</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kyrian:


Yes, Melody, they should. But that doesn't mean that they will and it doesn't mean that it's up to anyone to force that guilt if they don't... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guilt can't be forced against someone's will. A person feels guilty when they have something to feel guilty ABOUT. And in this case, they feel guilty about their bad choices. It is always a choice. And in this case a very appropos choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It's not exposure that causes loss of social standing or self esteem, but adultery. An adulterer shouldn't esteem their adulterous behavior, it is bad behavior, nothing to "esteem" there. But the loss of self esteem comes from the WS's CHOICES and nothing else.

Q: If this is true, then why invoke exposure at all? If you really believe what you're saying, then why the need to 'expose' the adulterer? What good does this do other than to foster bitterness between WS and BS? Let the adulterer deal with their guilt. Why force them into it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is not logical, one can't force guilt on anyone. Guilt could and should be a natural consequence of bad behavior. Nor is the POINT of exposure to incur guilt. [not that exposure could achieve that end anyway]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I announced that my spouse won a medal for saving a child's life, he wouldn't lose social standing or self esteem. That's because its not exposure that is the issue, but the underlying behavior.

In which case, you wouldn't need to announce it...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This doesn't address my point. The point is the underlying behavior, NOT the behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And a person who cheats on his spouse doesn't deserve good social standing if its not based on the truth.

In your opinion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But *you* are the one who has argued that exposure of an affair causes loss of social standing, so it is YOUR opinion also. Now you are undermining your own argument. Unless you are arguing that one's social standing should NOT be based on the truth and I don't think you'd dare try to sport that opinion.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you have to hide who you are to maintain social respect then you are a phony, an illusion who deserves no respect. No one should help such a person hide who he really is. [/b]

True. And if one is a phony, their true nature will reveal itself. It will not require a BS or anyone else, for that matter, to "expose" it for what it is ..to anyone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will "reveal itself" if it is exposed. This doesn't happen by magic, someone must EXPOSE it in order for it to be revealed. Your argument here works against you once again. If its going to revealed anyway, as you say, then what is the problem?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All spouses return to the spouse willingly, this is a free country. They make that choice of their own free will. Ah, but EXPOSURE sweetens the odds a little, eh? It's the "just in case" measure. It's revenge, Melody, pure and simple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are avoiding my point. No spouse is FORCED to return to their BS against their will. This is a FREE country. You don't know if it is done for revenge and it matters little. The motivation is irrelevent. And the BS is *SUPPOSED* to "sweeten" the odds of reconciliation here, that is the point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything I've read from most (not all) of the posters here are merely efforts to justify seeking retaliation. I think, deep inside, anyone who seeks to 'expose' their WS knows that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you can't possibly know or substantiate this and, once again, are manufacturing ill founded conclusions.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I've said before, if many of you have found success with this technique, I commend you! It's a gutsy move. I guess so long as you're willing to accept the adverse potential of such an effort,
there is no harm in trying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! And usually the payoff is so great in the end that the risk is worth it. Just ask the Harleys! I don't know how many marriages you have saved, but they have saved quite a few with this advice and have adviced BS's to "do everything short of taking out a billboard" to expose the affair.

Take care! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Kyrian, just a quiet word.

People who come to this board are in a great deal of pain and to hear that you are wonderfully happily married but on here to "find things out" about how to keep it that way can sound pretty insensitive.

We have our wonderful Just Learning on this board who is also neither WS nor BS but I have never ever seen him reply to a post that didn't help that person move forward in some way.

Not meaning to flame you and I'm sure your intentions are good but please keep in mind that people here are hurting a great deal.

Jenny

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ:
<strong> Kyrian, just a quiet word.

We have our wonderful Just Learning on this board who is also neither WS nor BS but I have never ever seen him reply to a post that didn't help that person move forward in some way.

Not meaning to flame you and I'm sure your intentions are good but please keep in mind that people here are hurting a great deal.

Jenny </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood, Jenny. My intent was to learn from others here and certainly not to offend. I had hoped to contribute to the discussions. Insensitive? I didn't mean to be. It just seemed like people who have had bad experiences with marriage would be willing to share their knowledge with those of us who could be standing in the wings, and not even know it!

Likewise, I guess I'd hoped that they, too, would listen with open heart and entertain the notion that there might be solutions other than the ones commonly accepted.

I thought a website with a name like MARRIAGE BUILDERS would encourage happily MARRIED people to learn and to continue to BUILD their marriages, too. Apparently, the site is meant more for those whose marriages have come to some form of crisis and is meant to help BS's restructure their lives and, hopefully, their marriages as well.

With all due respect, I think I've learned more than I wanted to know.

So, with that, and a sincere apology, I will humbly take my leave.

Thank you.

So much for open mindedness, huh??

Take care, Kyrian! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kyrian wrote:
Apparently, the site is meant more for those whose marriages have come to some form of crisis and is meant to help BS's restructure their lives and, hopefully, their marriages as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may not be aware of this Kyrian, but you ARE posting on the "General Questions II" board which is under the "Infidelity Forum".

So, yes, most here on this board are experiencing one of the worst crisis of their lives, it's devistatingly life altering.

Jo

Kyrian, you can learn a great deal about what NOT to do from here and yes, we're all on here to build our marriages. There are other websites that are horrific, where people can go to say how much they want to keep the A going and I would want absolutely no part of that.

I think that being an "infidelity" board it's going to be pretty obvious we've reached crisis stage when we get here.

We are all open minded, we all grab at any straws we can get. Most of us are following the principles on the main web site, they sometimes go against commonly held ideas about how to deal with infidelity but they seem to work. They have in my case anyway.

Jenny

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

"guess I'd hoped that they, too, would listen with open heart and entertain the notion that there might be solutions other than the ones commonly accepted."

Gee whiz...

Yeah, there might be other "solutions" out there... Methods, more accurately. Methods are empirical, particularly applied 2 human interactions and intimate relationships.

What we appear 2 have here is a woman who's reasonably intelligent, trying 2 apply logic 2 an emotional problem that she thankfully doesn't appear to have been faced with - yet. 2 me, this fact, and the discussion that it evoked, just underscores the sad "need" that many of us simply MUST be subjected 2 a crisis like infidelity 2 truly be made aware that they have not been meeting their spouse's needs.

It's not what we accomplish with mental mas2rbation exercises like this thread that is the measure of what/who we are, it's what we do in the face of adversity - of OPPOR2NITY, 2 save our own souls, and perhaps those of our loved ones - that measures us.

Persevere,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kyrian:
<strong> ...Ah, but EXPOSURE sweetens the odds a little, eh? It's the "just in case" measure. It's revenge, Melody, pure and simple. Everything I've read from most (not all) of the posters here are merely efforts to justify seeking retaliation. I think, deep inside, anyone who seeks to 'expose' their WS knows that. IMO, it is a knee-jerk reaction from a broken-hearted, desperate soul who needs to blame someone, anyone, for the A and seeks to form an army to help them get the WS back.

As I've said before, if many of you have found success with this technique, I commend you! It's a gutsy move. I guess so long as you're willing to accept the adverse potential of such an effort,
there is no harm in trying.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kyrian,

Probably many of us have felt the same as what you have been voicing. Seeing from the outside vs. living the pain are 2 very different pieces of reality. The later gets to a level of understanding that is difficult to explain.

I hope your M stays healthy and happy, that you may never ever experience the pain that many here have. If by chance you do meet and try to help someone who is going through that pain, you will be in a better position to lend the kind of support they really need (whether BS, WS, OP or family).

A good example is JL. If you get a chance, take a look at some of his posts. A few skilled ones can learn without suffering the pain personally. JL is one of those and has the deep respect of many.

As for you desire to find a site which encourages good marriages to stay that way, well this site does have good books, counseling and a few forums. The one you posted on here primarily deals with A and associated experiences. Right site, maybe wrong topic board? Well maybe. One thing most of us learned is that no one, absolutely no marriage is guaranteed to be exempt from the pain of an A. Divorce, affairs, betrayal and abuse knows no bounds. Never say never.

What we have learned is POJA, radical honesty, etc. Tools which can help all in their relationships in life. Not just with their spouses.

So the tools are out there. A good book to read is His Needs/Her Needs. While it covers about how to deal with issues related to affairs, it also gives some insight on the general needs of men vs women. Quite an eye opener for many. Also go to the concepts section and take the emotional needs questionnaire. You will find it enlightening.

Hope this helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> am a HMW (happily married woman); hoping to learn from the mistakes of others who have been brave enough and willing to share their heartbreaking experiences here. "An ounce of prevention" and all that, you know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">uh-huh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think, deep inside, anyone who seeks to 'expose' their WS knows that. IMO, it is a knee-jerk reaction from a broken-hearted, desperate soul who needs to blame someone, anyone, for the A and seeks to form an army to help them get the WS back.

As I've said before, if many of you have found success with this technique, I commend you! It's a gutsy move. I guess so long as you're willing to accept the adverse potential of such an effort,
there is no harm in trying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does a 'happily' married woman come to an infidelity forum and proceed to argue against the basic concepts of the forum. Why the 'air' of superiority?

I go back and forth between feeling sad that I told who I did, and not. Exposure lessened their contact. No more bubble of happiness. Light has a funny way of exposing the truth.

btw. I told EVERYBODY and the fenceposts. It was NOT revenge, malice, or retaliation. IT WAS PURE PAIN. I needed to tell my story over and over and over and over again.

I didn't lie. I told the simple truth. I didn't do anything wrong. Now, if I had painted the large red A on her white van or classroom door... that would have been revenge. If I took out an ad in the paper or had a billboard painted, that would be revenge. If I TRIED to slander her w/ that which WASN'T truth, embellish my story... THAT would have been revenge.

How can TELLING THE TRUTH be retaliation or revenge? Why is it the BS responsibility to keep 'the' secret? Why is it seen as controlling? or vengeful?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due respect, I think I've learned more than I wanted to know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One day of posting. 13 posts total. And, we couldn't change your mind. You had it made up before you even got here. HMW my left foot.

Cali

Kyrian,

Let me give you a very simple scenario:

You and your older brother share a piggy bank, say, for five years with lots of coins inside. Coins from grandma, aunts, uncles, mom and dad. Coins for birthdays and christmases.

Then, one day while you weren't watching, good ol' bro offers piggy bank to new neighbor girl to impress her while playing. Neighbor girl playfully dips hand inside and withdraws the coins, little by little, every day.

You get angry, right? Coins belong to you and bro, right? What do you do? Smack neighbor girl? Tell your mommy? Tell her mommy? Do you think neighbour girl or your brother will continue to do what they are doing knowing they're doing wrong?

That's what exposure is about. Exposure stops OW from stealing time with your H. Time, affection, love belongs to the family and the spouse. No one has the right to steal it.

Yes, exposure will humiliate little neighbor girl and your older brother. If you talked to your brother about not sharing the little piggy bank and he does not listen to you, wouldn't you go tell mom?? What would you do?

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Ruffled ]</small>

In my observations on this forum since Sept. '00, the ones who most challenge exposure of an affair are the ones who seem to be threatened by it.

(Mel, Jo, mrthrhbrd - was I right? But I didn't set the drag right and the line may have broken.)

Kyrian, if you're reading this, I'll answer one question you posed to me after I retired last night. During the "humiliation" debate, you correctly observed that I claimed that "it works" and then you challenged me that it didn't work in my case.

Recall that I said early on that it doesn't always work to cause an end to an affair. But, in general, it DOES work to remove the secrecy of affairs - how can it not? Some folks - like my former wife and former friend - apparently aren't affected by "humiliation". Perhaps they're so self absorbed and have so insulated themselves from reality that any capacity for humbleness is lost. Stubborn, fortress mentality.

It's sorta like what some folks do when they lose an argument and can't admit it - withdraw, never to be seen again.

WAT

Buh-bye

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />