS can't or won't believe it. She was supposed to get divorced but never went for her final hearing. But she loves WS so much. I think he is in love with an illusion. Yeah, 3 days of wild sex and you are so in love. Not! My God he doesn't even know when her birthday is and they've been together 16 months now. She loves money and he loves sex and the idea of being a father. But love each other. Yeah, the way a dog loves a fire hydrant.

I believe my WH does care for her, the OW and her H were friends of ours. Also I believe he mistaken lust for love.

I'm just waiting for day, she really shows her true colors. She schemed, lied and malipuated my H and he is aware of all the games she played,(including trying to get pregnant) but still remains with her.

He knows I'm loyal and that deep down he could never completely trust her. So I'm just waiting for the day she slips up, right now she can't do any wrong in his eyes and I can't change the situation; just myself.

So right now I keep my conversations short and sweet with my WS and just make sure my attitude is always perfect. I know her, she is controlling and my husband hates to be controlled, so sooner or later the axe will fall. One things I always have and probably will do again if(when) we get back together is give my H space and freedom. I will just keep an open eye this time and go with my gut instinct about situations.

Plus, I'm hoping all the statistics on affairs are true. That they are doomed. I don't know how you can build a relationship on lies and hurting other people.

Personally, I have never tried to convince myself, or my H, that what he felt for OW was anything less than real love.

What's the point, really?!

Do we want to make our WS feel stupid? Do we want to convince them that they are wrong? Do we want to enforce that no one else could love them as much as we love them? Do we want to deny their feelings?

Or, do we want to appease ourselves? Do we want to believe that it's not possible for our spouses to have found love outside of our marriages?

What exactly do we FEAR (within ourselves) if we do indeed acknowlege that the affair LOVE may have been REAL?

I've said the following to my H and I've posted it before on this forum (2 years or so ago...):

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LOVE. LOVE IS A BEAUTIFUL THING...

WHAT IS/WAS WRONG WAS THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THE LOVE WAS ALLOWED TO FLOURISH.

What is/was wrong was the failure to hold true to a previous promise.

Now, that being said, I do NOT for a minute believe that any breathing human being has ever truly LOVED my H more than I have loved him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . However, I acknowledge that I failed miserably (at one time!) in demonstrating to my husband the depth of my love in a "language" he acknowledged and understood.

I have learned that each individual expresses and acknowledges LOVE in different ways. I believe it is vitally IMPORTANT for the suvival of ALL MARRIAGES that each marriage partner is able to recognize and speak their partners specific "love language".

Please, I implore you, read the book The Five Love Languages . It may just SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.

And, IMHO, reading the book is a LOT more important than debating whether or not affair love is "real" love.

Hugs, ~Marie

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</small>

Are affairs real love? Well. . . I am ashamed to admit it but I was the OW 17 years ago. And now, I am the wife with a husband having the affair. (Same man)

So we have to be the small percentage that did make it . .. well, at least for 17 years. And I think that does say real love is possible.

Oddly enough I hope the percentages are right and that the chance is against it that his affair presently will not last.

As I hope that your husbands affair will not either.

Talk about your past coming back to haunt you.
This is one of those things that has me still wondering if I got my just rewards.
In looking at my husbands first marriage, I saw great pain and suffering on both their parts. They were mentally and somewhat physically abusive to each other. It was an explosive relationship. I haven't a doubt that part of my appeal as the OW was I made no demands, and I had all the time in the world to be available to him.

Coolduck - yes, there is a chance it is true love. But the percentages say differently. Do whatever it takes to save your marriage, if you want it. I don't know if it correct to think this way. I am by no way a pro at dealing with A's (as a wife) as I just found out 2 weeks ago about the OW.
But I have chosen to take the high road. I have emphasized the qualities that I know he loves in me. I have even gone as far as to tell him that I want nothing more than him to be happy BUT in my gut he is making a huge mistake in thinking that they have a future.
My husband trusts me totally. It is unwaivering and he has said so recently. And so I asked him to take that trust and truly hear me when I say he is not thinking clearly and that he is headed for trouble if he decides he would have a better life with her.
I know he heard me . . . yet it conflicts with his feelings of love for her.

CoolDuck - go with what you know and not what you imagine (or what he imagines). You know you love and want your husband then you spend your time thinking about that.
Second guessing can be good in some instances to prepare yourself but face it A's come with high emotion. You can't waste your time on what if's. Love your husband for his weakness's and for his strengths. And that takes fortitude and you can't fight all the demons so stay focused on the positive. Hopefully you've got it in you and just have found yourself in a low spot.