This is something I have tried to explain to WS but he does not seem to get it...every time a new development occured...for example after WS was caught at OW's place and son called him asking him where he was that evening...WS lied to him...this puts another nail in the coffin for respectibility for WS from his son...I have tried to explain to WS that his actions affect how our son perceives his father at this time...everytime a lie is told...everytime he lets us down once again this has to effect how we percieve WS but he just does not seem to get it..I guess it is easier to blame someone else than taking ownernship and accountability of one's actions

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

My WS certainly has made that accusation - falsely of course. He and OW are doing a d*mn good job at causing the kids to be disgusted without my help LOL.

Here's something my WH AND OW tried once (she was on speaker phone with him and voicing her demands too):

Middle daughter was on phone to WH, asking him if we could use his car to go to out-of-state skating competition that she and younger sister were competing in. He had promised we could (while broke up with OW) but then said we couldn't (after going back to OW). It was just a couple days before the trip so we needed to know in time to make other plans. I heard daughter saying to WH: "Do you PROMISE? You're not going to change your mind again? Because I need to know now if I have to ask somebody else for a ride." WH promised daughter that we could use the car, she hung up phone, and hopped into the shower.

Not even 5 minutes later WH & OW called me on speaker phone, saying they would not let us use the car for the trip unless I met their condition! AND they said if I told daughter they called and demanded a condition then I would be hurting her and trying to turn her against them! Their condition: that I call the police station and tell them that WH had never threatened to kill me - that it was just a lie I made up. (Him becoming physically abusive and threatening to kill me is why we separated and I got a restraining order two years ago. Over the past two years he had threatened me a few more times but I didn't always call the police about it. I never had him arrested...)

OW's ex-BF is a police officer. OW and ex-BF had a child out of wedlock. Maybe the ex-BF was objecting to my WH being around his daughter, because of WH having anger/violence problem and (now expired) restraining order?

Anyway, I told WH & OW that I would not lie to my daughter. She would have to be told SOMETHING about why they wouldn't let us use the car, because I was NOT going to cave to their demand. I also said since both WH and OW were on the speaker phone together they could no longer look at each other and pretend to each other that they 'cared about' my daughters! I also told OW that since she was listening, he couldn't make his usual demand - to see me behind her back! Plus I pointed to OW that this sort of thing (broken promises) were the real reasons daughters sometimes refuse to see their father - not because I won't allow them to.

As soon as my daughter got out of the shower I told her and she called her father back. She was on the phone sobbing: "How could you be so cold-hearted?"

THAT is one of the examples of what my WH and his family point to as my supposedly 'turning the kids against him'... they say the kids 'know too much'... Never mind that there's plenty my WH has said and done right in fornt of his kids... Never mind that there's plenty the kids haven't seen or heard and I will never tell them... I guess my WH and the OW actually expected me to cave to their demands or to at least make up some excuse to cover for why they wouldn't let us use the car? (If the kids were a lot younger I would be tempted to cover more to protect their feelings.)

Another time WH promised the same daughter that he would go to counseling. She was worried about him seeming to have different personalities (he would make promises but then change when fog would take back over after breaking no contact with OW). His bizarre behavior actually unnerved her enough that she told her father she would only continue visitation with him if he went to counseling! Well, after promising her that he would go to counseling, he promptly told me that he wasn't really going to go, but didn't want me to tell her! I said I couldn't condone him lying to his own daughter and should not be expected to keep secrets for him. She felt it was important enough to give him some sort of ultimatum. It wasn't his right to decide for her whether she would continue to have visitation with him (separation agreement states visitation is 'at daughters' disgression'). I told her and he accused me of 'trying to turn her against' him...

Sorry to ramble on. Just want to assure you that WS's (& OP's) typically make that accusation against the BS. And unfortunately those who 'support' their adultery will believe it and give them sympathy over your supposed 'vindictiveness'. My MIL is the worst one for accusing me of doing this. She's the biggest hypocrite too since she's the one who divorced my WH's biological father (I found out it was because she was having an affair), remarried, moved with new husband to another state, and never allowed her children to have any contact with their father again period! I guess she just pretended he never existed! To this day she will not even tell her now grown children WHY she even divorced and WHY they never got to see their father again! Yet she thinks nothing of calling me and chewing me out for 'poisoning' my children against my WH.

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

My H constanly accused me of trying to turn our daughters against him.

Our oldest daughter would ask him where he was if she was trying to get ahold of him and couldn't and he would tell her that it wasn't her business and that she had no right to question his whereabouts or actions. She was 10 at the time...and she would say...well....then you don't have a right to know that I've been doing, but I guess you don't want to know anyway since you don't seem to have the time to turn on your cell phone so I can call you whenever I need to. I guess some other things are more important huh?

Our middle daughter would completely ignore him when he would come to visit....and her and the oldest would be ready to come home within 2 hours of going for their weekend with him.

Our youngest however has always been a daddies girl. Every night for 3 months she would go to her room and look out the window and cry and ask me to bring her her daddy back. When I told him about this....he got a cell phone so he could be reached at all time.....still didn't work...because of course...if the caller id came up with my name and he was with the OW....she would get upset. Like it's going to come up with my kids names when they called. Give me a break...lol

I think that ALOT of the times the WS and the OP forget that if children are involved...the BS is ALWAYS going to be in picture whether they want them to be or not.

Our oldest daughter is getting better.....but she still has issues with her dad.
For one...she doesn't respect him like she used to...and another....my H CANNOT have a conversation with her about lying because she laughs at him and says....."Where do you think I learned how to lie?"

Kids say the darndest things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

New Outlook, (nice handle)

Yes, my WW has accused me of doing just that as well. She is having major problems with our oldest daughter these days. It does seem to stem from a lack of respect my daughter has for her mother right now. And yes, it all comes directly from my WW A.

Unfortunately, my daughter does "know" things about what my wife did. It was not done intentionally by Either of us. However, at the beginning of all this we did have some real knock down drag out (verbal) confrontations. Although we did send the kids into other rooms, its not hard to Hear what is being shouted at each other from only one room away. And yes, also to my shame there were times that I would bring up things in front of our children, just to try and hurt my wife. (Less factual things...more like how much of a lying %*#@! she was) It was not meant to hurt my children or even turn them on her, it was simply to try and make her feel even a fraction of the pain and suffering I was experiencing. I guess I used our children because nothing else seemed to faze her in the least. Of course, it was totally wrong and totally out of line ........and I have made that connection and made sure to stop that behavior.

But at least for our oldest I guess the seeds were already planted.
It hurts to hear my daughter ask questions like "Did mommy do such & such with her Boyfriend?" I mean my daughter is almost 9 and she understands that married Mommies are NOT supposed to have boyfriends. Its sad,, because she is not emotionally mature enough to make sense of all this. So there has been much friction between the 2 of them since this all came out (and there never was before).

My wife has (in the past) accused me of not wanting our children to respect her, and thereby NEVER let her get beyond her mistakes. I guess in some ways I am guilty of doing that.

Its still my opinion that she is simply reaping what she has sown. She got away with a whole lot for a long, long time. At that time there were NO consequences. Well now she is finally having to face some. And some of the consequences are things she Never even considered. Like problems with our daughter. OOh what a tangled web we weave!

With that said, I do acknowledge that I have contributed to the problem (just as I contributed to the conditions that lead to her A). Not my fault or my choice, but I do bear some of the responsibility. I've made more than my share of mistakes on this road we call recovery.

However, with that said, My WW needs to take ownership in what she has done and ALL the consequences that come with the fallout. She is the one who made her own choices (not me and not our kids). She is the one that has destroyed her own integrity. She willingly gave up being trustworthy. (Its tough to try and call your children on lying about something, when they know how much of a liar you are). She needs to stop blaming me or anyone else and grow up and accept the responsibility of her actions.

Bottom line is she had the A. She created the conditions and the environment for everything that came after to take place. (If no A, then no yelling, problems ect,.). She is the one that messed up her relationship with our daughter (s). Just like with our Martial relationship, she has to realize that she has a lot of work to do to fix her relationship with our daughter. In short, she made the mess. Now she has to do all the hard work to clean it up. IT can be fixed. She just has to be willing to stop blaming and do it. I do believe she can come back from all this. She just needs to stop feeling sorry for herself, get a plan and then get her head back in the game.

(Does anyone elses posts always seem to become longer then they intended?)

Here's one that will break your heart.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ..I have two beautiful granddaughters who adore both grandparents...they are young 4 and 7..they are pretty smart little girls and I know they sense that something is going on...I decided last weekend life goes on and since WS has left they have begged to come to the house for a sleepover...WS and I used to have them every second weekend..he would make them breakfast and play games with them in the bed in the mornings..after seeing the episode on Dr. Phil yesterday and the mother's statement about not wanting her daughters to follow her example of accepting the A's Marty has commited..I too am thinking about my beautiful grandchildren...I have to step up to the plate and show by example that what their grandfather is doing is not right...I cannot accept his behavior any longer...that is why I have to make some tough decisons next week...I posted this on Plan B thread.."

"Last night was very difficult..was first sleep over with grandchildren without WS...after I got them tucked into bed they asked me why I was alone and where was WS.. I told him he would not be coming home tonight...they both started sobbing stating they wanted WS... they begged me to call him and tell him to come home they wanted to talk to him...they are 4 and 7...I told them I did not know his number but they knew I did..I knew WS would be with OW and would not pick up so called cell number just to appease them...and he had his phone turned off...I told them he was not there... I just got them settled down when Ws called...I let the 4 year old answer..she was so excited...she asked WS his phone number at his place and he told her and she stated I am going to tell Mammy (me)..so she knows what the number is now and she can call you ...she told WS they were crying because they wanted him to come home and that Mammy had cried too...he told her to tell Mammy not to cry...it just about broke my heart to listen to this 4 year old say such intelligent things to WS...she kept repeating the number while talking to him so she would not forget..(I knew the number but just tried to appease them at first by telling them I did not know it)...again so heartbreaking...just wonder what went through WS's head during this conversation...