</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ChristyV:
<strong>His two, big fat loser friends</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the only ones I didn't recall.

I'm sure they're a lot of help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hi Christy,

How are you doing today. What's the status on your disclosure activity? Any decisions made?

I too work for a extremely large company [Intel], and the values you mentioned are similar to ours. Although, I don't know if they take a hands-off approach to affairs in the work place.

I can imagine if it was a manager/subbordinate inter-personal situtation, that legal implications would require them to take action of some sort.

You mentioned that your husband trained this female [OW], is she his subbordinate or direct report?

Jo

BTW: We too, like many, are off-shoring our work to places such as India, Korea, China, etc. They don't send us there unless it's a minimum of 3 mos (ROI), so I can see potential for this kind of thing happening.

WAT what I'm saying is if you do the exposure get it done in one week instead of stringing it along. I'm not sure if this is right or not but it just seems like the smart way to do exposure.

Tin - I understand. Of course, for Christy this is a moot point.

In general, an argument can be made that exposure (in a continuing affair after d-day) ought to be graduated with the most "effective" being done right away - OP's spouse and WS's family. Frequently, this is all that's needed to cause the affairees to bail out and further exposure is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive.

If we knew ahead of time that the "close in" exposure wouldn't be effective, then the all at once approach would be preferred for the reasons you state - get the single LB over with.

WAT

C -

How's it going today? I just read this thread and thought I'd check in on you.

I can see where you would have concern about exposure. I also see WAT's POV on the long distance relationship not having legs. I'd take into account the chances of him going back over there for training. If you can't say for sure that this will not ever happen I would expose immediately. Do not wait, do not pass go, do not collect $200.


I sensed your confusion and frustration and I've been there so I thought I'd check in with you.

Christy,

Although my situation was much different from yours, I also struggled with exposure so thought I'd share my experience in case it helps.

My first exposure was to WH's family: sister, brother, and mother. All three sided with me - they called a family meeting and yelled at, swore at, and cried at my WH in an effort to get him to give up the OW. On that day, my WH promised to work on the M, but starting the very next day, he basically moved in with the OW - once there was full exposure, what was the point of hiding it anymore? If anything he was more comfortable than before!

My H also had some "big fat loser friends" (nice description!) who I did not bother to expose to, and he is self-employed so that was not an avenue of exposure open to me. However there was one important group I did NOT expose to, mainly because I knew that exposing to this group would be, in his eyes, unforgivable - his church and bible study group. His reputation among this group was VERY important to him. He was an active member in this community and in fact, his bible study group was in the midst of organizing a major fundraising event to benefit my H's mother (who is uninsured and has cancer) around the time I started Plan B.

Penny strongly recommended full exposure to this group, and I was fully prepared to do it if all other efforts (ie, Plan B) failed to force and end to the A, but it was my very last resort option.

In the end, my H ended the A shortly after I started Plan B, and when he did end it, he turned very strongly to the church for support in renewing his faith and embarking on a "new life." In addition to ending contact with the OW, he also ended contact with all of his big fat loser friends and put a great effort into strengthening his friendships with members of his bible group. So, in retrospect, I am very thankful that I didn't have to expose to this group. I had every intention to fully expose if all else failed, but I honestly don't know if we would be in the same place in recovery right now if I had exposed to this group because (1) I don't know if he could have forgiven me, and (2)it would have been much more difficult for him to turn to this group for support and friendship if they knew about the A.

I did expose to whoever I could in the OW's life (she was single), and I think that was effective in helping to end the A - I know she got pressure to end it. So I do believe exposure helps end the A. I know there are stories out there where WS's have forgiven exposure even when exposing seemed unforgivable at the time, but I'm glad I didn't have to test whether that would have been true for us.

I don't have any advice for you - I think if I were in your place I would consider exposure to your H's supervisors, but because the stakes seem so very high, I would only do it as a last resort. I don't know enough about your story to know whether you are at that point yet.

pearl - very glad to hear things worked out for you.

But........

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pearl:
<strong>So, in retrospect, I am very thankful that I didn't have to expose to this group. I had every intention to fully expose if all else failed, but I honestly don't know if we would be in the same place in recovery right now if I had exposed to this group because (1) I don't know if he could have forgiven me, and (2)it would have been much more difficult for him to turn to this group for support and friendship if they knew about the A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OR, (3) exposure to this group would have brought an end to the affair SO MUCH SOONER!!

Hmmmmmmmmm?

Please help me understand your logic so that I can learn some more.

You're afraid that exposure to this group would have prevented him from forgiving you and he would not have been able to go to them for support? This group was so important to him? A bible study group that, supposedly, espouses forgiveness and support?

What am I missing? Please, I'd like to understand.

WAT

I have to side with WAT on this one.

The very first person I called when I assumed there was an A going on was my pastor and his wife. They were our best friends. I needed their support.

My H met with the pastor and told him he was not in love with me anymore but that there was no A. We all knew that was not true.

So after D-Day we again turned to them for support. They held our hands...we immediately started a weekly session with them to read HN/HN and that helped us more then MC. This was way before I found MB. I also exposed to my H's father as soon as I had the email in hand as proof of the A. My H's father was the one that told my H I had proof. I believe he called him and said "cats out of the bag son. go home to your wife you have some answers she needs. you fix this or you're dead to me." Harsh I know. It almost killed my H to hear those words. That was the first time he said he would rather die then go through this.

Bottom line is these are the people that should stand by you in your time of need. If you can't rely on this group to give forgiveness and support then what's the purpose? These people should know. If you didn't have to expose to them I think your H should expose now. Let them know what you need from them.

WAT you hit the nail on the head.

first let me say christy i am so sorry for what you are having to continually go through and wish i had the words to say. i'm just now reading this thread so i guess it's my time to add my 2 cents for what it's worth.

i struggled a lot w/this at first (after i found MB). partly because i really didn't know if my IL's knew, my H has 2 brothers not married, and 4 sisters who are married. the OW in my case is only 20yrs old, single, never been married as far as i know, no kids, and still lives at home. i didn't think her parents knew and boy was i wrong when i went to her house. basically her parents support my H and their daughter, until this past week i still didn't know how much all of my H's family knew. now i know that they all know have since february and that they are basically supportive of him, even if through their inaction, and per my H they are glad that he is finally happy.

my FIL to this day has never allowed me and my H to sleep in the same room because we were not married in the catholic church. i'm not saying that he treated me any different, he didn't, very much the opposite, introduced me as his son's wife, loved and cared for me, except when it came to the sleeping in the same room in his house. my H said that his father doesn't think what he is doing is appropriate or the right way to handle things. but what is he saying to my H? maybe he is on his case, but if that was the case then why doesn't he call me and offer support? i firmly believe this is because we do not have any kids and then additionally because he has only considered us legally married from day one.

my H is a full-time student and works at a seafood restauraunt which employees mostly parolees and drug users. as far as his friends, i honestly don't even know any of them just because the way our relationship has been since he got out of the military. but from what my H has indicated to me is that they (his friends) didn't knowo why he was still w/me (this has been said over the past couple of years) and now say that he shouldn't even talk or see me. exposing to his work and friends would absolutely do nothing and they already know.

in my first sessions w/SH we talked about the exposure thing and have kind of laid off that as of late. simply because if the idea about exposing is to end the lie of an A and expose to people who would have an influence then tat's a moot point in my case. SH did say that if it came from anyone but me it was okay but he felt that given our history, etc. that i couldn't be the one to expose. i'm still kind of thinking of more of the exposure thing on the side of the OW. her family, friends, work, etc. in fact i posted on this under this forum called "psychological warfare against the OW" you would probably have to go a few pages back to find it. i'm sure she probably comes off as very innocent, not sure she even works, and she probably has told her friends that me and my H have been separated and are getting a D, etc.

anyway, i still am very confused as to how this would pan out. i have a session w/SH next week and i'm going to bring this up again. especially given the whole time factor. dday was just in february (i had no idea anything was going on, i was living in another state but not because of this) and from the best i can tell they probably got serious in november and if i am supposed to continue doing what i'm doing according to SH, plan A, initiate contact in some form every other day, not give him any reason to think ill of me, to be extremely sensiteve to where he's at, then what am i supposed to do?

again, don't know what to say only that every situation is still really different and unique despite some similarities and you are going to have to live w/whatever the outcome of your decision is. will i expose the A more in the future to everyone the OW knows maybe, haven't put it totally out of my head BUT i'm trying to follow my words w/actions, trying to prove i'm sincere about my changes, and if my H has always felt i just do whatever i want despite how he may feel then how would he percieve any exposure i do to her? he has already said he doesn't want me to hold any animosity to her, when did that become his main concern <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> you know not hurting her as opposed to still continuing to hurt me? i haven't ruled out involving some of my friends who still live around where my H is (and our house) and the ow. but i'll save that for later because i really am trying to know and do God's will.

christy, continue to keep us posted and i really feel for you, prayers to you.

Christy,
I have done business with clients in India. The landlines are so horrible that nearly every midlevel manager has a cell phone. Each company has different policies on personal use. Some companies allow no use while others allow use and even subsidize a portion of the use. Some susidize all use as a perk for employment.

Is the OW an Indian national or one of the thousands of expats? Usually the expats get the most perks. Their housing is completely subsidized. Even the nationals if they are high enough up receive some pretty good perks eg. a company van will come pick them up in the morning.

I guess I'm trying to say that her use of the cell phone in itself is not necessarily contrary to company policy.

I know that's a small point but I wanted to let you know.

cwmac

I'm afraid I have to agree with WAT on this one. The church group should have been the FIRST exposure out of all of them. That is what the church is FOR. Not to deceive and pretend like we are all holy, but to depend in times of need and to help us get back on track when we are lost. That is WHAT it is all about, NOT about putting on a phony show.

Whew...well I wanted responses from my MB friends, and I have to be honest, when I first posted, I was feeling a little dissed by you guys due to the lack of response...but, as I knew you would, you turned out in mass to help me!

Thank you thank you thank you thank you my beloved fellow affair sufferers! I love you all!

Ok....

Resilent: No...WH did not train big fat home wrecker, he trained the group that reports to her (and they met and "fell in love" while planning the training agenda for the class....PUUUUKKKKEEE). So no reporting structure, unfortunately.

Tinman: I agree. Exposure should be done in one fell swoop...and this was the one fatal error I made in the beginning...but the exposure I did give had no impact, so, theoretically, you keep exposing until it does make an impact. Goal is to end the affair. I cannot worry about rebuilding my M until the A stops...so that is mission #1.

Heroswife: He might go back there to train again, and was actually slated to go back in March, only the trip was canceled due to some business reorganization.

Pearl: The church knows...and my WH has walked away from his faith, a heartbreaking thing for me, because I feel even more hopeless about him pulling out of this when he has turned his back on our loving church family and worse yet, God. Even though they know, they tell me all the time how they love and miss him, and pray for him, and the men in the church are constantly calling and reaching out to him. I know they could help him heal, and I know their loving non-judgemental attitude is why I call that church my home.

Roughroad: As a fellow plan b'er, I follow your story closely. I sat through every step of your exposure to OW's family, and though I did not post (because I had nothing to really contribute that was worthwhile), I prayed for you every step of the way. Hopefully some of what I will share in this post will help you with further exposure.

cwmac: When my WH got home from India, he did tell me how every single solitary Indian person had a cell phone. The problem here is that she was making the calls stateside not using her cell, but using the companies land lines. And at $5 a minute, a 45 minute call to my WH's cell at 3am on a weekend is going to be MIGHY hard to explain. She has probably wasted more of the companies money on phone calls than she earns ob an annual basis. Plus, who knows what resources my WH is squandering on our side of the equation calling her. She is a native Indian, in Mumbai. She lives in a flat with her uncle, cousins, and a slew of other family members. The person I am going to expose to is the Senior Vice President (also indian native) of the entire Indian operations there. So, I could not go higher up on the totum poll if I tried (and I only have his name because my WH hosted a trip with him and his direct reports while he was in Tampa touring the US operations...and WH said how he talked and talked and talked to this gentleman about our family, me, etc, and how impressed they were with WH's professional AND personal passions...so I know it will shock the hell out of him to hear that WH flushed that down the toilet). Any insights you can share, culturally, on how this will be taken there (from her side of the equation)? My WH told me her father came in from Goa, had a marriage proposal he had accepted for her, on her behalf, she declined it, told him that she was in love with a married American, and he beat her. My SICK WH then says "That is how much she loves me. She even took a beating for me."


I spoke with Penny today and shared my reservations. Here were her points.

Me: It is a long distance A...it will probably fizzle out over time.

Penny: And every day that goes by that he is still in the A, the chances of your marital recovery is decreasing. We can kill romantic love, we can kill lust, but attachment, is something we can never, ever make go away. And we do not want the attachment to grow. Plus, since long distance A's never really get a chance to steep in reality, they can last and last and last. In other words, they never have the reality of bad breath, dirty laundry, bills, etc. They only have the FAKENESS of occasional calls, lovey dovey e-mails, and maybe the occasional meeting. And since it takes such a small investment on the part of my WH, he has the endurance, if it stays hidden and comfortable, to keep this up forever. He does not have to spend a lot of time, money, or energy to keep it going as it stand in the dark, now.

Me: He will think I am a spiteful, vindictive, B.

Penny: Then that probably means you should do it. If it feels like the wrong thing to do, than it is probably the right thing to do, especially since all of this is counterintuitive. And anything to add some negativity to their exchanges. I would rather your WH and the OW be stressing and experiencing the yuckiness of exposure than kissy, kissy, I love you my soul mate, if we leave them alone. It will be ugly. And then it will blow over.

Me: I feel immoral telling his employers this.

Penny: That is because we are socialized not to expose someone's bad behavior. If you knew someone was molesting a child, or abusing their wife, you would expose it. And that is only a recent shift in society. Previously, people would say nothing, and figure it was up to the family to handle. And it was not until some brave people said, no, this is wrong, I will stand up, and fight for this to be unacceptable to continue, and acceptable to expose. Well, adultery is still one of those hush, hush, it is up to the family to handle situations. And people do not molest children, abuse their spouses, or usually annouce their infidelities, in broad daylight for everyone to scrutinize. These are things that only thrive in secret, and are usually destroyed by exposure.

Me: He may never forgive me. Respect and admiration are his biggest ENS.

Penny: He may never forgive you. And chances are, in 2-3 years the A will end on its own. But also, chances are if it does last that long, you will not be able to forgive him. And respect and admiration are the only needs that are conditional. Your spouse need to do something to admire and respect. Will adultery ever be admirable and respectable to you? NO??? Well, then, this is a need you cannot meet for him while he is committing this despicable, and disrespectful act.

So...I am going to expose. It will really suck. And it might put the nail in the coffin. But, the thing about that old saying that I always seem to forget is, why is the coffin there anyways. That insinuates that there is something dead, or dying, in the coffin. My marriage is dying. I can either give it this zap, and hasten it's death, or have that zap be the one thing that brings it back to life.

Please pray for me. I am going to go to the courthouse to file for child support (since WH is not paying me a dime, and refused to do so on his recent response to the email intermediary, and FL has a law where one can file for support when a dissolution of M has not been filed). Then, I am going to change the locks, update everyone I know, including my employer, church friends, family, and my counselor on the death discussion I had with my WH, and then, I am going to expose to his and her employers.

Wish me luck.

And Wat...a special thank you to you. You are wise, self sacrificing, and wise, and funny, and did I mention wise. I really appreciate all you do to help us build our M's...and our lives! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT -

DIDO what Christy said!

Christy -

Hang in there girl. You can do this. Penny's points are excellent. Exposure of the A will bring out the REALITY WARTS of this relationship.

I hope your next post starts like this:

Well fellow MBers....I did it!

Christy - no thanks required.

It's hard to refute Penny's logic. It makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Launch the nuke.

My fear is that the company will say, "ho hum."

But think of this, even if further exposure doesn't work - maybe the best thing could be for your H to go back over there and see her again. Over the months, he may have exaggerated her to himself, she got skinny and more beautiful, and became more of an expectation than reality. A Goddess.

Then BAM - he's with her again. In the flesh. Wanna take bets that he'll be disappointed???

WAT

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Christy -

WAT is ssooooooo right here. Your H has romanticized their A. He sees her as the picture he has painted in his head. That's not reality.

Now the fact that he could go back over there would trouble me. I know that it would probably be best for him to go back and see her in the flesh but I'm not sure my sanity could handle that. I'd probably freak out and do anything and everything I could to keep him from going.

I know the company I work for is very high profile in the technology industry and anything that gives HR a hint of possible public concern is nipped in the butt immediately. If this situation was revealed today the parties involved would be addressed before COB. Not sure there would be any firings but corporate would do everything they could to protect the reputation of the company...even if this wouldn't hurt the national image the local image of the company would be greatly impacted by a sexual harassment lawsuit.

I personally think this should be something that is covered in employee training. We've had SH training and no one really took it seriously.

So you are going to wait until you change the locks before exposure? When do you plan to do that? The longer you wait to expose the less impact exposure will have. Keep that in mind. I waited months before I exposed. I prolonged my pain and the pain of my family. While exposure was very helpful it would have been better on all parties involved had I done it day 1.

Sending you my prayers.

Hmmm, what's the name of this company?

Bet they have a web site, huh?

If they're public, even an investor relations page??

Hmmmmmmmm?

Lessee, where's my list of companies like this that I own stock in????? Where did I put it???

Oh, here it is. Gotta be on this list. If I only knew which one it was, I could inquire about their standards of conduct they expect of their employees and contractors. Maybe even ask how they control costs of overseas telecommuting expenses. Hmmm, what line is that included in on their quarterly submittal????

WAT

thanks christy for giving us an update and for replying to everyone! what a sweetheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> the only thing is i'm actually not a plan B'er, yet anyway. i'm trying to do a very difficult balancing act with what i'm doing now. i never knew anything before DDay which was just in feburary and he has not denied anything since then. so will i regret not exposing more down the road? don't know, but if i did would i regret what i did down the road? maybe, does that make sense? the only exposure that could possibly do the trick right now is like i said exposing it to people the OW knows, works with, related to, etc.

right now, along w/SH i feel that if i did those things then my H wouldn't have a good picture of me and i don't want to give him any AMMUNITION to use against me even if it's on a subconscious level. don't want the OW saying, "see what she's (me) doing? you just need to get rid of her" then my H would say "yeah, you're right, enough is enough, i've tried to be nice and not hurt her but i've got to get on w/my life." it really is a catch 22 of where it could go. but another thing is that i'm not in the same state and would have to do a lot of investigating and can't really do this right now. or i could pay for someone to do it and i'm always keeping that option in the back of my head.

i think that if you believe in the MB concepts are counseling w/someone then we at some point need to follow their advice. that's what we pay them for right? well not that exactly but you get my drift. if SH told me to do something tomorrow that i wasn't really comfortable with i wouldn't do it but i don't really feel he would do that. as always you know who the best counselor is of all, God and he is always available and his advice is always right. definitely sending prayers to you and keep us posted.

Bumping this up in hopes to hear how you're doing, Christy.

Jo

Wat:

The worldwide rules of conduct state:

"As a finance professional of the Firm, you are expected to:

Engage in and promote ethical conduct, including the ethical handling of actual or apparent conflicts of interest between personal and professional relationships, and to disclose to the Office of the Corporate Secretary any material transaction or relationship that reasonably could be expected to give rise to such a conflict.
Carry out your responsibilities honestly, in good faith and with integrity, due care and diligence, exercising at all times the best independent judgment.
Assist in the production of full, fair, accurate, timely and understandable disclosure in reports and documents that the Firm and its subsidiaries file with, or submit to, the Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulators and in other public communications made by the Firm.
Comply with applicable government laws, rules and regulations of federal, state and local governments and other appropriate regulatory agencies.
Promptly report (anonymously, if you wish to do so) to the Audit Committee of the Board of Directors any violation of this Code of Ethics or any other matters that would compromise the integrity of the Firm's financial statements. You may contact the Audit Committee, by mail: Audit Committee, blah blah blah).
Never to take, directly or indirectly, any action to coerce, manipulate, mislead or fraudulently influence the Firm's independent auditors in the performance of their audit or review of the Firm's financial statements.

Compliance with this Code of Ethics is a term and condition of your employment. The Firm will take all necessary actions to enforce this Code, up to and including immediate dismissal. Violations of this Code of Ethics may also constitute violations of law which may expose both you and the Firm to criminal or civil penalties.

If you have any questions about how this Code of Ethics should be applied in a particular situation, you should promptly contact the Office of the Corporate Secretary."

My letter to the boss guys (per Penny's advice) is:

"Dear Boss dude,

My husband WH, who is a title for business unit here, became involved in a sexual relationship with a coworker, big fat whore's name here, while he was working overseas on xxxx project. Ms. homewrecker is a title here in Mumbai, India.

Since my husband's return to the US he has continued his relationship with this coworker, and is using firm name resources such as the toll free office phone to do so. Ms. homewrecker also calls him using company phone service (e.g. one call in mid-march to his personal phone that lasted over 45 minutes). There is no legitimate business need for them to remain in contact.

I love my husband and it is my hope to keep my marriage together in spite of this affair. I am also concerned that he and firm name are now liable to a sexual harassment suit as a result of this affair. Please encourage both of them to end all contact permanently to avoid further damage to my marriage, my precious family, his career, and the company's reputation.

Sincerely,
Christy"

So any ideas, if even necessary, on how to weave in the code deal (if it is even applicable)?