CV55! Yes, Dad read that book right after Dday. I didn't read it though. Yes, he is extremely selfish and it is all about HIM and no one else. Can he change this behaviour.

he just convenientlly "forgets" things that do not concern HIM. I cannot live this way for the rest of my life. With a man who is so selfish he cannot even call me or think of me. My birthday is on the 26th, he does always remember, but it is always at the last minute and never really anything special to him. he always wants to do things for him never for me or US! I am tired of pleasing HIM, HIM, HIM and I am such a pleaser person. WHY do I have to be that way.

You know, when we first started dating, I was the type of person who would give him cards, and gifts and send little notes...he never did any of that stuff. I even did it after we were married. Then I stopped, and got selfish...just selfish from him. I would always please other people, but when it came to him. I stopped. Not good. Now, i see the same pattern...

So, guys...what do you think? Do you think Dad can change?

Mom, the cards , notes, etc. might be your needs, but not his. The whole EN questionaire was an eye opener for both H and I. The idea that we give each other what we need, instead of finding out what the other needs. However, the whole premise of this MB is to find out each other's top ENs and then want to meet them. Example, neither H nor I knew admiration was a top EN of his. It's one of my bottom needs so it wasn't even on my radar screen. Of course the little "B" was admiring the heck out of him.

Read what the book ATA says about narcissism. Eventually your H has to want to meet your ENs. If he is still heavy into withdrawal he might not be able to now. Hopefully he has stopped the A. The one thing my H does feel is a deep remorse. I know in the book "Surviving an Affair" Harley says that remorse isn't necessary for recovery, but personally I'm not sure I could go on without it.

Hang in there. It's a rough road. We have been doing pretty good, but just this morning it hit me again what H actually did. I remembered dropping my son off at school in the beginning of this nightmare and just sobbing in my car. H and I just started making love again. I told him this morning that once again it hit me how he was screwing another woman for months. His 1st response was meant to be reassuring but it pissed me off. He said, "It's you and I who are together now. It's our 2 bodies." I stopped him and said, "Hear what I'm saying. You were having sex with someone else. I'm not going to just get over that." We can't afford to talk to SH every week so we didn't this week. I told H I want to talk to SH next week, get this plan going, and then start MC again. I know I need help in recovering from this.

You know I'm thinking about you. I can feel your frustration. D2 might be having such a hard time just because he sees her at that NH. It wasn't until my H really began NC that I saw him waking up. Is D2 on an AD?

Mom, I see myself in you.

From all the reading I did, do not expect him to change. Change yourself first. I read a book name How the one of you can put two of you togehter. I found out that I am a pleaser from that book. It said that these kind of people always please others, in turn, they expect others do the same to them. But it will not happen. We have to take care of ourself first, then we can care others. Don't expect others to take care of you. I can't say thing too deep. The book is goos. It tells you not to sacrifies yourself. I am also listening to the book The Four Agreement. It talks about similar thing.

Right now my apporach is to try to improve myself, from really inner, not just the surface. It makes you feel good. The more I practice taking care of myself, I mean sipritually, the more I feel good. I am sure he will see it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, guys...what do you think? Do you think Dad can change? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do I think? Do I think MOM can change???

Yes!!! I do... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think Mom could choose to listen to the extremely wise words from Just J and ark among others...

I think Mom is capable of figuring out WHY it is that people such as Just J, ark and myself think you are LBing, even though you disagree...(yes, I know that you and others disagree that you are LBing, nevertheless, you are...and it is hurting you, dad and your boys)...

I think Mom could learn that LBs can be said in a very soft voice...

I think Mom could learn that LBs begin inside your own head...

I think Mom could learn that LBs are actions too (like "kicking him out of the house"), no matter how justified they EVER seem to you (and to others apparently)...

I think Mom could choose to stop looking for support that enables you to continue LBing and instead seek out the support that will help you to CHANGE your behaviour for good...

I think most of all, Mom could listen to lost'n'hurt who has made the most poignant response to you I've ever read in your many many threads...

do you know what comment I am talking about Mom? (Hint: it is not the most recent one, although that one is great advice too...)

do you read her posts? (you didn't respond to the comment I'm referring to)

do you "hear" the hard-earned lessons she is valiantly trying to share with you? this woman who is also in great pain right now, who is trying so hard to learn lessons about herself and apply this knowledge to change herself, despite the extremely hurtful actions/words/behaviour of her WS?

most of us arrived here in great pain mom...your story is no different in that one horrible regard, although our individual circumstances differ...

some of us have moved past our pain and learned enough about ourselves to change...here's where I truly hope our stories can remain the same...

that is why we hope you can CHANGE mom...we really do...

this is the best, kindest, most SUPPORTIVE thing we can do for you...try to get you to listen...to change YOURSELF...

dad will be dad in dad's own time at dad's own pace, with or without OW...

YOU are here...YOU can listen...YOU can learn...

So, Mom...what do you think? Do you think you can change?

awed

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

OUCH! That 2 x 4 hurt! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I think it knocked some sense into me! You are absolutely right! I must take lostnhurts advice and change MYSELF </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From all the reading I did, do not expect him to change. Change yourself first. I read a </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks lostnhurt and thanks awed for the 2x4!

I think i need help! i think I have my blinders on! Can you help me take them off! Please help me! What can I do! I am in an emotional chaotic state of disorder rihgt now. I am doing all the wrong things right and all the right things wrong. He just makes me so frustrated...how do I get past that. How do I make MYSELF not react to him. I was so good at this when he was out of the house. Now I have to sit there and look at him...sometimes he makes me sick. He is so happy IF I meet all his needs...but he is clueless!

We have done the EN"s and the LB's...one thing Dr Harely said at the seminar and I am going to do this for Dad, maybe run it by him and remind him of this...
Dr. Harley said that one H was trying to meet his W's EN's she had something like 24 pages of them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> well, they narrowed it down to the top 5 or maybe 10 En's. he made a list each day and would check off as he met them.

hug wife in the morning
call wife from road
call wife from office
kiss wife
talk to wife when i get home
etc, etc...

each time a need was met, he would check it off...sounds silly, yes, but that was the only way it would become a habit. I am going to do this for myself so I can remember to meet his top EN's...one of his top EN's is admiration...I KNOW I am not good at that...

I really need help here. I am at a loss for what I am doing. Could I be giving up? Do I just not care anymore?

STOP beating yourself up...this is hard...this is painful...I am sure it is going to be the hardest most painful thing you ever go through...

that is good!

why??? because we can change at an extremely fundamental level during these times of crisis...whereas we are quite unlikely to change fundamentally when are lives are purring along!

I'd strongly suggest reading that book L'N'H suggested: Susan Page, How The One of You Can Bring The Two of You Together ...

Page has some excellent exercises for helping you to see how YOUR perspective needs changing and then do it...

here's a little simple suggestion for you in the meantime...

when you want to say "I can't"...you change it to "I won't"...

instead of "everytime he brings up OW I can't help myself...I get angry!"

change it to: "everytime he brings up OW I won't help myself...I get angry!"

see the difference? you ARE in control Mom...come up with a plan for YOU...

look: my H dipped back into contact so badly it would make your head spin! so what can you do??? well...nothing and everything...

you KNOW what you need to do mom...walk away if you are angry, no matter how angry...

do not discuss OW if it makes your blood boil...

use "I" statements ALWAYS...figure out what you want to say, practice it here first...try it out to make sure you are not LBing quietly, in small devious ways as ark suggested and you concurred...

then you tell him HONESTLY how it makes YOU feel...

that is WHAT you can do...

you don't think this is powerful???

I can tell you it is far likelier to get the response from your H that you are dreaming of Mom...more than all your yelling, and crying, and throwing him out, and getting other people to talk to him...

you telling him HONESTLY how it makes you feel...when you are not LBing him anymore...when you've stopped any and all threats against him...

look at it this way: basically you would be relinquishing any control over him that you do not have anyhow...

okay??? you do not have it so you are NOT letting anything go...except any illusion of control you still have...

he WILL feel this relinquishing on your part more than anything -- any one single thing -- you will or could or should do...

that one little thing...

it is huge...

do not underestimate it as so many people do...

then: in 2 weeks, or better yet whenever you cannot stop LBing, whenever you NEED to protect yourself from the pain...then you go to Plan B for YOU...

and he will finally be left with the honestly expressed emotions of his beloved W...whom he has hurt immensely...

instead of the lasting and lingering image of someone full of LBs, who cast HER judgements at him like nails...

that's the big difference you can leave him with...since you still need to hear something about HIM in all this ranting about YOU...

(I still want you to do this for YOU though, despite any effect it has on HIM...)

and Mom? this lesson you are learning? you can apply it to everyone else in your life, for the rest of your life...so embrace this learning...you will feel SO much better, I can absolutely assure you of this...

please take care of yourself...we BS forget to do this, so caught up in the drama that has become our lives...laugh and love others...reduce your focus on H and focus on you instead, through others, with others...e-mail people here about books, movies, life...ya know?

all the best...awed

P.S. sigh...so much to say, so little time...I know you hate the length of my posts...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I have to sit there and look at him...sometimes he makes me sick. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a) get up and leave the room
b) use the suggestions in Page's book: change your thoughts about him...aren't you expecting him to do the same with you? then do it yourself first...think GOOD things...

can't think of any??? why do you want to be with him then? come on...I know there are still some good thoughts in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...do I need to go dig them out of your earlier, more euphoric posts???

every time you have a bad thought, replace it with a good one...you can fall in love again too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am going to do this for myself so I can remember to meet his top EN's...one of his top EN's is admiration...I KNOW I am not good at that... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you see? I KNOW you can change! that's the ticket...give yourself homework...expect yourself to change through hard work alone...it is hard to break habits...

and feel free to share this experience with dad...it will be good for him to understand that you are making a huge effort to change just like he needs to do the same...

apologize when you screw up...(yes, apologize)...if you have trouble understanding why you need to apologize for such a small transgression, then repeat mantras to yourself like: "two wrongs don't ever make a right"...

remember: this is NOT about dad...you are NOT rewarding him for bad behaviour...change your thinking about this forever...

you are doing this for YOU (and your wonderful boys)...you are putting the BEST effort into you and your M...

then as redhat says, you will have no regrets...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am at a loss for what I am doing. Could I be giving up? Do I just not care anymore?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you care immensely and I think you know this...you hurt and are angry because you care...

but you are going to take a new tack for the next little while...you are going to be quiet and think before you speak...before you act...no matter WHAT the provocation...

you face this challenge in baby steps, one hour at a time, one day...see where it takes you...allow yourself the "out" of plan B...know that you have a mental refuge for yourself...

plan B is not a punishment for dad...but a refuge for you...

again...best of luck to you...I know you can do this mom...

MOM, I know your frustration, believe me I know. You know what Dr. Harley said about our cases. Mine is worse!

But I am not let down. I learn ro concentrate on myself. Everything I do for WH, I did not do it for him, I did it for GOD. GOD told us to be good wives. My reward is feeling good myself, becasue I obey GOD. How WH acts, it is his choice. Anything he did or said wrong, he did it to himself. I don't judge, GOD will. I am putting my faith in GOD.

I only started believe about 6 years ago. I exoerienced some mairacles already. But I was drfiting away from HIM, by taking my own pride. I think now GOD give me this lesson. I learned to discard my own pride, to obey, to be humble. It really took me long time to realize this. I read a lot of books.

Here is something I read from what my D gave me.

Thank goodness for disasters.

1. Have any of them opened new doors for you?

My asnwer: yes, many doors. I read a lot of book I wuold never read. I throw my pride and changed my way of thinking and acting.

2. Have any made you stronger and wiser?

Yes, glory to GOD. My strength and wisdom is all from GOD. I couldn't do it myself.

3. have any beed a lesson for you?

Yes, many lessons. I learned to take care of myself and take care of my family in the right way. I learned to move on with or without WH.

4. Have any given you new priorities?

Yes. THe M is my top priority now. It was bad because I did not put it as the top priority. I will keep this priority from now on.