LNH,

I posted to your other tread, but my comment on Plan B--don't do it until you're ready. If you're sure you're not ready and you try, you may blow it like I did. I wasn't ready. I still had too much love left.

However, don't wait TOO long. As you Plan A with him acting selfish and immature, it will drain your love. If you start feeling like you'd like to just get out, you better jump to Plan B immediately.

I'm sort of stuck now. I ended up waiting and now I'm not sure I care if WH comes back. Also, what Cherished wrote about renters and freeloaders hits home. My WH, while he was my life, was a definite freeloader. It has been brought to my attention by many people (including the IC that we both saw) that he is very immature and extremely self-centered. All things must revolve around him or benefit him or he wants nothing to do with them, and has no qualms about letting others know that.

It is rare for him to take the blame for anything. He shifts the blame for why he's angry, why he drinks, why he ran into the car in front of him, and why he is having the A to other people. It frustrates me when he isn't willing to "own" his behavior.

I agree with Cherished that the only way to make these people grow up is probably to set down rules of what it's going to take. If you Plan A forever, they'll just take advantage of you forever.

Lot's of rambling. Probably not much advice. I guess, I'm just saying I understand, and I believe you will feel better in time. Keep taking it day by day.

LL

LL, your advice is very valuble. I know what you mean that he is taking advantage of me. That wass how I felt, but I didn't know how to deal with it. I am ready for Plan B and not ready. I will not make any decision now. I will see whar Steve has to say.

We also have another lesson time to go. i don't know what his reaction will be. We also have to decipline DS to. Please check my other thread about S and add comments. Hugs.

Lostnhurt, I finished the transcript of the Renter/Freeloader relationship and put it on its own thread so that I wouldn't clutter up yours. Thinking like a Renter, you may want to convince your Freeloader husband to go through the program. Thinking like a Freeloader, he may think that the very fact that the program is necessary means that the marriage is over. He shouldn't have to change for you. There's nothing wrong with him. He just hasn't found the right woman. There is an underlying assumption to a Freeloader's view that he shouldn't have to change. You can sacrifice all you want and it makes no difference to him. You can try to convince him all you want and it doesn't matter.

Hope this helps --

Cherished

One more P.S. It doesn't matter if he is still in the A or not. What you see is enough to prove that he is willing to disregard your feelings and do what he pleases.

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

LNH,

I did read your other post about your S's discipline issues and my heart goes out to you. He sounds like he's acting out and I'm sure the things going on in his life right now are difficult for him.

I didn't feel qualified to offer any advice because I struggle frequently with my DD's behavior. She's had issues before this A started (and now looking back, I'm sure the chaos of the house when WH was drinking off and on didn't help).

I'm hoping all the people that have posted advice to me for DD will see your thread and give you some wonderful ideas as well.

LL

just checking in w/you today and see how you're doing? keep your chin up, you are capable of more than you ever dreamed. prayers to you, RR

Last night I didn't get home till 9pm. WH took care of the kids, it seemed things were little bit in order. Kids did their homework and dinner was waiting for me. Except that Wh was withdraw, when he saw me came home, he head straight to the coputer. I was left to deal with everything. Then D asked him whether she can sit her friend's dog for next week. He said ask mommmy. She turned around to ask me. I told her I have to discuss with dad. She said he told me to ask you. I said dad want to respect mommy's opinion, that is why. When we discuss it, we will let you know.

I took very short time to finish my dinner and clean up, check their homeworks, and had them brush their teeth to go to bed. But S has to come down to talk about his action. When they were brushing their teeth, I talked quickly with WH.

First about the dog, he said a week seems too long, but it is hard to refuse her, how about weekends. I said good idea, I thought a week is too long, but couldn't come up with a better idea than rejecting her. Bingo, POJA. It ended up her friends said dogsitting was not needed when I told D about our decision. But we were all happy about the solution.

Then we talked about S's consequences. He said that there is not much to take a way from him, he has no computer game, not much TV watching, going outside to play is necessary for him. He sort of complaining about no Cable. I told him that I am thinking to put the cable back, but waiting for promotion, then I will discuss with him. he said that you don't need to rush about that, they don't need the cable, their study is more important. I told him that I was thinking to change the TV in kitchen too, it is very old, we bought it used when we first got married. He said that you can decide. So we came back the subject about S's consequence. About his lying(he didn't tell me the truth until the teacher told me), he can not watch TV for a week. Then he has to write a paragraph to appolozgize to the girls and a list of 10 positive things to do. He has to read it to the girls during recess today.
When S heard about these, he was so angry and cried. He said that I am mean to him. I told him that these are mom and dad's decision and you have to take consequence for what you did. if you don't want to have these consequence, then don't do bad thing again. I told him that it is ok for him to feel bad, but mom and dad love him, what we do is tough love. I hope he understands, of course i am talking to WH too.

After S went to bed, I quickly came down and got the CD of lessons out. We just sit there listened, this time he didn't whine. But the assigment was to read the book HNHN the frist 2 chapters, but he doesn't want to, just kept listening. Until, it said you need to stop here to do something else. I asked him to read the book with me, he just acted like a little kid who doesn't want to work, but don't know how to say no. So finally I said, why don't you turn the computer off, we will read it upstairs. He did. Praise GOD, it is not like the old him. So I went upstairs first, but for a while, he was not up yet, well, he was there doing dishes. i said I can do it tomorrow. He said it is not a hard task, just putting the dishes to dish washer and turn it on, you were not doing it, I will do.(????) Finally he got up, while he was brushing his teeth, I was praying so hard that to have him stay and read the book. When his done, he said he want to go to bed in the guest room, he was too tired. I said how about the reading. He look so reluctant, I said how about i read it too you, you just listen. He said ok. I read the first chapter of HNHN which is about the affair. I really praise GOD, I couldn't do it myself.

This morning, I told him that I was listening a book on the tape THE four agreement, a practical Guide for personal Freedom. I said that it is a good one, do you want to listen? He said what is it? I knew he is afraid that it is marriage thing again. But I said it is about personal growth. I already listened to the first tape and listening the 2nd one. He took the tape. Whehter he listens in the car, I don't know, but at leat he didn't refuse. I just feel so amazing. I am not overly enthusiastic, I just see a little bit attitude change. I keep prasing GOD.


Now I am listening to the message about Obediance. It is so good, for some moment I want to cry, not the sad one, but some movement.

We will talk to SH at 12 ET. He will talk first half hr, I will be the 2nd half. He will call Sh from work. Please pray for us to have good talk. Like RR suggest, I have to write down the the things I want to talk first.

okay sweetie, definite big time prayers coming your way for your session today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

RR, can you give me some idea what to ask SH? I am very confused myself, it maybe easier for someone else to see it clearly.

well i will try, I feel like you are doing such a good job that you are so much more of an expert then i am. just w/reading some of the things that you say to your H in response to what he says or does is just amazing. it's great that you can think on your feet. but anyway, you've been following how my sessions are going so far so these are some of the things that i'm going to ask next week.

how should i act? like a friend, loving wife, hard to get-my concern is acting too eager

should i share some of the insights and changes that i've had? if so, how?

are there any other books that SH would recommend?

what to say when my H says things like "i was just so unhappy for so long and i gave you years to change and this is what it took." or "i just can't go back" or "you'll meet someone else."

how should i approach the subject of another session w/SH now that my H know it's w/MB? (my initial approach was that the counseling was to help me and that it would mean a lot to me if SH could get his perspective to help me but know that he knows it's MB and has talked to SH once, what can i say or when should i say to see if he would talk to him again).

how do i handle the upcoming special occasions? anniversary next month, H's bday in july, he will be graduating from college this year.

the other things i have written down are really specific to my situation. but if i were you i would want to ask SH about how to act or what to say when your H doesn't want to do the lessons or is dragging his feet or is continuing to come home late or not at all. but honestly, i think you are doing such a good job already. i guess my concern now would be after your H talks to SH today and SH gets his perspective then what? SH will be able to tell you just how much you should initiate or push things, does that make sense? he might tell you to be extremely cautious when it comes to asking your H to participate in the lessons, i don't know, maybe he'll just keep telling you to do what you're doing.

ask SH how much you are enabling your H to continue his behavior and if you are still on the right track w/plan A based on his discussion w/your H today. i would ask SH to be specific w/you and even ask him to tell you exactly what to say. now again, these are just my opinions and suggestions and i'm just basing these on my interactions w/SH and what i've read on the forums. i could totally be off base. but i think if Sh can be specific w/you that will help you a lot. just one quick example, say for instance your H is out all night and doesn't come home until 2 am, would leaving a note in a place where he would see it be a good idea that just simply says "hope you had a good night and thank you for doing the dishes, see you tomorrow, lostnhurt." nothing mushy, but something caring and appreciative and hopeful for the future.

i hope this gives you some ideas, i'm just kind of pulling things out of the air. just continue to remind yourself not to have expectations of your H and sometimes expect the worse that way you will always be prepared. hugs and prayers to you, RR

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

RR, you are such a good friend. Thank you so much. So are good one to ask, I will put them in my list.

Just called Wh and remind him to talk to Sh. He said he forgot the phone #, so I e-mail it to him. I have to pray now.

Wh called and told me that SH was not there. You know how SH is running late usually. He was using that as excuses for not talking to him.

Just got a hold of SH now and gve him WH's cell number, I hope that they talk. I will be home waiting for Sh to call back. Please pray for us.

lostnhurt I will give you my take on Plan B. I really didn't want to go into Plan B either, but after Jennifer explained to me that I could do plan A but the blatent disrespecting of my feelings being done by my W by living with OM and all the LB'ing I was doing I would be better off in Plan B. I know my first thoughts were how will my W know that I care about her if I don't talk to her. Then after I wrote my Plan B letter (which Jennifer said was a great one) I thought that if my W can't see that I care for her after I poured my heart and soul into that letter, then there is something really wrong with her. The first week is really hard because there are so many thoughts running through your head. The second week gets better and the third week I was actually getting back to being my old self. My wife sent me an email into week 3 saying she wanted to talk, it was about one of those easy DV places on line. Anyways my wife broke my Plan B for me when she came in our house on her own and disreguarded my boundries. So to make a long story short I think that my W wanted to see me, the paper she had in her hands she could have easily sent me the link via email, mailed it to me, or just dropped it off in the mailbox when she came to pick up her mail. After contact I went right back to square one but it only takes a couple of days to get over that as opposed to the three weeks it took to get to that point. Hang in there lnh.

lostnhurt,


Inthe mist of this storm in your life ... keep this promise for you ...

"For I know the plans I have for you,'declares the LORD,' plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plan to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11.

As painful as my life experience it was, I know that I will have a fullfiling M with my next mate and a fullfiling R with HIM.
-rh-

great verse RH, thanks a lot for sharing that, it's amazing how these verses mean different things at certain times in our lives.

lost,
i hear what you're saying about SH running behind, i understand that every call is important, but at the same time if you are a BS who's spouse is trying to call SH and can't because he's running behind, it gets extremely anxious and nerve racking and i wish there was a better solution to this. SH was running so far behind the last week that i had to reschedule. i think this is disrespectful in a way. i'm not rying to lessen anything someone is going through but we all need to keep this in mind when we talk to SH and keep our eye on the clock and i think SH needs to at some times needs to really keep people to the time limit. if he can't do this then he needs to stop having appointment so close together.

anyway, that's a totally different subject along w/the cost of the counseling session. i sure pray that your H ended up talking to SH and that you were able to get some clarity from your session w/SH. prayers to you, your friend, RR

RH, thanks for sharing the wisdom from above.

RR and my other friends, thank you for all the prayers.

Sh was late to call WH. But he did talk to him, the conversation ended short b/c WhH had a meeting, and the boss was there. So SH called me back. Here is what his advice:

1, Keeping doing what I've been doing. B/c whatever I was doing, it made significant progress. I was a little bit doubt about it. But he said, look, your WH turned from an absolutely unwilling person, to talkingto SH, and attended the MBW. Sitting there for 10 hr., and did the lessons, even unwillingly. I need to give him credit and time to digest.

2. I have to be very careful. Not to push him.

3. Be very caustious for Plan B, b/c we don't know what it is going on with him. We can not make assumption. He said, maybe he was sitting in a bench over night, or in a bar, or casino, or A. Who knows. But have to find out what it is first. Then we talked about whether we need to find out. He said that if he continues disappearing like this for couple more weeks, it maybe time. Then to decide for Plan B or not.

He told me that as long as Wh listening to the CD, he will be exposed to the ideas, seeds are planted. It takes time to grow. In terms of meeting his need, I need to be creative b/c he is not letting me.

After finished talking to SH, it was almost 2pm. My father had an appointment with Dr. at 2. SO I rushed to his apt. It was 2:30 when we wer in Dr. office. We waited for 2 hrs. to be seen. So I called WH and asked him whether he can go home to take care of the kids. He said ok. But when we got out of the Dr. office at about 5:15pm, he called. he said his boss asked him to the bar, he can not refuse. Do I believe that? No. But I said ok. But he has to send the kids to Chinese school tomorrow, b/c I have to teach. He said he will be home tonight. It is 10:20pm, where is he? I don't know. I don't care.

I had to take my father to the pharmacy. He doen't drive and doesn't speak English. It took me more than an hours to come back home for a 25 min. drive in regular traffic. By the time I was home, it was almost 7pm. I was exauhsted. Then I cooked dinner and had the kids take the bath. Then they had to finish their Chinese home work. I was so mad at WH. Those home work were from the week I went to cruise. Last week we went to MBW, they even didn't get the hwk. So that means the whole week when I was out, he just took them to Chinese school, but didn't have them to do the home work. This week, I work 3 evening and came home at 9pm. He didn't help them to do anything. So the kids only worked on Wed, and tonight. They couldn't finish.

Now I think that I will continue a little bit long on Plan A. Whenever it is time to Plan B, I will go for it. SH said that Plan B is not to punish WH, it is to protect myself. If I can do Plan A longer, I should.

LNH,

I read your post. I'm too tired to write my normal novel to you. I'm eating a late dinner (thank you "carry-out") and am going to bed early for me.

You are a very strong woman (and a very dedicated mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). I agree with SH. Give it a couple weeks and see if things improve or if they just stay the same and then make your decision. I think there is still a lot of love left in you for your WH, and based on my own experience, if you still have very strong feelings for your WH, it is very hard to do Plan B without caving in if they call you all the time.

LL

I am extremely weak now, physically and mentally. He didn't come home now since last night, no phone call. I couldn't sleep again. The anxiety level was so high. I kept praying and reading the Bible whole night.

Now I have to go teaching. Class starts at 8am, he is still not home. he said he would take the kids, where is he? DO I just leave?

I paged him. He just call back and told me he is coming. I was so mad, but didn't LB. I told him I am very hurt by his act. He said why do I have to report you? I said you are still my husband, it is very inconsiderate to be like this. He said he just want to be away.

I cried so hard on the phone. DId I LB? He said we will talk this afternoon.

Lostnhurt -

Sorry you had such a miserable night. You are right, it was very inconsiderate of your H. He is still in the fog, and I think still addicted to OW.

I think I would start writing Plan B letter. Don't look at it as a failure, just the next step in saving your marriage. Try to time it right, where it will be convenient for you. That way you will get off to a good Plan B start.

Just start working on a letter, and then bide your time to give it to him. Many WS's will continue the affair in Plan A. But Plan B wakes them up.

It also gives you peace and comfort.

You are not LB'ng at all.

Does your WH acknowledge your plan A ?
Acknowledge that you are changed ?

-rh-