Hi all - <P>As you can tell from the title of this thread, I'm in kind of a state of despair. I posted an earlier thread on Monday entitled "Opinions wanted - could this be the beginning of the end?" I outlined some observations my SIL made when she ran into my W unexpectedly last Saturday. SIL thought that W's extreme anger and cold shoulder attitude toward her possibly signaled an unraveling of the affair relationship. This news buoyed my spirits!<P>When I got home Monday evening, however, I learned that W visited home during the day and essentially took her remaining clothes. I was absolutely devastated...I cried for an hour. She also left a note saying she "wanted to talk". I'm sure she wants to initiate discussion about the divisin of marital assets...a discussion I don't want to get into now.<P>The affair has been going on for about 4 months now...she left me three months ago and has been living with him for about 2.5 months. He is a married, foreign (Dutch), rich executive whose four children live with his W still living in Germany. He is also about 15-20 years my W's senior in age. He told W that he can't divorce his W "because of the social stigma associated with dovorce in Germany and besides, he can't hurt her that way".<P>My W has essentially become his wh*re I'm afraid. Why would a woman want to stay with a man who has said he won't divorce his wife?<P>I'm going out of my mind and can use s little perspective. I'm doing just about everything that I can to better myself - exercise, meds, talking with family & friends, strengthening my faith through prayer, etc. I have become extremely lonely; this forum has really been a life saver for me. But NOTHING yet has provided any relief from the visceral, debilitating agony I feel each day. I find mornings especially difficult...that was the time W and I enjoyed cuddling. I usually awake about 4 am nowadays imagining her cuddling with OM.<P>I am a true believer that God will work miracles in my life if it is within His plan to do so. I pray each and every day that God's mercy extend to each and every one of us as we travel this dark path.<P>Can anyone give me some words of encouragement? Why is W so selfish and cruel? Does she not know what she is doing? To betrayers - when and how does guilt and shame enter the picture? Can guilt and shame NOT enter the picture? Please help...

Shattered,<BR>I wish I could say something that would take all your pain away. Just know that you are doing everything right. You are taking care of yourself, and that is very important. I do understand the lonliness (H moved out a month ago). Just try to keep your chin up and keep working on you. I also believe that what is meant to be will be, and that things happen for a reason. I'll be thinking of you.<P>------------------<BR>To Thine Own Self Be True<BR>A.K.A.<BR>PondVJ<BR>

shattered,<P>You know my story, I know yours. They're different, and I can't even begin to tell you anything about your W that I haven't already- she's living *right there* in Fantasy Land. <P>Instead, I'm writing to let you know that I care, that I can feel your pain, and that I will also pray for your family.<P>You are a good man, and you're fighting the good fight (asn't it Paul who said that?). <BR>You have friends here who will stick by you.<P>Hugs, n_b<BR>

Hi Shattered1<P>I am so sorry for your pain. It is important that you stay strong and show self confidence when you comunicate with your W. Tell her straight up what she is doing and how she has changed. No sugar coating this issue and that she will one day feel the pain when her "pimp daddy" is finished with her. Take care of yourself right now because you may need to be fishing again. Everybody has their own time for grieving the loss but look beyond grieving. Set a timeline for yourself and stick to it. Tell your W your will wait X amount of days before you start Plan B. After that you should look into getting your life back, grab a few friends and hit the pubs for some socializing.<P>Think about what you can possible do to solve this issue. You can not make someone fall in love with you. You can not control your W or trick her or do anything with her other than be yourself. So start living buddy because that may be all you have. I know it is cold statement and easier to say than do but sometimes we get trapped in our own fantasy world where everything will make itself better. You need to know exactly what control you do have and work with that.<P>Good Luck<BR>_____________________________________________<BR>"Better to die on my feet than live on my knees"

HI Shattered, <BR> I am so sorry for what you are going through.....I've been there, the pain is excrutiating...One of the best books I read was "Private Lies"by Frank Pittman. There was a thread on it about a week ago, posted by Mickey. Your W sounds like the romantic in the book who hypnotically goes off to la la land.....(like my H did). The book helped in describing it all....believe me she will "come to" but will you be there? Why in the world does this happen over and over and to so many people?<BR> Anyway, according to Pittman the betrayers almost all try to come back because the fantasy will end. He says there is a better chance that the H and W will be back together in 5 yrs. and the affair almost always fails....Hang in there, continue to do what you are doing, time and statistics are on your side. Is there anyway to slow down the D? Lu<BR>

Shattered1,<P>You bring up some interesting points. Thinking logically, I do not understand why a woman would knowing enter a relationship where she sees no long term benefit. As you say, she knows he won't divorce his wife. So why is she doing this? Well, perhaps she is swept away by the mighty $$. The fun and excitement of spending cash at will. I firmly believe she will crash. She will see herslf as you do - a kind of whore. Reality will set in eventually - the key is on whether or not you will be there to help her pick up the pieces. <P>Have you read the old testament book of Hosea? I don't remember if I suggested that to you or not. It is quite a love story of a woman caught up in some of the things your wife is. Hosea never gave up on her. He did let her crash though and he was there to pick her up when it happened. Read the story in a Living Bible context I think it will give you some hope.<P>Also, I think I reccomended a spiritual warfare book to you too. If not, it's called "Raising Lambs Among Wolves" and the other is "The Adversary" both by Mark Bubeck. Using his examples, you can model your prayers to fight specific demonic influences that may be influening your wife. As the Bible says, our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the forces of evil. <P>I know those thoughts you are having are ugly ones. And they do tend to crop up at the most awful tmes. Fill your mind with other things and don't dwell on them. Remember, we tend to think the worst of things. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why is W so selfish and cruel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She's lost. The things she will say and do are her reactions to the situation at hand. She litterally can not see down the road. She has been fooled into what she is doing. Just love her the best you can.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does she not know what she is doing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You hit it. She's confused. Emotion is ruling her behavior. It will catch up to her. I think your wife is setting herself up for a big fall. Be there for her. <P>Keep up the good work. No love busters. Lots of unconditional Plan A loving. One day at a time.<P>SHA

Shattered<P>Don't lecture your wife about what she's doing, she can rationalise anything. Do continue to show her you love her. She does not know what she is doing. She has no concept of the pain she is causing you. Be there for her when reality hits. I can only guess that as someone else said "she is living for the moment".

Shattered<P>There is nothing as upside down and insane as infidelity. And as long as your W is in it, in that secret, romantic, forbidden, exciting world with her lover, you are a boring has-been. I know that sounds cruel, but I think it is true. (I'M not saying you're a boring has-been, but how can you compete with what she has given herself to right now?) You can't out-romanticize this guy, you can only state your feelings, then pray and wait and live one day at a time. Have you let her know how you feel? The pain you feel, yet the abiding desire you have to get back together? <BR>I am sorry you are going through this. I'm in a similar place. It is hourly anguish, sometimes every minute. Don't give up.

You responded to my response to Doc on his thread (ANY SUCCESS STORIES AFTER DIVORCE).<P>Your situation is different than mine. My wife didn't leave me for another man, but our pain is the same.<P>I think Sir Hurts Alot (SHA) has had the best response & wisdom. That, she will eventually 'crash & burn'. When she does, will YOU be there to pick up the pieces?<P>I know it hurts, but there is nothing you can do about it. You sound like a Christian and I encourage you to let God deal with her.<P>Don't try to help God out, He doesn't need our help (I am preaching to me as well).<P>There is a verse in Hosea that SHA talked about which says (talking about the wife of Hosea) "I will return to my first husband for then it was better with me than it is now".<P>Give your wife time/space to come to this point.<P>Don't give up, or lose hope (ha! I am preaching to myself after being separated 3-1/2 years from my wife).<P>[censored] from Texas

Viki/n_b/Toronto/Lu/SHA/awoken/doc/[censored] - <P>Thank you so much for your kind and supportive responses. I am feeling a little better this afternoon than I did this morning. For some reason, mornings are always very difficult for me. Perhaps its a brain chemistry thing, I don't know. This site is amazing...all you folks are amazing as well. Again, thank you for the support!<P>Lu - I haven't read your profile yet. I take it from your post that you are the betrayed. If so, you certainly do know how I feel. Not that it's much consolation, but there it's a small comfort to know that others know EXACTLY how you're feeling. When I first went into my depression after discovery, I was sure that nobody knew hoe I felt.<P>Unfortunately, I live in liberal MN where divorces are handed out like candy at Halloween. The MN legislature in its infinite wisdom, decided a "no fault" divorce law was in the interest of the people. One partner can be Jack the Ripper...they are still entitled to a divorce and 1/2 the marital assets.<P>I asked my atty to impede the progress as much as possible. he told me that we should be able to get into the new year before any final decree is reached. I figure by that time, 6 months will have elapsed and if the affair were to crash it would by then. I pray that God's will is to perform a miracle in my marriage by then.<P>SHA - I have noted the books and Bible passages you recommended. I'm fairly inundated with books right now (relationship books, books on infidelity, spiritual guides, etc.). I will eventually get to your recommendations. Thanks!<P>awoken - Unfortunately, I don't have the chance to lecture her even if I wanted to. You see, she moved out in June and has been living with OM since. I don't even know where she lives!<P>doc - yes, she absolutely knows how I feel, unless she turned a completely deaf ear to me when I saw her last. I told her over and over, in a very soothing, non-threatening comforting voice how much I loved her and that my love for her transcends the pain I feel. She told me that she thought this was "amazing". She filed for divorce anyway.<P>[censored] - hi again. Speaking of amazing, I don't know how you do it my friend. 3.5 years...I know I wouldn't have the strength nor desire to wait that long. It is a testimonial not only to your character but your love for your wife. God will certainly reward you.

Hi Shattered,<P>Just a few additional thoughts to add to the others who posted.<P>First, you ask "Why would a woman want to stay with a man who won't divorce his wife?" As a woman( and sadly once a betrayer-NEVER AGAIN) I would say emphatically. She WON'T. I mean, she wont stay with a man who won't divorce his wife. My guess is that right now she thinks that she will "win". I wanted to "win" too. I thought the OM would pick me. I think that she is convinced that he will pick her that she can get him to love her so much that he will leave his wife and children. Such is the fantasy that she is in. She will realize (it may take a while)that he is NOT gloing to pick her. <P>You know, the holidays are approaching. It will be curious and interesting to see what this man does. Will he return for a while to Germany, will his wife and children come to see him? Time does march on. If he goes home to his wife for a while, this may start to drive your wife stark-raving mad. She may want the wife to know, she may start pushing the issue to make progress in the relationship. It is only human nature and predictable and eventually she is going to want to be his one and only or nothing at all. <P>Anyway, in the meantime you DO need to take good care of your self.<BR>

Bonny - <P>As always, you are such a comfort!! I really enjoy your replies because you seem to really understand what my W is trying to do. I never really thought about the upcoming holidays...that's a real interesting thought.<P>I really hope that you are correct. I can't see my wife happy being his mistress (whore) indefinetely. Sooner or later, the OM will just trade her in for a younger model. To us who have never been in this fantasy world to enjoy the intoxicating high, this is sheer lunacy. We all can see that this relationship will never go anywhere!! My W has effectively shut herself off from ALL family members and friends. How long can she really expect it to go on? When they get in a fight, who will support her?<P>Wow, Bonny, you opened my eyes just a little bit more with your post.<P>Don't you worry, I'm getting stronger every day! Thanks!

Hi Shattered,<BR>I am so sorry that you are in pain. It is so very difficult.<BR>I am like you, wondering the hows and whys. It is pointless to try and figure them out. They are in a totally different world. Their reality is not real.<BR>Like the others, you need to try and give her unconditional love (it is sooo hard) and let her know that you will love her when her world crashes.<BR>You sound stronger than you think you are. Your relationship with the Lord is in tack, and believe me, that IS the most important thing. He will guild you and not forsake you.<BR>Take care of yourself.<BR>Sending you lots of love,<BR>Cheryl

Hi there Ceecee!<P>I was wondering about you. A few days ago, you wrote a post of despair and my heart just ached for you. You are so kind to be reaching out to me when I know how much pain you are in. You sound like a wonderful woman.<P>The woman I dated before I met my W was named Cheryl...I often wonder where she is? You don't suppose...nah - (just kidding)<P>I lean on the Lord all the time. I, like you, have found great comfort in giving this problem over to Him. It really is a great stress reliever! I know His love for me (and all here) is unconditional and true.<P>I have communicated my unconditional love to my W in a letter I slipped in with her mail I've been collecting. She comes by every 10 days or so to collect it. (I don't know why she just doesn't change her address...I suppose if she did I would be able to see where she's living with the OM).<P>Again, CC, thanks for your support. Call on me if you ever need a shoulder to cry on. Giving can be much more rewarding than receiving...I like to give!

shattered,<P>Morning is the hardest time for me as well. It has helped me to actually pray as I fall asleep ("Lord you promise to give sleep to those who trust you.") and then to recite the Lord's prayer as I lay in bed. (Our FATHER....Give us THIS DAY our daily bread). My mornings are still not easy, but I dont' feel quite as insane.

Shattered,<P>I just had to reply back to you.<P>I'm pretty sure that I am not 'that' Cheryl of your past. Every man, and I do mean every man, I have had a relationship with has been a complete ahole. From the sounds of you, you do not fit that description .<P>Keep the faith with God. Our lives are in His hands and He will not lead us astray.<P>I pray every night that He give me comfort and peace and the somehow, someway He will lead my H back home. I am trying to live my life w/o my H. I am thinking along the lines that he wont come home, and I still have to get up in the morning.<P>Put a smile on your face (fake it until it feels natural) and go out the face the world, knowing that you are doing the right thing (those demons are tough to beat)<P>LOL,<BR>Cheryl

Shattered1,<P>He even said he wouldn't ever divorce his W??? That has got to hurt- If not this minute it will HAVE to get old with her... She will eventually see this relationship for the farse it is... I will pray to that end too..<P>Take care of yourself ok Shattered?

Janet (rjr#2)- <P>I was actually engaged to a woman named Janet about 15-20 years ago!!<P>Yes, he told her that. Now you must remember that I get all my information 3rd hand. W lived with her brother and SIL for about 2 weeks early in affair; during that time, W excitedly told of the plans they had to get married.<P>However, after a trip W and OM took to San Francisco, W came back to brother and SIL and said that OM told her that "in Germany it is a social stigma to be divorced; he didn't want to hurt his W so he cannot divorce her". (Since the social structure in German is very socialistic, I truly believe OM is concerned with his W taking him to the proverbial cleaners). We all know that he is using my W for 1 thing and 1 thing only...<P>Others on this forum have speculated that W may have convinced herself that she can get OM to "love" her so much that he will leave his wife. With 4 kids ranging in age from 5 to 18, I doubt he will leave his wife. What do you think?<P>I am so exasperated and deflated today that I feel like just quitting. I don't know if I could ever trust her again.

Hang on there Shattered1,<P>You can trust her again...it CAN come around to that again... My H gave me another chance and I will forever be grateful for getting that even though I didn't deserve it. So I believe you can get that back - not blindly but in a way that we can 'look out' for possible difficult situations for our spouses yet, in a new way, trust...yes.<P>I sure don't (midwestern influence here ) think he'll leave his wife.... and I do think she may believe she can 'make him' love her...Let's start with him...<P>He's Mr. foreigner(sp).. MR RICH Foreinger...Mr 'I get a lot of attention from American women because I am mysterious' (I am guessing all this of course but it makes sense right?) NEW AND DIFFERENT...Sounds like the classic 'user.' <P>Then there is your W who, like I was, was very insecure (is this true? - all guesses) The attention was amazing. The OM TOLD ME HE DIDN'T love me!! What went on in my twisted messed up mind? 'He will at some point...after all, I'm a good person, he WILL need me...' <P>I don't know what it is Shattered, I mean I guess I had been so insecure that finding out that someone new was attracted to me (for one 'thing' - absolutely true) encouraged all of the intense addictive feelings they say it does. I was hooked. An e-mail from him would send my emotions up..it didn't make sense, it was stupid and shallow even - Just took a matter of time until I could grab onto reality and that's when it ended. <P>I have to run but will check in later in the weekend ...try to hang in there. She will eventually see this guy for what he is...MR FORIENGER the FAKE... or worse (you can choose your words ) <P>PLEASE HANG IN THERE !!!<P>-janet... not many Janet's around. Guess it's not too popular a name..Lone Star likes to call me interplanet janet.. oh well...take care<p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 17, 1999).]

Hi Shattered-<P>Just when I think I hurt so much and just when I feel so lousy I come to MB and read about others problems. Then I forget all about myself and feel so badly for others-who it appears have it so very much worse than I do. I am very lucky as my H and I are doing fairly well. My biggest problem is that I have an enormous amount of time to think about my H's OW - who was my friend - and I keep trying to relive what they did in my mind. I keep remembering things that make more sense now and I remember things that hurt me all over again. But all in all-I have my H here with me and he does love me, he is very regretful and I know without a doubt that we will be ok. Which leads me to your post..........golly I feel bad for you We can all reply to your posts and I sure hope you know that everyone who does repsond is reaching out a hadn to you. I know as we all do that as much as it helps the pain is still there-deep inside of you. From all I have read and learned I truly believe that it is up to each and every one of us to do whatever it takes to make ourself happy. We must do this before trying to make anyone else happy. It must hurt you terribly to know that you love your wife very much and she chooses to be with a married man that says he won't divorce his wife. But look in the mirror-that guy you see there is a super nice caring man. Smile-doesn't that look great to you? If you can find a smile-find a good feeling inside yourself-and DO NOT blame yourself for your wifes choices you will begin to find the happiness that is there waiting for you. If you do that and with all of us wishing you well I am certain you will begin to mend a bit <P>I am sending you my prayers and hugs for a good evening and a wonderful weekend.<P>*heartache*