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Wait just a darn minute, Pep said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He didn't compare.... read more carefully </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A lonnnngggg time ago Ark^^ posted something where She mentioned Mr Ark^^ ...ummmm Hike.... We're tqalking about WAT ... a salty man '0 the sea. Pep
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Duuuh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
H
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Low...I have to agree with you...Mine was an "add on" A too. I never put H down to OM nor did he with his W. Not that that makes any more right but it was different than's Arc's description of the typical A.
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WAT's right I am talking about the brains ability to rationalize the actions of the affair...
no matter how you slice or label it...the actions of an affair are of gross disrespect to the spouse ...and even if you did not verbally demean your spouse to the OP...the actions are demeaning in and of itself...the actions are anything but of honoring and cherishing a spouse....
the brain has the greatest capacity to mold and "see" things that best create an environment in which to survive...and at times thrive...
BS ask over and over...how could their spouse have done this or that...
they done it because of the brain making allowances.....even rationalizing that everything was perfect in the marriage is rationalizing the actions....
ARK
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Hi, Although I appear to be a "new" member I did orginally post here 2 years ago (lost my password) and in the interim period have just lurked.
Finally did something about it and got myself a new password.
My husband had an affair (almost 17 yrs ago now) and 2-3 years ago we, at my insistance, revisited the whole episode. I wanted answers. Previous posts from 2 years ago will explain why.
For years, I have been haunted by his affair, and I would have to say, the most disappointing aspect, for me now, is how he has rewritten history TWICE.
Today, if anyone asked him if he had a good marriage throughout the years he would say "always", yet I still remember so vividly when he said to me 17 years ago that "we should never have had our second daughter" who was just 15 months old at the time of D Day.
I have to admit that every time there is a significant milestone in the lives of our children, a 21st (oldest daughter was 5 at the time of his affair), graduations, and many other significant events I can't help but feel sad, angry and (nasty)when I see him sitting there so full of pride with tears in his eyes. I sometimes want to yell at him "you have me to thank for you just being here".
I recently spoke to a counsellor about this, and she said that although my husband and I recovered our marriage, I will always have times of sadness because of what he did, what he said (the rewritten history) and besides, I've got a memory like an elephant.
Sad but true.
D
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Ark^^
Kudos again. I keep telling my friends and family how philosophical and right on the money your posts are. I read this and think this sounds exactly like what my H is doing with his A. However, I am trying like hell not to contact him. He has not listened to ANYTHING anyone has said (he says he listens but we all know that's not true... just fog speak to shut me up) and continues with the A and pulls farther & farther from me.
I would love to send him your post but, like I said, I am trying for no contact with him. I'm thinking of sending it to his best friend so that maybe he can use some if it when he talks to my H. Of course, my H avoids talking to him too because the friend tells him that he's got to consider the kids, etc. more than he is. He barely talks to anyone who knows what's going on except for HER because she is the only one who will agree with him. So the cycle continues!!
Suggestions to get him to wake up are always appreciated!!
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My dear ark^^, Once again your post is right on the $$. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now the next step is to find out which part of the brain where this fog resides. Then the delicate operation of removing the A tumor. First we must find an experienced physician who has had 1st hand experience in treating these A types. What is the time length and risks of this surgery? What are the benefits? What part is controlled and what is not? Identification is the beginning of finding the resolution. The 'A' tumor is not easy to locate. It travels between the mind and the heart. A few times it gets stuck in lower body parts and can even contort the head to go places where the sun don't shine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Many books have been written about the A tumor. Some have sucessfully removed it and others have it show up at a later time or realize it never was completely removed. I hope some of the newer ones can see the real picture of where their Ws resides vs the world we 'want' them to stay in. When the mind and body part company (with the mind zoning out to the outer limits of humanity), family life doesn't stand a chance. Only an A can survive in sub human levels of the noxious stench coming from the mothership. Family life survives, where there is clean and pure love coupled with honesty, selflessness and awareness of our limits and abilities. 'It is better to give than to receive' said a wise man. These words ring true in a family circle but not in the A no matter how much an OP tries to put the square A hole into the family circle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> JMHO, L.
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Hello there,
Little 'ole WS here,
The more I thought about this post the more I began to think, "what is missing here"? So here is what has been spinning in my head...
As perfect as Ark's scenario is the one part that seemed to be missing is what I will call the "human factor". In every disaster we can look back and wonder, "why didn't I or he or she see that?” We can dissect it and come up with how we should have thought or reacted. I am not trying to excuse the bad behavior; I am trying to understand how others and I were swept away in the sea of emotions that is called an affair. The first ingredient should be: that we are fallible creatures living in an imperfect world and that we are all vulnerable to failure no matter how strong or perfect a life we live we are all going to have to have some form of forgiveness bestowed upon us before we die. That forgiveness will come from several, hopefully, sources. First from those that are closest to us because we seem to find them the easiest to inflict our blunders upon. Going out from that circle we would might find our friends, then acquaintances and perhaps those who have put us on some sort of "pedestal". Then I guess we would get to strangers and those we do not even care about nor do they care about us. At the epicenter is ourselves because that is usually the one we have most difficulty in forgiving and probably understanding. Thankfully we do have one that we can turn to...hopefully when we have seen the error in our ways He does forgive and can make us whole once again.
<small>[ May 09, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Hiker ]</small>
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I'm bumping this up again... not because I wrote it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but because I think the discussion of the brains ability to do things is important... does it pigeon-hole all affairs? absolutely not... but no matter the "affair" unless a true psycho-path...there is some involvement of seperating ACTIONS from core belief and principles... there is the involvement of blocking or avoiding certain realities when involved in being and even "being" with the OP...AND the brain is the one that makes that capable... is that an excuse?...nope but BS need, when in the throes of HOW could he or she do this...see that part of the answer is that the brain itself assists in neuro impulses that assist in assisting the WS to do this or that... that WE know the brain can seperate itself in normal situations... our brains can survive the family reunion each year because we can overcome the nuero impulse to choke our brother-in-law...even though it is how we feel... and our brains can survive horrific traumas... truama victim rarely remember the exact impact of hitting the windowshield...and rarely any time in the immediate trauma unit...the brain protects and seperates those images from a patient...to keep them from reliving and experiencing it again.... It changes the real stimuli and input and processes it back to the person in a way that they can deal with it... and i would say the same thing occurs to people dealing with other horrific circumstances...war, warcamps...incarcaration..hege disasters .etc..... those same nuero transmittors...play a part in our functioning and our ability to face things...EVEN when we are the ones performing acts that in other people we would deem not so nice...our own brain can "make" them nice in our our own heads and universe.... again again again...this is not an excuse.. but there is a cascade of neuro transmitting responses...that once mindset begins to actively have (and look at how many people say I never meant to HAVE an affair..it just happened).. an affair, become grasped on to...and then the brain kicks on in an effort to "normalize" things.... and more importantly do the one thing that humans instinctively do over over.... 1. instinctively want to take the path of least resistance... 2. instictively take the path of less pain and stress.... then the affair is off and running because of the ground work laid to justify the small actions that lead to the big actions...the brain is primed and programed... affairs are monumental cascading events of this persistant conflict.... And the longer it goes on the (affair) deeper the trap... lies build on lies... lying to the Bs Lying to the Ws lie upon lie upon lie... and the brains struggle to keep them all straight.. and sometimes the WS becomes so disconnected from who they really are...that they themselves don't even reconize who they are..... the instinctive part can be overcome.....and it is a choice each time it's not overcome... (telling the truth,..choosing more deceipt each time ....etc...) again and again this is NOT to excuse... AND it is not to pigeon hole WS either... It is really a stab to answer the question How could they??? in my opinion they could partly because the brain is sooo very good at self preservation and avoiding pain/confict....as it's first choice... that it helps make it happen...and hides it from the its own self.... ARK
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Thanks ARK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I needed to read this. I really really needed this.
HINY
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right now hopeful... in my book.. YOU ROCK!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> There are times when we NEED to speak our PEACE...for no one else but ourselves... well done hopeful..hold your head high... ark
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ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> you have no idea how much that means to me. I did what I had to do. Might not be right for everyone, but for me it was what I needed to do. You gave me a tear in my eye..... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . Thanks for everything you have done to try to help my situation and me. I am not giving up yet, I am in Plan me and taking the weekend to myself for me. This was a great post for me to read on my last day of this reality I live in. So again thanks so much! HINY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
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HEY ark ,,, You wise and wonderful human ! I am not being a wise guy OK ? BUT in helping the WHY factor here , I sometimes find all this hard (about the bain thing ) ,I am being open minded and all .... BUT the reason I don't get this helping the WHY thing is this ,,,,I keep saying why didn'y my brain make me do that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Also WHY can I control my urge to KILL the other person? I mean seriously ,, I can justifie it , even if I LIE to myself ,, so am I lost on this topic ? OR should some neroligist just go out and get a pill invented to make people not LIE and AVOID ? HINY - U do ROCK ! very good reading though , I guess I am being in my silly state again ,, but at least I said, HI while I was here .
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I agree with the human capacity to rationalize, and that it is part of survival....but that applies to all our choices, including marital. People can and do often, maybe even mostly engage in a fair amount of denial, rationalizing in continuing a relationship and marrying someone that was not a good choice....
The point is ark, what you describe is indistinguishable from marital psychology as well. What there seems to be an unfortunately dearth of, is more "rational" thinking by humans period...at least in the relationship arena. Affairs and marriages are identical behaviors (in both good and bad ways), arising from the same human characteristics, the only difference is societal expectations, and the fallout of trying to conduct 2 intimate relationships simultaneously...both will suffer.
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threeis...
I laughed when I read your response...
No lie...I almost put a disclaimer saying threeis...this is not to justify behavior...
I think part of it is that the small tiny events that lead to a full blown affair..happen in small incriments that the brain can blow off at first..
oh it's just flirting..or even more interesting is the denial that there is even flirting or whatever happening.....so that these small events are already justified and the ground work is laid for the next event...the brain has already re-defined them...to wayward spouses say.
it just happened..
some woman right now just posted a sentiment...
Needless to say I have came in to close contact with him, and now find myself in an intimate relationship with him once again.
look at how the brain has this person describing their own infidelity and actions...
find myself....
seperation of action and reaction
interesting....
and perhaps some of us could kill someone...IF...we were to slowly move towards it in action...that if we were to ponder and think about it...that within a drawn out plot to kill....we could do it..
ughhh
ark....
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The point is ark, what you describe is indistinguishable from marital psychology as well. People can and do often, maybe even mostly engage in a fair amount of denial, rationalizing in continuing a relationship and marrying someone that was not a good choice.... but there is a whole new level of deciept...involving a third party in infidelity totally seperate from a marital relationship... the basis of deceipt is much greater....within infidelity...than in someone making a poor choice in marriage... infidelity is way beyond a poor choice..... it is not an uninformed decision no... people that engage in affairs...KNOW it is wrong... no matter the brains survival mechanism... and if one is connected enough to their true self to know they made a bad choice...then they should be connected enough to realize that affair is not justified by their poor choice or will fix it... Affairs and marriages are identical behaviors could not disagree more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ark
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Almost put a disclaimer in for little old ME ,,NOW NOW am I getting a rep here LOL
OK I follow alittle better ,,, BUT (LOL)
What I am saying is ,,, they are choosing to turn there brain off to whats RIGHT $ WRONG .
In reality they are so smart that they are looking for justication to do what they do . BY convinceing themself that they are taken over by this RUSH this urge this feeling ....INPULSE
Now , we all get impulse ,, I saw a guy the other day from the gym walking and the impulse was to touch his ABS LOL but hey I did not ACT ..
Wrong and Right ,,, 6 yr olds weight this out
LOL
Ok I will leave ya alone
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OH ARK, OH 3,
Guess who called? You got it, WH. You just can't believe the things he said. I think she dumped him big time, right on his a$$. He called to find out about this weekend, when he needed to be here. Nothing, absolutely nothing was said about yesterday. Not one word. He was as nice as pie. Even nicer than pie. Said we would take the kids to the fair this summer, we would get through my surgery next week, and to top it all off he is going to drive me to my hearing in June.
How do you say dumped in fogese? Only time will tell.
HINY
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Originally posted by 3isacrowd:
"OR should some neroligist just go out and get a pill invented to make people not LIE and AVOID ?"
OK all you WS's ... line up HERE for you Depakote!
If you refuse this medication...
Go to line #2 for trepination proceedure...
And if you fail that treatment.... the lobotomy line starts at the end of the hall.
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
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NURSE RATCHET IS THAT YOU??!!!!!!
Mr. Murphy
Mr. Murphy
please come to the window and get your medicine.
What I am saying is ,,, they are choosing to turn there brain off to whats RIGHT $ WRONG .
threeisa..don't you dARE change...
Ofcourse they know they are wrong...AND they are accountable....
but the little acts that led to the big whole she-bang affair...they have a difficult time seeing those acts for what they are and were...
I am not excusing ...
they know they are wrong...but the mind fights that label....
AND I don't think they turn their brain off...I think they go into overdrive....to do what they are doing....
ark
<small>[ May 21, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>
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