I am fairly new here. My husband and I have both had affairs and we are trying to work things out. I have been posting in the "Just Found Out" forum, but not getting many responses.

My husband told me something last night. He says that his main problem right now is of the "mental pictures in his head of me having sex with the OM". We are using the info on the site as we try to work this out. He told me to come here and see if anybody had any help for him in erasing his "mental pictures".

I would love to hear from some men, and I would really love to hear from a moderator or two about this. My husband says he forgives me but he is still trying frequently and successfully to hurt me. Any comments appreciated.

Sadly:

The paradoix is that he is hurting you because every time he plays one of those mental tapes in his head, it's as though you are hurting him anew. It is as if you are being punished for his thoughts.

My experience with the images was very much tied to how our intimate life was pre-A, and, let me tell you, it was dismal. We were in a very sterile, cold R, and WW had no intimate feelings towards me. Thus, when the A came to light, I was plagued by the fact that OM was able to do for her what I wanted so desperately to do but was so completely unable.

When it came right down to it, the images were fuelled by my jealousies and insecurities. They were exacerbated by my WW's reluctance to truly discuss them with me. Whenever we tried to discuss the physical part of our M or her A, she'd shut down on me. I felt left out.

The worst part for me was not the images of the OM per se, but rather her responding to him in a way that she didn't to my touch. I felt inadequate, and angry that I did.

So, I was left utterly alone with my images. Bad place to be. Nature abhors a vacuum, so when my WW wouldn't provide illumination, my imagination would provide the rest.

I think that you need to explore them with him. Be careful! In all liklihood he has all sorts of wild images. He will probably have imagined far more than what really transpired, and thus his punitive actions towards you.

Also ,it is hard to avoid defensiveness, but you must try. These are dark thoughts that put one in a dark, dark place. For him to truly open up to you, he must feel safe. That is, not judged or negated ("well, you should have..."). Listen. Empathize.

If necessary, encourage. This is a touchy area, since in a good number of cases the sex was better with the OP. Even if that's the case, I think most of us would at like least to hear that it wasn't dreadful with us. There has to be hope!

You hurt him - sorry to say, but there is no denying that. Any creature, when hurt, will lash out. He is lashing out; at least he is alive and still cares enough about you to be hurt! Don't cater to it, but don't invalidate his pain.

Thank you Uphill! What a great response. I really appreciate it. What you said about him punishng me for his thoughts makes sense. However, I can't put up with it forever. I really want to help him get over his mental pictures, whatever they are.

Our sex life, too was dismal. I would say that it was a mutual screw up, but he gives most of the credit to me. Anyway, my OM was somebody that I had known a long time and considered a friend. My husband has always been jealous of him, though he had no reason to be. The OM is outgoing, attractive, and has always been what people call a "ladies man" I guess.

I know my husband probably is tormenting himself thinking that the sex was better with the OM than with him. Now, here is where we are different. I had thought that it would hurt him much more to hear details...plus he has said that he doesn't want them. Now he says he has these mental pictures in his head and you seem to be telling me to give him details. Is that right? That just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I totally realize how different men and women think.

Please write me again and tell me what kind of details you would want to hear, if this were you. I thank you SO much for the reply.

Nobody:

One big difference between your sitch and mine is that only my W had the A. So, I don't know what it would be like to be your H and have to deal with the anguish of being betrayed but compounded with the guilt he must feel over his own A.

Did you ever have images of your H and his OW in your head?

I don't know if that's a fair comparison. Women and men respond very differently to the act of betrayal, and men tend to be much more hung up on the physical act than the emotional act. So, it might be fair to say that how you process his betrayal of you might not be a suitable basis to compare how he feels. Perhaps the order of who had their A first has an impact. If either of you had a "revenge A", the dynamics would be different than for the originator's.

So, while I don't want to presume too much about what your H may or may not be seeing, I would make one suggestion: talk in a non-defensive way.

You made a comment, "Our sex life, too was dismal. I would say that it was a mutual screw up, but he gives most of the credit to me." Then, you just drop it, "Anyway, OM..." Obviously you and your H have differing opinions on what happened. You say it was a mutual screw up, then how so?

How does he blame you?

I think you have to be open enough to hear the other's point of view without immediately jumping to a defensive stand. It was a real big thing for me whenever I'd try to bring up something that was important to me (like our dismal sex life), but W would immediately launch a counter-attack. She'd tell me I was wrong for what I was feeling, and that I was wrong, that in fact I wasn't feeling what I thought I was. Then she'd rattle off all of the counterveiling arguments as to why my position had no credence whatsoever.

To my end, I'd made all sorts of assumptions about why she was witholding sex. I assumed she'd manipulated me into getting married by pretending to be more sexual than she was, a sort of bait and switch tactic. Then I thought I could outwait her, so I started to hold back on my displays of 1affection for her. We'd soon see who'd cave first!

It became a game of chicken. But, since she seemed stronger than me, I assumed she was just a mean, controlling b*tch who wanted to have me like the children, dependent on her. These were untrue, but they were the basis of my actions.

So, don't go jumping to conclusions. Don't negate his perspective. Don't get defensive, but talk about it.

Also, be honest, but be tactful.

Uphill -

No, I honestly don't have images of him and the OW in my head. And because I don't I have reached this conclusion....this is just another example of how men and women are SO different. He only had sex with her a few times, but spent hours (and still spends some time) with her on the phone. My biggest emotional need is conversation. Okay, so the fact that he put so much into the relationship with her is what hurts me...I can move past the sexual much easier.

Okay, so my OM and I had mainly a sexual affair and my husband knows it. There was very little emotional attachment other than a genuine affection for each other. We didn't talk much, okay? So now my husband has the biggest problem with the fact that I had a lot of sex with my OM. He talks to me constantly about how many women my OM has had through the years, as if I don't know that already. So, I guess his biggest emotional need must be sex? Is that the picture you are getting? He is most upset over that because it is of the most importance to him, while I am most upset over his emotional involvement with his OW because he gave her what he WOULDN'T give me...conversation? I guess that's it.

Problem is now, what to do about it? Every time we talk he tells me that what I have done is much more wrong that what he has done. Okay, I think that we were both wrong. I really don't believe in different levels of adultery.

Please tell me the kind of information you would want if this were you. I'm NOT A MAN!!! I don't know what to tell him!! Thank you again, so much.

P.S. His was the revenge affair...you used a good term for it. I was first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by NobodyToTalkTo:
I can't put up with it forever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Care to elaborate about this coment?

Are you making a timetable for his healing based on your need ... not his?

Is there an empathy shortage?

I am confused and concerned about this remark of yours.

Pep

NTTT:

Gee, tough place to be. Yes, for most men, sex is #1 or #2 need. Lack of it, witholding it, rejecting it are all seen as MAJOR love busters (LB). It is very personal, and it cuts very deep.

Guys are both territorial and possessive about sex. That is why it is harder for most men to overcome the betrayal of a physical affair (PA) than it is for women. But, as you have experienced, the emotional affair (EA) bothers women much, much more than it does men.

There is an imbalance. I mean, it is both socially acceptable and proper to engage in conversation with people other than your spouse. There is a line - make no mistake - but we can all expect to enjoy healthy, rewarding conversations with other people. I think the trick is that we hope that the deepest, most intimate conversations would be with our spouses.

But, with sex, there is no socially acceptable or proper way to fulfill any of this need outside of marriage. It is supposed to be the one thing that we fulfill exclusively with our spouses. I think certainly for the majority of men, this is the commonly held view.

As much as it hurt you to know your H could make himself and his time available to OW to talk and emotionally connect, he feels the same over your capacity to be physical with OM.

Now, were you ever concerned or worried that OW was perhaps a better conversationalist than you? That she had a better sense of humor, or was better versed on topics?
That she was more articulate?
Do you ever fear that he would prefer to talk to her over you?
Do you ever wonder if H is comparing you to her when he talks with you?
Or, that when he is conversing with you, he is mentally thinking of her?

The reason I ask is because that is most likely what your H is thinking, except about you and the physical connection with OM. Was he a better lover? Was he more skilled, better equipped? Did you enjoy sex with OM more? Do you ever miss OM, and have to think of him when with your H?

But, as I said, sex is much more private and restricted, whereas conversation is very much an open and social interaction. So, I bet from your H's perspective, the talking with OM wasn't so bad, and he could probably live quite well if he knew that OM was a better conversationalist or had a bigger vocabulary. Men have commonly accepted that women do have both a greater need and capacity for conversation and the bonding that occurs therein. Most women have female friends with whom they share things that men generally do not.

Conversation probably is not as big a need for him as it is for you. In all liklihood, it was probably a bigger thing for his OW than it was for him.

Contrary to what women commonly think, men do see sex as a bonding medium. What's that old saying - women need to be in love to have sex, men need to have sex to fall in love? It's based on some truth. That is why when a woman rejects her H sexually, he takes it as a deep and personal rejection of him. "She doesn't love me!"

Also, if you read here, you will see that for most men the pleasure of their partners is a very big thing. Almost any guy will tell you that if his partner just lay there and didn't respond, the whole thing would lose it's aura quickly. That is a very unfulfilling thing. In fact, in India, there is a tradition that the woman's O transfers energy to the man. Her pleasure is, in effect, his pleasure.

So, that is why the competitive aspect of it throws things awry. Your H is very worried that you prefer OM to him, and that you might miss his touch. I know for me this was a big root of my fears, and a huge blow to my ego. But, I know that it was more fulfilling for my WW with OM than with me. He awoke things in her that had been gone a long time, and took her to a level she'd never been before.

The fact that you describe your A as largely sexual is probably very humiliating to him. It's very emasculating, as if you walked up to him in the shower, pointed and started laughing. He may be confused by this, too. "If an emotional connection was so important, why did you have a mostly physical A?" In his worst moments, he may feel like you did it specifically to hurt and humiliate him.

One thing, my issue with the physical aspects dramatically affected everything else about our recovery. About 6 months after D-day, W would tell me how much she loved me. She'd tell me what a great father I was, what a good husband I was, how considerate I was, how handy around the house I was. She'd praise me and compliment things I did. But you know what - all that rang hollow. Every time she said something, I'd get really down. I felt like such a chump - yeah, sure great guy, but clearly not a man. All of those things paled in comparison to the fact that I couldn't compare to him (OM) in the one area that meant so much to me. I didn't see it at the time, but one of the things W was doing was saying those things aloud to me to shape her thoughts about me, but they hurt so much that I kept rejecting the sincerity of her words.

I am just guessing what he's thinking. I could be off base, or letting my own issues cloud things. I think other guys may agree or contradict what I'm saying. I know many of them have been far more grounded and capable of working over this issue than me, so I don't consider myself representative of all BH. But, your H had an A, so I don't know what that is doing to his thought processes. Maybe he is applying some double standard. It was okay for him, the guy, to step out, but it's not for the woman. Maybe his guilt is clouding his judgement.

Maybe part of it lies in who had their A first - you or him. Was the other's A an act of revenge or retaliation? Was it an act of reaffirmation - "You may not find me attractive, but somebody out there will."

I don't mean to discourage you but Uphills comments are very accurate in my opinion. This will simply take time and I don't no that there is anything you can do about the visuals. They say 8 mos. and I'd agree. My W had a ONS 2.5 yrs ago and continues in an EA. While I fight her on the EA I am only able to continue so long because it is no longer PA. This ONS paralyzed me and I think W well understands that EA is much more acceptable to men than to woman. And PA is easier to digest by woman than men. Most men aren't sharp enough to identify an EA as an affair. Not until they go through it. To men an A is physical.

Uphill, that's a nice piece of work and very helpful to me. I hope NobodyToTalkTo can take something from it.

You said, "My husband says he forgives me but he is still trying frequently and successfully to hurt me."

He is not trying to hurt you. You both have a lot of pain, and he is trying to have you help him deal with it. If he wants dates, times and positions, then you have to tell him. That is the only way for both of you to get through this.

First, Jimmy Mac-
No, he is TRYING to hurt me. I haven't gotten into it here because I really want help here with this mental picture thing and I want to keep this thread focused on that. But he has spent the last few weeks since I discovered his affair going out of his way to hurt in in areas that have nothing to do with either affair. But if it's okay with all of you, I don't want to branch off into that here.

Uphill -
God bless you for talking to me. You are helping me so much. I really am trying to understand and I JUST DON'T THINK LIKE HE DOES. But I'm trying to learn here. I think that my affair was mostly physical rather than emotional because...in my heart...I only wanted to share my emotions with my husband. I withheld that from my lover and kept it for my marriage. That may not make sense to you men and you don't have to point out that I was wrong. Believe me I know it and I'm paying the price for it daily.

My husband had what you have called the "revenge affair". He may not look at emotions as importantly as I do...it seems that way. And that is how his A started out, so I'm sure it was "innocent" like you say. Granted we can all talk to anyone we want to. But, let's face it. One night or day the conversation got a little more personal than it should have between people who are not married to each other. A line could have and should have been drawn, but then he continued and made it a physical affair too. So he gave his lover boths sides of the coin. I did not and I think he thinks even less of me because I didn't get so emotionally involved with the OM. I really think he wishes I was in love with the OM. This does not make sense to me.

So, we have established that he cheated on me in the way that would hurt me the most, plus had sex with her. I cheated on him the way that would hurt him the most. It's not that his sexual involvement with this woman doesn't hurt me...it does. But I believe that part is over, so I am moving past it. However, he won't let her go. He still talks to her numerous times each day. We live in a place where we are going to bump into her frequently. It happened Mon. night for the first time. That was VERY hard for me. My affair has been over for months now, and the OM is nowhere around yet he clings to his "mental pictures".

I,like your wife, have been trying to praise and compliment him every chance I get, plus tell him that I love him frequently. You say this made it worse? Should I stop? WHY do you think your wife's OM is a better lover than you are. Did she actually tell you that? Or is it still just in your head? Do I have to tell my husband things about how he is better in bed than the OM to make him get over this? Help! I'm lost!!

Bottom line, do you think I should just have him sit down and ask me every single question he can think of? I am willing to do that, if he will let it go afterwards. Remember that he has told me numerous times he doesn't want details.

I really look forward to hearing from you again. God has put you here to help me, I truly believe. God bless. Thank you.

NTTT,

One thing you need to remember is that men are 'visual' creatures. We "see" things and it drives our sexual needs. We respond to visual stimulation, hence the "movies" playing in his head. They will gradually go, if the experiences are any indication as you and he make new 'movies'.

It is probably the single biggest difference, the ability for men to visualize, that exists.

So have patience. It seems to me you have found a source of good advice.

Take care,

JL

NTTT:

Ahhhh, the dynamics!

So, H had a "revenge" A? Was it specifically a revenge A, or was it "reaffirmation" A?

I differentiate between the two because I think there is a HUGE differnce. A BS engages in a "revenge" A with the purpose of making the WS hurt. "Know my pain" might be a good moniker. There is no real attachment to the OP, other than to find a willing participant.

A "reaffirmation" A is less about the pain the BS wants the WS to feel and more about reaffirming their own attractiveness. Their spouse's A makes them feel worthless, unloved and undesirable. They engage in an A to prove that they are desirable and attractive to someone else. Perhaps they want to get in on all the positive feelings the WS seems to have experienced.

So, one question would be: what was the motivation for your H's A?

Another issue is the imbalance between the two, and it seems to be really plaguing you. He gave the OW an emotional fill he was not giving you, as well as getting the SF he was looking for. It sounds like it really bothers you that he gave both "heart and body" to her, while you only gave your body to your OM.

I wonder - did you think you were somehow protecting your H by witholding your emotions from OM?

But, there are other issues. You had the A first, and I would suspect your H certainly feels that this makes you the more in error. Perhaps he can justify his A as some sort of reaction to yours, either for revenge or reaffirmation, that would not have occurred had you not strayed first. I think that both of you have some major blame issues to sort out.

You asked if you should stop praising him. I honestly don't know. I think there is a risk that if you do, he will consider it to be a sign that you're giving up.

You said he is intentionally hurting you. Perhaps he is still hurting and wanting you to know that he is still in pain. Like so many BS here have discovered, a revenge (or reaffirmation) A does not equal the playing field, nor does it lessen the pain of the initial betrayal. He might be experiencing that, and subsequently experiencing the pain of disappointment that his A didn't resolve anything. That is something other BS, particularly those who have had their own A, might better answer.

I know that I often thought of a revenge A, well more of a reaffirmation A. I didn't, but that was due in no small part to the fact that I felt that if my W didn't want me, no one would. You asked how I know about the quality of SF W had with her OM? She told me how good it was, and it eclipsed anything we'd ever had. I just couldn't compete.

And that brings me to the final point. Should you talk to him? I like that you said have him ask any question he might have. But, as he has said, he doesn't want details.

It seems to me that the BS fall into 2 categories - those that want details and those that don't. I am in the former category. I couldn't help but ask, since my imagination was going into overtime. It hurt like hell to hear how great OM was. It hurt like hell to hear that SF had always been disappointing with me. It hurt like hell to hear that W had long since lost any desire for me, "loved me like a brother", and that the desire hadn't returned at all 1 year after D-day. I felt like I had been conned, but then I was appreciative of my W that she told me.

NTTT, I ought to let you know that I left my M because of that. I just couldn't accept a celibate M. Sadly, when I told W I was leaving in March, she offered to have SF with me, even though she didn't desire it, if that would convince me to stay. I just couldn't accept - it wouldn't have solved anything. But, it made me cry to when she offered, since I knew she was really putting herself out there. She could have lied and faked it, but she was honest.

Gosh, it makes me all teary writing it now.

I don't want to threadjack. You're asking about your H. I have to admit that the not wanting to know details is something I can't relate to. But, that just goes to show you that you can't apply a cookie-cutter solution to us all. I have my hangups which have shaped my recovery, or lack thereof. Your H has his. The big thing is to respect them.

He doesn't want to know the details, so I say respect that. But - BUT! - if in a couple of weeks he does, then tell him. Don't get all confused about his change of heart, and don't hold it against him that he doesn't want to hear them now. I think it is a sign that he is moving through different stages in his process.

But, what you tell him is part of it. The other part is HOW. Whatever you do,don't lie. If SF with OM was better, then tell him. Tactfully. I think that you need to quantify it. Was it way better or just a little? Was it more varied? Did OM have any techniques that your H could learn, or was he so well equipped that your H might as well forget about it (the size thing may well be a big issue). I know that for women the SF portion is much more than simply the physical or technique, that emotional state are really the foundation. Perhaps there is nothing more H needs to do to "compete" with OM other than simply build the emotional bridge with you.

But, where are you starting? Are you and H intimate now? Is is better, worse or no different than in the past?

One more thing. It is very common for BS to test their WS. Sometimes they don't even know they are doing this, but think of it like trying to establish if your protestations of love are true or simply window-dressing. Remember, trust has been lost, and you can't demand he has to trust you. You've got to earn it.

I don't think this is solely the domain of the BS. I know that for years before her A my W would test me. She let her hygiene and appearance drop, to see if I loved the "true and inner" her or just the exterior trappings. "See me at my worst - do you still love me?" So, it is something that is not so alien that you can't relate. Have you ever done things that tested your H's love of you?

And, finally, it sounds like you both have some big resentment issues towards one another. I get the distinct impression that you somehow feel that his poor treatment of you or your M prior to your A were in some way responsible for it. It sounds like he resents the fact that you are not as remorseful as he somehow feels you should be. Perhaps you are looking for him to apologize to you, to show you remorse and make amends for how he wronged you in the past. Perhaps he simply took you for granted, neglected you, or didn't make you a priority in his life. Perhaps there was more overt abuse. Whatever, I get the sense that you need for him to have his "ah-ha!" moment and realize how much he has hurt you in the past and take some ownership for your A.

If that's the case, I would certainly agree with the need to apologize for poor or abusive behavior. I know I felt VERY responsible for my W's A, that somehow I drove her to it. The problem with that is I didn't make her do anything, and I shouldn't have taken away her ownership of the A. It, and the subsequent consequences, are hers to bear. If things were that bad, she had other, more noble options, such as ending the M first. I see now that I was disrespecting her dignity as human being to have choices and exercise them. Similarly, I must bear the responsibility for the things I did or did not do, and be held accountable for those consequences.

That, ultimately, is the key. You must take ownership of your A in all aspects, including the consequences. He must take ownership of his, and of the things he did previously. That means recognizing when you've done wrong by someone else, apologizing and making amends. I know it sounds like 12 step talk, but it is very profoundly true. In fact, I sincerely believe that in the dank fallout of an A, the only way one is going to grow beyone it is to see this.

The thing is, you can't make someone want to grow, or do the right thing. You can only do it yourself, and hope they are inspired to follow your lead.

Good luck. I hope other BS can give their insights, too.

To Just Learning -
Thanks you for posting here too. I agree with you assessment of the 'movies in his head". When we talked about this last, I told him that if he would just let me, I would replace all the movies in his head with new ones. I hope he let's me.

To Walkingoneggs -
Thanks for posting too. You have some insight about the differences in the emotional/physical man/woman thing that I'm working on. I hope my husband will work on it too.

To Uphill-
Thanks again for the latest post. I have only had time to skim it, but will return later. About the "revenge" and "reaffirmation" difference, I thought his was a "reaffirmation" affair until he told me Sat. night that he did it on purpose so that I would be hurt when I found out. He and the OW actually planned to get caught by her husband, who told me. He also said that his sole purpose in having the affair was to "get my attention". Isn't that depressing. I guess the sex was just a little extra. It was revenge all the way. Will be back.