First I must let you know that it has taken me this long to reply because I have been sick.

That being said ....

Please don't take this post the wrong way, I don't want to come across as harsh or critical but feel I need to respond and let you know what my initial intent was.

The fact that you felt my post has a 'spin' on it just sort of backs up my belief that you are unwilling to 'own' your part in all of this.

Yes you say that you've screwed up, but it seems to me and to other respondents that this is just lip service.

Let's revisit the whole 3 some thing ...

You admit that the first suggestion of a 3some involving you, Dylan and another person came from you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, the year before I encouraged her to have a fling with a male friend of ours. Yes it was supposed to be a 3some. And maybe that is twisted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, your wife comes to you with concerns because she feels an inapropriate attraction for another male friend, she wants your help and you suggest a 3some??? This IS twisted, no maybe about it. So, forgive me for assuming that this affair that Dylan was involved not only began with your </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> consent, if not my enthusiastic agreement </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.
I'm only going by history here and for to suggest that my assuming it was outrageous just shows me once again your unwillingless to acknowledge your part in this. I did not go by info that was relayed to me by Dylan as you suggested in your email to me. She merely confirmed what I already believed to be true.

What do you think suggesting that 3some less than a year before this affair began did to the ever depleting love bank that Dylan had for you??

And now to address Dylan's need for a grown up for a husband.

You said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's all fine and dandy to tell me she needed to have a grown up for a husband... but what exactly does that mean? Step up to the plate and be a husband? I quit playing games during the evenings, I gave her my time. I held down the jobs... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may have been true for the short term just prior to the affair beginning, I am not not absolutely sure how long you held that job down. (You have said that OW stole your job, and now here are suggesting that you left it to move away ... which is it Dewt?) What I do know is you have not had steady employment in the 4+ years that I have known you as a couple, domestic help has never been one of your strong points and gaming, internet surfing and such has been your pasttime of choice. These were all things that Dylan told you she needed from you and all things you failed to provide on an ongoing basis.

Now, lets just take a break here because I don't want you to think that I am slamming you because I am not, the purpose of this post and the previous one I made to you was for you to take a good long look at the condition of your marriage to Dylan, your account level in her 'love bank', and for you to take ownership of that so you can move forward.

You said ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm confused and hurt and scared... and I'm getting lots of posts reminding me what a jerk I am, but very little in terms of advice on what to actually do... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see that at all. What I do see is a lot of people telling you to own your shortcomings ... truly own them - that doesn't mean saying "yea I messed up big time and I'm sorry now what?". It means being brutally honest with yourself about you, your marriage and where you have failed and then taking real steps to change them.

Running away with minidewt is no way to solve these things.

You asked me </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And as for the debtload... I guess she never told you about the debts I did pay. I guess she never mentioned the child tax checks that she kept to pay her rent. Nor the times I helped her financially... nor the arrangement that we had regarding the sale of said household contents for use in paying down our mutual debt... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me, when you left there was 3 months of back rent due, a $300 phone bill (the debt she said you did pay), late charges at the library and internet cafe (both places you have suggested she go to to post). She did not mention you having helped her out financially but has told me that you needed money for minidewt a couple of times and she has assisted. She has also told me part of the arrangement for selling off items and paying off the debtload involves you coming to your old home and sorting through the stuff that she has already sorted through once so as not to sell things that you don't want sold or may need to have - something you have yet to do.

So, yes I would have to agree with Peppermint and say there are 2 very different versions here and the truth probably lays someplace in between.

In a more recent post you said of Dylan
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really wish Dylan would join in on some of these conversations. She may not feel much like marriage building, but there are other issues that require her attention.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She knows that she needs to address these issues and many many more however she is using the exact same computer that you complained about in your first post regarding her affair in January - the very computer you used as an excuse not to have come here for advice and help earlier ... and yet she has posted - yes it has been sporadic - but she has posted ... and you have rarely responded to the issues she brings up or questions she asks you about your actions ...

Dewt, again be assured that I am not here to slam you nor am I here to put you down. I know that the situation you both found yourselves in was overwhelming, the finances, dealing with the school problems with minidewt, dealing with your ex and everything that was involved there, but now that you find yourself in the BS position (and I have to agree with another poster here - although I can't recall the name - you aren't comfortable in this position at all and that may be why you have had the screwups you have with Mary, your ex and the internet stuff), you have to stop whinning step up to the plate and Plan Dewt your a$$ off. That is the hand that is dealt to the BS and like it or not that is the way it is... every time you screw up majorly (the one night stand with your ex for example) most of the work you have done (getting a good job, taking care of bills, being responsible) is clean swept away. - not fair but reality.

So as I read in a response to one of your posts

Welcome to BS 101

I can't tell you enough what you need to do. Everybody here has been saying it over and over and over again.

Get counselling
Keep trying to meet Dylan's ENs
Stop these self (and marriage) destructive behaviors.

You must acknowledge things in order to change them - be honest with yourself and with us Dewt (more so yourself than us - but we can't truely help you if you aren't being completely honest with us).

Please know that I do care about YOU, your marriage, your children and Dylan and really do want what's best for all involved.

Take care and God Bless,

Hey Nic,

Thanks for your reply. I kinda was beginning to wonder... anyway, I'm glad you are feeling better.

I don't mind you coming across as harsh or critical. The Lord and everyone knows I've done things that deserve a harsh critique. I'm not afraid of that. What I do ask is that it's productive or gives me some insight. I guess I did take that first post the wrong way. It seemed like you were condoning Dylan's actions.

Your comment about her having a good and lasting frienship with OW freaked me right out. Dylan has said similar things to me. And guess what. I understand. When I first met her, I bent over backwards trying to help her out... trying to be her friend. But the way things turned out, that has become impossible. Even I, in the position I'm in now can understand what a waste that is. It's really too bad. At the end, I even had a 'heart to heart' talk with her and asked her to stop all this... and if she had listened, and backed off, and helped, (as a true friend would) to get Dylan and I back on track, things would be different. But she was in love, and all I got was fog talk.

I own so much of this. So much... and facing that, and thinking about it is why I can't hate Dylan for everything that has she has done. I contributed heavily to the sad state of our lives. When we said we'd quit smoking dope, at least half the times I was the one who cracked and bought some. When the bills didn't get paid, it was because I didn't do it either. At any point, I could have opened up SAA and said, "hey, let's fill out and sign this contract!" At any point, after our inumerable conversations, I could have been the one to act, and set and example. Do I own it all? No. But certainly half. No more, but certainly not less than half.

And this is not lip service. It's real. Yes I've screwed up. But regardless I'm not willing to give up. It has to stop. Somewhere. And until I get it right, I won't quit trying. If not for Dylan, then for mini-dewt. If not for him, then for me. Despite my failings, I'm a good person with a big heart. When I finally understand and conquer my shortcomings, I am due for an awesome life. I just hope and pray that happends before I lose her for good.

And I'm doing more than hoping and praying. I'm posting here. I'm going to counselling with a noted and reputable BEHAVIORAL psychologist. I'm doing very well in my daily life, in terms of meeting responsibilities. My child is fed. My home is clean. I'm eating, working out and getting enough sleep.

you said, "Let's revisit the whole 3 some thing ...

ok...

So, your wife comes to you with concerns because she feels an inapropriate attraction for another male friend, she wants your help and you suggest a 3some???

Yes. It is twisted. I was excited at seeing this reaction in her. I'd thought that I'd have to live my life with someone pretty much uninterested in sex. I thought it was just her personality type and that if I wanted to be with her, I'd have to accept it. To see 'desire' in her was something I'd wanted for so long that even if it was for another person, it was better than nothing. And yes. That in itself is twisted.

You have to understand that a threesome holds no great thrill for me. During my teen years I dated someone with whom it was a regular occurence. Been there done that to the point there is no big thrill. For me, it was all about seeing Dylan excited. Twisted? Yes. I know this. At the time though, I was in my own fog. Justification? No. Explanation.

It did not work out the way I fantasized it would. Hoped it would. Thought it would. It ended up being a very uncomfortable experience for me. Not the sex, but the whole thing in general. I learned my lesson. And so when this whole thing with OW started, I was quite uncomfortable with it. Again, I had some fog around me, but from very early on I had misgivings. Still I felt that there was nothing I wouldn't do for my Wife and that's where the consent came from. Twisted? Yes. Because, again, I was fogged. I didn't see the bigger issues at play.

Yes I knew our lives together weren't working. But frankly, I was right in the middle of it. I was part of the cause of it. I was too stoned much of the time to actually DO something about it.

What do you think suggesting that 3some less than a year before this affair began did to the ever depleting love bank that Dylan had for you??

You're gonna laugh your head off at this one. I though I was [i]depositing[i] love units. I thought it would be a good experience. Exciting. New. When it began to hurt a little, I was thrilled to see I had those feelings of jealousy. I thought it would be good for Dylan in that she could understand how my affair wasn't really all about an attack against her personally, but merely the selfish gratification of my own desires. Insane? Yes. Fogged? Yes. Foolish? Yes. Twisted? Oh, most definately.

As for jobs, From a few months after we sold our home in Mtl I was employed full time. The first one entailed too much travelling. I had to stay in a motel just to make it economically feasable. Then I found one close to home and kept that one until the company laid us all off at X-mas. Then, in March, I found a career potential job and stayed at it a full season. At last check I was the senior employee as this boss was reputedly very difficult to work for. I would have kept it too, had things not worked out the way they did. (and I explained the impossibility of me staying there in a previous post) To keep that job, I would have had to stay with Dylan while she continued her affair and worked with OW. Or I would have had to single parent in an impossible situation. So, while it may seem short term, (depending on how you define short term) the effort and proof of the first steps were there.

(You have said that OW stole your job, and now here are suggesting that you left it to move away ... which is it Dewt?)

I got her a job working with that company. To a significant extent I trained her and boosted her within the company. When employer remarked that she was hired as a labourer and I was teaching her too much, I argued against him. Yes, I left it to move away. And now she is in my position, as the senior employee. She did not fire me or cause me to be fired, if that's what you are asking. However, considering the circumstances, I feel that she stole my life. She has my job. She has my wife. I let her drive my van and because of the hours I worked, she could even spend more time with my son that I could. If I said she 'stole' my job (which I don't think I did) it was hurt talking. Technically it's not true.

you have not had steady employment in the 4+ years that I have known you as a couple...

I changed that.

domestic help has never been one of your strong points...

I made serious efforts to change that too. Consistent? Not really, but I did try, particularily over the last 2-3 three months before I moved out. Also, when you leave home at 6:30am and get back at 7:00pm it's difficult to get motivated to do housecleaning. That is definately an area that I could have improved on.

and gaming, internet surfing and such has been your pasttime of choice.

All that stopped after my affair, 4 years ago. Dylan will attest to that. For the past 4 years, my focus has been her. That being said, I don't think it was a particularily productive focus. We spent a lot of time together hanging out stoned. We never tackled the real issues that were slowly destroying our life together. We talked about them endlessly, but never actually DID anything about them.

I'm constantly taking a good long look at our marriage. And want to change all that. I really do. Yes, I've made some bad decisions lately. I've also taken some great steps. Ultimately, I just keep coming back to something that was posted a few months ago...

It has to stop.

The blaming. The finger pointing. The justifying. It all has to end if we are going to have even a chance of making this work. That's not to say I don't want critism, I do. But crits are different than blame. Crits can lead to insight and change. Blame does not. I accept what I know I've done wrong and seek to do differently. I search for insight into other ways I've done wrong so that I can address the issues and tackle them too...

I will seek to deposit units into her Love Bank. I don't know that it will be enough. I think she has to move forward too. Accept that the past is the past and that only by moving forward can we move forward. I do not say deny the past. I do not say forget about it. I say accept it. Learn from it. Understand it. BUT look forward at what we can DO to MAKE THIS WORK. And then, for the love of all that is holy, for the love of our son, for the love of ourselves (as a couple and as individuals) DO IT!!!

If you see anyway that I've failed to address my failings, please say so. If I seem like I'm trying to dodge issues, or divert blame, please point it out. I'm asking.

Running away with minidewt is no way to solve these things.

Leaving with minidewt was not an attempt to solve things. Point blank? Leaving was not an option because 1) Dylan was unwilling to end her affair. 2) Dylan was unwilling to focus on fixing our marriage and life together 3) I was approaching a point where I was becoming seriously non-functional. I was facing an unworkable situation and had to find a solution. NO OTHER WORKABLE SOLUTION WAS AVAILABLE. I'm not shouting at you there. I'm stressing a point.

I do need to get there to pitch in a hand with the house. I'm saving for a U-Haul and hope to be there early to mid June. Sooner if I can arrange it.

Regarding the computer... and now I'm starting to feel like I'm nitpicking... before I left, it was in pieces on the dining room table. During one of my visits, I took it to a shop for reassembly. It works now, but is still difficult and frustrating to use. Dylan has posted here mostly just to attack me, not to actually work on things, or discuss things. I understand why. This is not an easy place to come to. I don't know anything about late fees at the library and I've never actually been to the internet cafe. And when she brings up questions I do respond. I've dedicated whole threads to respond. (dewt fessing up part 1, for example) Look, she has issues about posting here. There is a lot of pain on this board and it brings back a lot for her. Her computer makes onlining very difficult and frustrating. I understand that she would not be a frequent visitor... my reaction is based on the fact that I've just wanted for so long to open a dialogue with her. This has been happening lately on the phone. And I've started to worry less about lovebusting and more about communicating, and it seems to be working. I hope it's not too late.

I know I've screwed up majorly. I'm very focused on not doing it again. As I emailed to Dylan, we have such potential for happiness and success together. We really do, but potential on it's own is just a theoretical ideal. In reality, it means nothing. We have to start doing. I'm going to do my best not to cause anymore setbacks. I'm learning. As long as Dylan and I keep talking, I will continue to learn. I really want this to work.

As for your advice:

*Get counselling - done and doing
*Keep trying to meet Dylan's ENs - As best I undertand them, I'm working on them. I understand that considering the circumstances, there are special needs. I will work on those as best she allows me and helps me to understand them. I HAVE been putting a lot of thought into the state of our union and am addressing the things I think went wrong. Marriage counselling will help there.
*Stop these self (and marriage) destructive behaviors. - I'm working on that too. Communication with Dylan is helping big time.

I appreciate you helping with this Niclole. I was surprised to hear that you haven't talked to Dylan. I hope you do get a chance to. She needs friends right now. Big time. I know you care about us. I did feel a little attacked, but that's ok. At least it's dialogue. And where there's that, there's communication and that's a door open to understanding...

best regards,

dewt

Bump for Nicole

PL,

I am curious. You keep saying </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, lets just take a break here because I don't want you to think that I am slamming you because I am not, ...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, you are slamming him, you are blaming HIM for Dylan's affair and continued affair. You are allowing Dylan to escape scrutiny. Dylan's last post was to express her deep displeasure with Dewt's being with exW, but she expressed NO remorse for being with HER lover. She even asked for advice, and got some but never responded. I presume she found the advice useless.

PL, I realize you know this situation better than I , but I have been here since before Dylan came here seeking help and I have watched this mess for a long time.

While your efforts to make Dewt accountable are reasonable, you ARE slamming him, and I doubt you are helping him because the decisions all rest in Dylan's hands. She is the one having the affair now.

But, I noticed you didn't post to her when she posted here, so where are you going with this? Just trying to protect Dylan's good name?

I think even Dewt is starting to figure out he needs to get on board or get out. Perhaps he may figure out that he needs to be more responsible for many things, I hope so. But, I know one thing he has figured out, that is he has no control of Dylan and the decisions she has made or will make. Dylan has to own a lot for the troubles in this marriage, and it seems she has not.

So perhaps you can encourage Dylan to post, and perhaps you can help her see her failures as well. There seem to be plenty to go around in this particular mess.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Dewt,

Plan A is a very difficult concept for anyone to understand. Being the BS is not fair and in turn having to do all the work in the beginning is not fair either. It is true that you begged Dylan for another chance on your knees after your initial affair 4+ years ago, but from there I think your involvment in recovery ended for the most part which is why Dylan has had such a hard time moving forward. I realize that things may have been improving by the time the OW moved along but by then it was far too little far too late (not fair but a reality).

The whole gaming thing was a big thing for Dylan, when your home was caving in around you and you weren't working instead of helping her you were online playing games (yes you were after your affair - I remember reading posts to that effect as well as having conversations with Dylan about it), perusing porn sites (maybe not a lot but you were) and joining online communities for Father's rights (a good thing in light of what was happening with your ex and your older son but it took precious time from your immediate family). Meanwhile the family you were living with and trying to hold together was coming apart at the seams.

You are both to blame for all that has gone wrong - you tried to escape from reality in your way and Dylan in hers. The points I was trying to make in all my posts was that you still don't seem to get it as far as Plan A, marital responsibility and so on. Until that really truely happens I don't see this going any further.

JL,

Yes, I realize Dylan must be held accountable for her actions and must show remorse and grief for her part in all of this. - I can say that she is remorseful and she does realize that she has made a huge mistake in carrying on her affair. My point in responding to Dewt here on the baords was to show him that he really needs to take his responsiblility for state of the marriage over the passing years. Something I really have yet to see him do fully. Everything has an excuse or a but ...
I was merely trying to post to him alone because he is the main poster here right now between the 2 of them and point him in the right direction in regards to what he can do for his part.

Ok... so what do I do?

And tell me what more I can do to take responisibility and own up to to what I have done wrong? I don't mean that in a snarky way... I feel like I've spent so much time and real effort trying to look at myself in a harsh light, and yet I'm still being told that I'm 'not getting it'.

Tell me how my efforts at recovery ended after begging on my knees? I remember accounting for every minute of every day. I did game some after, but that dropped of and for the last 2-3 years it's been very rare. In the year following D-day, I logged close to 1000 posts here on MB and long ones too... I'm not trying to dodge... yes, I could have done more... and perhaps many of my efforts were misguided, but I'm getting the impression that you think I did nothing and that is simply not true...

And yes, in some cases I will defend myself. I WILL own up to mistakes I made, but it's not fair for me to face judgement in areas where I really made an effort or accept as true statements (or assumptions) that are not true.

And in some cases, I will attempt to explain my behaviour. It is not offering excuses, or justifications, it is an effort to understand WHY so that I can avoid the same pitfalls in the future.

And your statement that until I 'get it' you don't see this going any further, that's like saying 'If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.'

What is it that I'm missing here?

I feel like there's this magical answer and it's hidden behind a curtain, and everyone can see it but me. And no-one is talking... all I'm getting is vague "own up to your part in all this statements" repeated to me over and over and I just don't get it... but it must be me, cause everyone is saying it... You, Dylan, other posters here, and I keep trying to think of new things I can take responsibility for but I must be missing something...

JL Thanks for dropping in. I appreciate your comments. As much responsibility as I take, as much as I own up too, until Dylan does the same, we haven't the faintest hope of healing our family. Still, I can only do what I can only do and I have to do it regardless of what she does or doesn't do.

Maybe you can help... what do you mean by 'on board'?

dewt

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok... so what do I do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Deut---I don't care if you've spent years here and thousands of posts, and you've begged Dylan on your knees---what you NEED to do is

establish a consistent track record of good marital behavior

And you haven't done that. You've had a affair or two, and you've just slept with your xW.

One point that I do disagree with JL on (close your ears) is easily reflected in your words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As much responsibility as I take, as much as I own up too, until Dylan does the same, we haven't the faintest hope of healing our family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Change responsibility to 'actions benefiting my marriage'.

You haven't made a ton of progress. Some---but then there are some pretty aggregious trangressions that have thrown your progress backward. Remember that in 'bad' marriages, the first order of the day is to stop lovebusting. That's what you have to be consistent with. The point that I disagree with JL about is that it does not need to be two sided to start the reconciliation process. You're the only one who needs to start. You need to start. Not to start thinking about trying. Not considering starting. You need to start on good behavior for your marriage.

Eventually, Dylan will need to do all of this, too. But she's not here asking for my advice. PL is hammering on you to be accountable for the things you can do. You can't be shifting this to "well, if Dylan's not going to try, I'm not going to try...". And that's how your attitude comes across. You need to do the work to repair your marriage. Convince your wife that it might be worth it to join you.

Hi dewt,

I decided to try one more time to explain what I've been trying to say. I haven't figured out yet if I'm not communicating it as well as I could be, or if you will only hear what you want to hear while maintaining that you "don't understand". I want you to also know that I am posting to you as much for myself as I am for you, dylan, and your boys--probably more for myself at this point. If you have a problem with it not being all about you--and only you--then please stop reading now.

First a note to JL: I respect you more than you will ever know, and you are one of the people here who I look up the posts of, old and new, when I need focusing, a 2x4, and/or comfort during the most difficult times. But I disagree with you on what you posted to PL:
"While your efforts to make Dewt accountable are reasonable, you ARE slamming him, and I doubt you are helping him because the decisions all rest in Dylan's hands."

ALL the decisions do not rest in the Wayward's hands. There are many things that rest in the Betrayed's hands--and it is from that perspective that BSs usually get advice of what to do. What makes dewt the "special case" that it's all his Wayward's fault that he cannot implement and maintain a good Plan A while the affair is continuing? I've never seen other Betrayeds--Betrayeds who HAVE a marriage license and who have NOT had affairs of their own while the Wayward's affair is continuing--let off the hook like this. I am at a loss trying to figure out what is "special" or "different" in dewt's case. Is it simply because both parties were/are known here?

dewt, part of recovery after an affair is fixing the "state of the marriage" issues that were present when the affair happened. You admitted you didn't do that and, like Harley says, it kept conditions ripe for another affair--which in many cases is by the previously betrayed spouse. It's in the FREE info pages of this website. How did you miss that how many years ago, and why are you whining about it now? You were FOREWARNED, and yet you did not heed Harley's advice. Whose responsibility is that--50% yours and 50% your partner's. What are you willing to do about YOUR 50% now--from the position of the Betrayed instead of the Betrayer?

dewt, if you are still hellbent on wanting to do this from the position of the Betrayer (your two affairs), try it instead from the position of your biggest betrayal IMHO--refusing to do the necessary recovery work on the "state of the marriage" issues. And keep in mind that betrayal continued for longer than a few months.

Btw, if dylan started a thread and asked for ideas and support of what to do and where to start, I would help her if I thought I could. I wouldn't support her blaming you 100% and would try to help her to focus on her 50%. I will not support you blaming her 100%, and if I post to you again it will be because I think there is still hope that you will do YOUR recovery work regardless of what she is doing or not doing.

It seems that the door is still open for rebuilding this relationship, even though you have tried to shut that door and then tried to slam the door shut. What are you going to do with the opportunity that is still there?

Take care dewt--you have two boys who need a good father even if the relationship does not get rebuilt.

K,

Perhaps we do disagree and perhaps not. My problem with PL's posts was that she is plowing OLD ground, issues that seem to have been resolved years ago.

I have no problem with posts to Dewt explaining and pointing out his current failings. He needs guidance of that there is no mistake. And yes he and only he can end the self-destructive and marriage destructive behaviors.

I think Dewt might even understand and acknowledge that his actions in the past led to a very poor marriage situation, but they don't excuse the A of Dylan.

So do we disagree? I am not so sure. But, I do feel sure that beating someone up about OLD wounds is not addressing the very real issues that exist with Dewt's decision making today. That is where this bothers me.

He seems to fix something such as his gaming, or even ending his affair, and then move on to something else that doesn't help the marriage. It seems to me it is the decision making, the focus, the deferred gratification aspects of his decision making that needs to be addressed and changed.

Not excessive gaming that apprently ended years ago. I think here is where you, PL, and others can help him. Someone has to teach him how to plan, and execute the plan. Maybe no one has ever put it in these terms for him, but he needs to plan, detailed planning where each day is addressed, each goal spelled out, the reward for each goal spelled out, the consequences for not reaching the goal spelled out.

In short he needs a plan for his life, other than "I just want to be happy."

That is why I felt compelled to comment on PL's posts. She seems to know a lot about these two, and therefore she could be the most help, but 2x4's on ancient history is just a 2x4 not an educational tool.

Hopefully, she will post and work with him. Hopefully, he can seek out people where he lives and perhaps goes to church to talk to and mentor him. Hopefully, if he does these things he will develop a different perspective on life, one that makes him happy and mini-dewt a well developed child.

As for Dylan, well she must address many issues as well or the marriage is gone no matter what Dewt does. I think that is a given that is ignored right now.

Anyway, I have said my piece.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for Dylan, well she must address many issues as well or the marriage is gone no matter what Dewt does. I think that is a given that is ignored right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it's definitely a given. I don't think it's ignored---she just isn't actively participating here, so there's very little to do. I'm also a firm believer in these beginning steps of reconciliation being a '1-person' plan---it's not necessary to have the couple working together in unison. That'll happen later, if they're successful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, I have said my piece. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and homonyms... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have a great weekend, old friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL,

Thanks for your input here, I really do understand what you are saying about bringing up old issues. I wouldn't bring them up if I didn't believe they warranted mentioning. I have spoken with Dylan and I believe these issues are still very important to her. (perhaps it is the whole 3 sides of the the truth thingy ... her side, his side and the actual honest to goodness truth).

I brought these issues up because I think they are important to Dylan and they may be the changes that she needs to see on a consistant basis for her to feel that Dewt is really serious about the marriage and her feelings. (Isn't that what we tell all BS's to do? - Find out what their WS's needs are and meet them).

I'm not sure what to believe as far as these issues go. Dewt says the gaming had stopped years ago and he has been working steadily for at least 2 years now. Dylan tells me that the gaming was going on the whole entire time and never really let up and that in the past 2 years Dewt has had 6 different employers. This tells me this is not ancient history - at least not in Dylan's eyes - and as a BS it is Dewt's "job" to acknowledge it, change it and move on (if he wants to stay married that is).

The other issue about the whole 3 some thing I felt needed to be looked into. Dewt, suggested a 3some with Dylan, himself and another man (whom Dylan told me she was attracted to, went to Dewt with her feelings and that was the kind of help he offered her). This happened less than a year ago, so it was less than 3 months before the affair with the OW began... now I am not excusing Dylan for her actions but you can see that this may have caused some confussion to her when she found herself attracted to the OW - went to her husband again and was given an OK to begin the process to begin something that may turn into the 3 some that he had suggested earlier??

Yes, Dylan should be held accountable for her actions, but it is not Dylan that is posting here asking for advice. It is Dewt.

It's hard for me to post advice to Dewt when he keeps denying having a problem with the issues that Dylan tells me are the issues. (Again the 3 sides thing).

I think Dewt, current screw ups are in a sense entangled in his lack of accountability to these past issues (if that makes any sense at all).

Just a little side note for Dewt ...

I am cheering for you and your marriage ... and I do realize that as peppermint said to you, yours and Dylan's versions of everything that has transpired are soooo different that it is difficult for me to post advice as for what you can and should do. I bring up the issues of gaming (computer use in general and video games), employment, domestic help and the way in which you deal with your ex because I know that these are key issues to Dlyan and the things that she needs to see consistant change in before she can say "yes, he is working on himself, our marriage and our relationship". That is all.

Thanks for posting Nicole and others...

I just popped in to check, but it is too late to really get into it.. so I will come back tomorrow after Mini has gone to bed.

dewt