Maybe this is old news for some here, but I just read this great MB article:

But no one told me!

Our marriage had been going downhill for a long time prior to my affair. I had repeated expressed my unhappiness and was dismissed.

After the affair was discovered, some of my wife's first words were "How could you? We had a such great marriage!"

As the article says, some "food for thought".

Low

Orbit

I believe you.

Pep

I read this article a few times over the past few years. Never hurts to read it again!

I read it this time with a totally different point of view than I've had before.

How did this article help you? Did it help your wife? Did it help your marriage? If so, how?

I suppose I was prompted to post this because I'm seeing a rash of recent posts by BSs that insist their marriage was fine.

If my wife had held onto that stance, we wouldn't have the relationship we have today. True, we've had rough couple of weeks, but we're getting through that because we've learned to "hear" each other. I sometime get frustrated when she falls into old habits as I'm sure she does with me. But my point, if I have one, is that we stopped defending the old marriage so that we can work on the new.

There is no doubt. Even with 20-somethin years and two kids behind us, that relationship is past. There is no "getting it back" or being "the way we were". There is only the continuous effort of making our life and our love the way we want it to be.

Low

Orbit,

I hate to call you Low because, although you might feel that way(?), you have recognized that you & your W could have a wonderful M with hard work & I applaud you for your efforts. I totally agree with you. From what I see, majority of the people are so into the "blame game" that they cannot see how they "pushed" their S away from their actions or their words. Words can do so much damage to someone's self-esteem & can cause so much pain. BS's should really understand this because of the things that are being said to them now by their WS. What about the things they said during the course of their M that hurt their S? Regardless if the words were of a lesser degree, they still hurt. Like they say, the tongue is a very powerful weapon.

I know in my case, in the heat of an argument or when he totally irked me sometimes, I would say things like, Why did I ever marry you to begin with? or You're such a...... After a while, my H "learned" to be the person I wanted him to be & in the process did not like who he became. He was married to a "control freak" & as long as he just went along with whatever I said, there would be no waves. (This is what was going on in HIS mind, I never directly told him that) In the process, I thought everything was "just fine" because we didn't argue, he wasn't "working on my nerves" and I was usually smiling. Yes, I was happy, but he wasn't. He became someone he never thought he would become. In order to make me happy, he changed into a, for lack of better words, "wimp". And in his own way, he was trying to tell me that, but I did not "hear" him.

When he met the OW, he was his "true" self around her. She liked him just the way he was & never tried to change him so he liked that. After he left, I took a long look at myself & what I had done to cause the M to go astray & I learned quite a bit about myself. I would not want to be married to me either. With the help of God, & the prayer warriors on the MB forum, I am changing into a better person, my H took notice & now I can give him what he truly wants from a W & he can give me what I truly want from a H & it makes our recovery that much more meaningful.

We have begun a "new" M & put away the "old". I had asked my H one evening if he thought things were "getting back to normal" somewhat around here, & his response was, I don't want "normal". "Normal" is the old M, I think what we have is better than "normal". This means quite a lot to me & shows me how much he's grown through all this as well.

God's blessings be upon you,

ST

Low, I read the article and understand it. I admit that I am partially responsible for a bad M. I want to save my M by working hard. But my WH is not willing.

Lots of advices here given me that I should Plan B him for this bad M and his thoughtless behavior. I was told that I had put up enough. I don't knwo which way I should go. I actually want to stay in plan A, but I also know that plan B will work somehow. i am just confused.

hi lnh,

I'm sorry your H has not been responsive. It sounds like you've given it a good effort.

How long have you been in Plan A? If you really want to stay there, then do. No one but you can know if you've had enough. Others can think what they want. It's not their marriage.

From what I can gather, you should be going to Plan B only if you feel your own love bank is becoming too depleted to ever continue working on the marriage. NOT to punish him for bad behavior.

There have been many good BS models of Plan A here. WAT, 2long, and Mortarman come to mind.

Anyone willing to to help lnh with trying to decide if she's ready for plan B?

Low

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Low,

Thank you for your advice. But even Dr. Harley said that his thoughtless should not be tolerated. How do i get those who mentioned for advice?

LowOrbit, I just wanted to comment on the premise of that article, and the fact that an A can happen in pretty good Ms. When I say my H and I were in a very close place in August 2002, we really were, and had been for quite a while. Then in late August my 15 yr. old nephew died, and that was the start of a very difficult year.

Steve Harley, as an assignment, asked my H to tell me why the A happened. How did he fail to protect his weaknesses? OMG, how did he not fail to protect them? In the book "After the Affair" there is a section titled "Tracing the Timeline: Seeing How Critical Life Events At The Time Of The Affair May Have Knocked You Off Balance." This paragraph really sums it up: "These critical life events may make you, the hurt partner, difficult to live with, and push your partner further away. They may make you, the unfaithful partner, more needy and unstable, more vulnerable to tempation. Your affair may be an attempt to recover from an external crisis that undermines your sense of self, and therefore may have more to do with what's happening inside you than with any specific problem in your relationship."

The author then talks about common stressors that can throw someone into an A. We had almost every one on the list: Illness, deaths, a shift in status, and personal failure. We experienced 5 deaths last year. H's dad was sick for months before he died. My dad was living at home, but in terrible shape. I was so busy with my dying dad, I wasn't able to totally be there when H's dad died. I was still under the impression that we were close and could support one another. Enter the horny bi***, his office manager. While I was dealing with the dying dad, she was coming on to H. Being his great friend, admiring him, and letting him know she was there to provide sex. Oh, forgot to mention H's sexual dysfunction which screwed up our sex life. He got that straightened out just in time for OW. He connected his dysfunction to me, and forgot it was the various meds he had been on. Within about a month of his dad's death he was starting the EA. Throughout this I was reaching out to him because I felt the increasing withdrawal. He slammed the door in my face.

I could go on and on. OW was after him and he made every mistake in not protecting himself. I have learned so much from this. Basically you don't have to be in a troubled M to have this happen. That's what causes me the most sadness. H told me just the other day that he now realizes we did have a good M. He totally had forgotten.

Sorry, this was so long. Just wanted to let people know that life events can really screw people up. CV

Hi CV,

You make a lot of good points. The goodness or badness of the relationship is entirely relative. It's always somewhere on that sliding scale between bliss and hades.

Looking at it from your point of view, I'd have to agree that my marriage wasn't "bad" by any stretch of the imagination. I had a few of those life events as well.

But why is it that some marriages weather these life events and come out stronger for it and some don't?

I think it has to do with how well you've built and maintained your relationship to start with. We all do the best we know how to. Sometimes the strength of our handiwork isn't apparent until we subject it to the storm. We may honestly not realize that our foundations were weak until they collapse.

I think even a relationship that both perceive as "good" may still have significant faults that make it vulnerable.

After the storm washes the house off it's foundation, we can choose to blame the "storms" (life events, predatory OP) or we can look critically at the foundations to see how we can strengthen them against these storms in the future.

I'd encourage couples to take the latter path. My wife and I did and are happier and more confident for it. We've taken action to ensure that we communicate MORE instead of LESS during stressful times. We don't assume that we'll automatically know how to support each other in times of stress. We have become very open about telling each other when we feel vulnerable and what we need from each other to feel secure. This is what I mean by building a stronger foundation.

Low

Low, your question of why do some Ms weather the storms and some don't is a good one. Before I say what I'm going to say next, let me stress it is not meant to be condescending. I feel like I have been more evolved about relationship issues than H. He has realized that also. Last year when I was dealing with my dad, trying to finish my internship, be there for kids who had too many losses, and be there for H I was stretched to the max. I decided I needed to return to therapy to help me balance this life better so I could be there for H and my boys. What did H do? He started his EA.

In the beginning of finding out about the A I went over and over in my mind what I could have done differently. I saw H dismantling our M. I saw him crossing bounderies with OW and told him every time I was concerned. I tried to reach out to him so many times. And I did have the dying dad to deal with. My shrink told me sometimes you do everthing you can do and it isn't enough. The bottom line is we can't control another person. I think Steve Harley's explanation of why an A can happen really fits here, "a failure to protect your weaknesses." H didn't even know what his were, and OW knew exactly how to fill those needs. And I was just this trusting chump! Plus H's dad's death was a trigger. Added to that the sexual dysfunction. I am convinced that if our sex life was the way it used to be OW would not have had a chance. But H's ego was low, he associated me with the problem, and I couldn't meet his ENs properly. What a temptation to have a woman 20 yrs. younger than you meet your ENs and show H he had his sexual functioning back. I feel like I didn't have a chance.

I will take responsibility for any problems in our M previous to the year from hell. However, H had the A. He chose to deal with his feelings of pain by that escape. I wish he would have turned towards me as I tried to turn towards him. So maybe the reason some Ms don't weather the storm has to do with one or both spouses unresolved issues. If you're not aware, how can you make the right choices?

A change in topic. I wrote a post last week directed to recovered WSs such as yourself. I didn't get any response. If I bump it up I'd appreciate your response. I respect your opinion. Thanks, and I'm glad you and your W have a stronger M now. CV

I see your point now.

You're right. What can you do when you're doing the best you think you can and your spouse has the A anyway?

But I think from own admission, things were not so great in your marriage, but were as good as they could be given the circumstances. That's alot different than insisting things really were great.

There is no excuse for the affair. Please don't think I'm trying to justify it. My point is that the underlying problems are often hidden or denied. Just because the BS didn't know about them doesn't mean the marriage was actually in good shape. And you've already pointed out that what both the BS and WS think is good, might not be good enough.

Rebuilding the marriage should never be about assigning blame or apportioning responsibility for the condition of the marriage.

It SHOULD be about trying to identify the issues that undermined the relationship and deal with them effectively. Sometimes these issues existed unbeknownst to the BS and they surface during rebuilding. In this case, the WS is NOT rewriting history...they want to talk about things they didn't feel like they could before.

CV, I'll look for your other post.

Low

Low, hope you don't mind me keeping this discussion going, but I guess I don't feel done yet with this topic.

My H was diagnosed with Hepatitis C in 1990. 1989 and 1990 was another year plus from hell. I won't even go into all of that. H got great results from the drug treatment which was actually a double blind study. Hep C wasn't even named at that time. In the late 90s we discovered the virus was back strong in his body. Sorry if you read my posts about this before. Anyway H went into a deep depression, withdrew from me, and basically had an A with his classical guitar. No joke! When I couldn't take it any more I said it's therapy or we have to end. I couldn't stand the lonliness anymore. We had a year and a half of MC, and really resolved many unresolved issues. We learned how to communicate better, and H learned it was OK to have conflict in a M.

Except for H's terrible time dealing with crisis situations, we had a pretty good M, and were always able to come through the crises. After the MC we had a really good M. Unfortunately the depression, SSRIs to treat the depression, and BP meds screwed up our sex life. In August 2002 we went away together for a week and had the greatest time. There was a deep love between us, and we both wanted to get help for the sex issues. I truly would never in a million years, after everything we had been through & the mc, would have imagined an A could have happened. I thought H could tell me anything. What I didn't realize is the following. H's issues with his dad, who abused him as a boy and teenager, would rear its ugly face after his dad died. Even though I saw bounderies being crossed with H and OW, I was too trusting. It's difficult for me to imagine that OW actively pursued H, especially when she knew the year we were having. And I truly believed that H would tell me if he was having an A. I've read some of John's posts. The man who stopped the A before it happened and confided in his W. I realize that H was too afraid to tell me he was developing feelings for OW. He tried to deal with it on his own. Probably classic WS behavior. Finally, sometimes life circumstances just prevent us from meeting ENs. If you love each other hopefully you can give each other a break. H couldn't give me a break. He resented my dad, who he loved, and assumed I didn't love him.

I guess I'm saying that a couple can be in a good M and have this happen. I felt secure in everything we had learned from MC, and just our life experiences. When the A began H reverted right back to pre-MC behavior. Then the rewriting history began. Then it was too late. I also forgot to mention that there is a history of As in Hs family. Put it this way. If I would have had an A I wouldn't have felt bad around them.

I think at times H and I have a shot at recovering from this. I'll also admit that times like now I so can't believe he chose the path of an A that I wonder if it's possible to recover. Very strange! It's good to see couples can recover and be stronger. If I decide to bump that post I'll pick your brain some more, OK? Sorry for this new long post. I guess I had the need to further tell our story. CV

Wow. Fascinating thread.

I agree with CV; sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that trigger an affair, and the BS can do nothing to stop it.

In fact, that's been The One Thing our MC has hammered into me: YOU COULD HAVE BEEN PERFECT, AND THIS STILL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

Take this analogy, for example. When I was young, I got my immunizations -- in this case, healthy does of love and acceptance. My husband did not. So when life started throwing storms in our path, and we both got beatend and bruised by the debris, my system was better at fighting off disease. FWH didn't have that going for him. He was infected with a virus that took him down.

Does that make sense?

Wish I had more time to explain, but he just got home from a two-day business trip. Time to make up for lost nights away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll be happy to follow-up tomorrow.

BH03

Broken, what a great analogy about the immunizations! My childhood wasn't the greatest. For various reasons I was a neglected kid and very lonely. When H was in his A I recognized that the little girl in me was back full force because it was such a repeat of childhood. At least I could understand that. As a girl I also knew I was loved. H on the other hand always felt on the outside, had some very traumatic experiences with his dad, and I don't think ever felt loved and accepted.

In our M we were always able to weather the storms. I would say I probably carried us way too much until we got that great MC in the late 90s. The major difference with this storm was OW. The terrible life events set the stage for the A. H feeling alone and abandoned by me, even though that wasn't the case. Enter OW showing him just how much she cares for him. How much she accepts him just for who he is. Shows him what a great person he is. Tells him she is there for him whenever he wants her physically when he told her he doesn't want the A to progress to that level. Then add the place of business which is a funeral home that is a home. A very cozy place in which they had hours alone together. He hardly ever had to do any sneaking. He could have sex at the end of the day with her, and come home to dinner to me. The ease of the whole thing was a major factor in this.

I asked H recently the following question. I know he doesn't like high drama. When he would try to break it off with oW, even before it turned into a PA, she would would cry and beg him not to leave her. I asked him why he would find that attractive. I pointed out that after discovering the A I didn't once beg him to stay. He thought about it and said, "When she begged me to stay I felt like she must really love me."

Moments when I'm not really pissed off I find this all very interesting. What I've learned is that if this can happen to us it can happen to anyone. Harley had us do that exercise also so H would be aware of his weaknesses and would know how to protect them in the future. H allowed himself to become friends with OW. He started to go to happy hours with her and his partner. All very innocent. At times partner couldn't go so it was just he and her. Then they began to go to some business events together. Still innocent, but now they are driving alone in a car together. Then she is sharing with him about her bad M, and he is sharing with her about his dad. Harley's analogy of a frog is so good. A frog will jump out of hot water. Put it in cold water and bring it to a boil and it will die. What more is there to say? What a slippery slope into hell! CV

I suppose it comes down to a matter of what we call a "good" marriage.

I would think a "good" marriage is where both parties are fully engaged in the relationship in healthy manner.

What you both have described to me is half healthy marriages...your half. This is really what your immunization analogy illustrates.

It sounds to me like both of your husbands had issues that prevented them from being fully engaged with you. It doesn't matter if those issues were in his head or out on the table...they are part of the marriage.

I think what you are really trying to argue is that you both feel like you did everything you could humanly be expected to do and things still went south. That's a lot different than saying the marriage was "good".

Broken, the comment your MC made about being perfect. I agree with it. But don't make the mistake of equating YOU with the marriage. Just because you've done a flawless job of marriagebuilding doesn't mean your spouse is in it as deep as you. In this case, it is NOT a good marriage, no matter how perfect you were.

I think many women assume primary responsibility for the health of their marriage. Sometimes it becomes a matter of pride, like it was with my wife. Our marriage was "perfect" and no one could convince her otherwise. Some of her first words were "This doesn't happen to good marriages like ours!" So when the marriage fails, regardless of the reason, many women tend to want to assume personal responsibility - exploding on the defensive, imploding with guilt, or both. The extremes of these behaviors get in the way of letting you see what really went wrong.

To summarize, unless both spouses are healthy and engaged, the marriage cannot be called "good".

Low

<small>[ May 09, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H feeling alone and abandoned by me, even though that wasn't the case. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just saw this in your post. Not to be gruff, but, frankly, it doesn't matter what YOU thought the case was. How he was feeling was his reality for him at the time. And his reality (as well as yours) defines the health of the marriage.

I'm a little touchy about statements like this, because it basically tells your spouse that regardless of how they feel, they're wrong and have no right to feel that way.

The one thing that made me the most furious and resentful is that she made me feel like my feelings weren't important. She would try to tell me how perfect we were then ask me how I could possibly have a problem. Our discussions always ended with a "of course you're right, dear" on my part because that's what she wanted to hear, but I never felt any better. I just went on trying to play the role she had defined for me in her "Barbie" dollhouse marriage.

Low

<small>[ May 09, 2004, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a little touchy about statements like this, because it basically tells your spouse that regardless of how they feel, they're wrong and have no right to feel that way.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get this but.....

WH is out of town, due back today. I took the opportunity to clean out a couple of drawerrs that were packed with 'stuff"

So, most of the stuff I find is cards and photos from the last few years. I keep finding these valentines, b'day, anniversary cards to me from him during the time of his A. filled with notes, promsises of our passionate love and future, thanking me for my support, hard work, etc. Pix of us together looking happy and relaxed, on vacations, with family and friends.

It made me very angry and sad!

I told him this on the phone, and instead of understanding where I was coming from he turned it around as I was telling him he does everything wrong! I finally asked - was it all a lie these last few years between us?

NO he insists he loves me.

Well, why is he remembering us as being so unhappy during this time!?

He is due home today. I need hugs and cuddles, not someone feeling like he is failing. right now I do not have the energy to build him up. I have had the house and kids on my own for 5 days, he has been fishing and working and eating out every night. selfishly - I feel like it is MY turn.

(just venting)

Low, first off I never had that fantasy of the "perfect" M. I believe conflict and life stresses will happen, but it is a matter of how we deal with those things as a couple. I think H has had the fantasy on and off during the years that a good M doesn't experience any conflict. And I do want to communicate and hear H's feelings. Unfortunately, if someone slams the door in your face how can you be there for them?

Concerning H's feeling abandoned by me while my dad's health was seriously declining. I don't have a problem hearing about how he felt. What I have a problem with is when he compares his A with what I had to deal with concerning my dad. My therapist told me when I said to her I wasn't able to be fully there for H, "CV you were dealing with dying. When someone you love is dying THAT takes precedence." The fact that my H couldn't understand that I was doing the very best that I could under the circumstances is sad. Steve Harley, when I told him what I told my shrink about not meeting H's ENs said "CV, are you saying the A was your fault? So if life circumstances hit your M again will an A happen again?" I told him I didn't blame myself. We actually did have a good M. It wasn't perfect. How the HE** was I to know, or H for that matter, that he had these unresolved issues? That his dad's death, my not being fully there for him, and everthing else in our lives would have made him vulnerable to an A? He didn't protect himself from someone who wanted him. I wanted him also, but there was no way I could have given him what OW did at that time. If H would have shut the door on her and opened up to me, we could have at least tried to support one another at a very difficult time. But that didn't happen.

Have you read the book "Not Just Friends?" I think it's in that book that it says it is a myth that As can't happen in good Ms. For us it was like all the stars alligned in just the right position to have this happen. In saying everything I just wrote, H has to do his own psychological work so that this will never happen again. I need to know if catastrophe strikes again I have an H who will be there for me, as I have always been there for him. I need to discover why H felt so unloved by me, whether it was in his head or not, and try to help him heal from those feelings. Show him I do love him. I hope we can do it! CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't matter if those issues were in his head or out on the table...they are part of the marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These issues are part of the PERSON not of the marriage. Marriage is not an entity, separate from the people involved in it.

A friend of mine who is bipolar has mentioned several times that part of his illness is that he often interprets things far more negatively than they really are. One person's reality is NOT necessarily as valid as another's. In practice it may be extremely difficult to identify what is real and what is not, but one of the identifying symptoms of depression is that the sufferer's "reality" is distorted.