Hi cwmac,

I have been working very long hours this week and haven't had a chance to log on here until tonight. I read the thread we started and saw a lot of chaos, so I don't want to bring that thread back up to the front page to address you.

Anyway, I am not sure if you are still here after all that has transpired but if you are, please let me know how things are going? Just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you and hope that things are ok.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

mrsx

MrsX,
Thanks for your post. It cheered me up a bit. I haven’t posted or signed on in a few days. I have been really discouraged and disheartened by the comments on the other thread.

I don’t get it. I couldn’t get anyone to understand that I felt as if we were having a private conversation that they rudely interrupted. It’s as if you and I were having a private conversation with KiwiJ and Lisa103 somewhere in public in the real world and another group of people, who after eaves dropping on our conversation, jumped in a told us their opinion on our topic and told us that our opinion was morally wrong. I’m sure some people do that in the real world but I think most people would label it as highly rude behavior.

Someone had said that I should research a person’s past posts to know more about them. Yeah right. Funny thing is that same person didn’t seem to have researched my posts. I’ve been posting since 2002 and I have only responded in that manner on one other occasion. It was a similar situation in that someone hijacked the thread and attacked me for my opinion.

I also couldn’t seem to get anyone to understand that my reaction was caused by someone’s first post that said to the effect that I should just assume that my W’s OM had a bigger [censored] than me and that he is everything in bed that I’m not. In the real world, if anyone made this statement to any man, whether “tongue in cheek” or not, the gloves would come off. I think I’ll go to a bar this weekend and try it to see if my theory is correct. Make that a biker bar. Just kidding. I’m not stupid nor am I suicidal.

Someone else jumped into the thread and said that she obviously knew why my W won’t tell me the truth about certain aspects of her affair. It was due to my anger. That person made numerous other assumptions that she knows nothing about. Normally I’m the type of person that is very slow to anger.

Way back in some of my early threads I did post that anger was an issue in our marriage. News flash. Our counselor has recently said,” Cwmac you don’t bring as much anger to the M as your W believes. She is a “conflict avoider” and therefore even normal discussions appear to her as arguments. Some of the emotions or traits that you exhibit in the course of the M ie sadness, silence, etc are perceived to be anger by your W. She is a “mind reader.”

Anyway thanks again for your post. If I hadn’t seen it I’m not sure I would have posted again. It reminded me of your first few posts back in November when you first came to MB and were trying to figure out what you should do. Hope I helped you then; you’ve helped me now.

cwmac

PS I guess I won't be surprised if anyone of the other people jump into our conversation and respond with a flame.

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Ummmmm - am I allowed in here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just wanted to say cwmac, glad you're back posting.

Jenny

cw...I'm glad to see you back too! I've been concerned that you had deserted us awful FWS!!!

[ quote from cwmac:

PS I guess I won't be surprised if anyone of the other people jump into our conversation and respond with a flame. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Surprise! No flame here, glad to see you back. I was going to write you a little poem starting with Come on back, Cwmac… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Of course I had looked at your other posts and no, you are normally not so reactionary. The suggestion that your wife’s hesitancy to speak truthfully to you may have something to do with your anger is mine. The thought was ONLY based on what YOU wrote.

I'm glad to hear your counselor feels you are doing well in your mode of anger expression but your problem still is your wife's perception. You will need to bend over backwards with her to get around that one.

I’m not so sure why you think threads are private, Cwmac. Emails are more private if privacy is what you are after but still not completley private either.(Also definitely NOT the greatest idea between male and females, MB members or no)

This is a public forum. All members of MB and even guests who are not even registered may read any thread on this board they please. Sometimes it’s the person who’s “jumping in” who helps us the most. I know this has been true for me both here on MB and on other forums.

Anyway I'm glad you decided not to throw in the MB towel, because you know the tools are here for you and Mrs. Cwmac to recover your marriage. Keep posting, take what you can use and leave the rest. Best, KB

cwmac

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is a &#8220;conflict avoider&#8221; and therefore even normal discussions appear to her as arguments. Some of the emotions or traits that you exhibit in the course of the M ie sadness, silence, etc are perceived to be anger by your W. She is a &#8220;mind reader.&#8221;
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was our WHOLE problem during our marriage. I said your w's A was like mine, that's because she's like me!

H and I never argued for this very reason. I thought even a minor conflict would mean he didn't love me anymore and our marriage would be over. Stupid, I know. He was the same so we never really communicated at all.

During MC I kept saying to our MC, I assumed such and such (insert anything you like there about what I thought H was thinking).

She would say to H "is that right" and he would say "no, I wasn't thinking that at all."

She used the old cliche "if you assume, you are making an "[censored]" out of "you" and "me."

Jenny

cwmac,

Glad to see you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm glad you decided not to leave! You have no idea how much you have helped me get through this mess! Even still helping me. I need the input from a BH because like I said, I don't really get much input from my H.

Conflict avoider! Ha! His picture is next to that entry in Websters! Well, not very funny, actually, and hopefully we will address that issue in time. I am just giving him all the time he needs and if he doesn't want to talk of the A I won't force it on him, but believe me I have so many questions! Does this make any sense? I still feel like we aren't connecting emotionally, because I don't know what he is feeling. I am not saying I want to hear he is hurting, I hope he's not, but I feel like we would be more intimate if I knew what he feels.

Anyway, time for bed. Hope to talk to you soon!

mrsx <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KiwiJ quote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ummmmm - am I allowed in here

Just wanted to say cwmac, glad you're back posting </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely and thank you.

Lisa103 quote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm glad to see you back too! I've been concerned that you had deserted us awful FWS!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Lisa. Hate to say it but I was so frustrated that almost did desert you.

MrsX quote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Glad to see you! I'm glad you decided not to leave! You have no idea how much you have helped me get through this mess!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks I'm glad that I helped you see the light back in 2003.

I thought on my previous post I was clear as to my reasoning. At the risk of stirring it up again let me try to further explain.

Yes I'm quite aware that anyone even unregistered guests may read any post that they want to stick their nose into. I may not be a member of MENSA but I'm not stupid.

IMHO when a thread is addressed to a specific person it's a call out for info from or a conversation with one individual. For example KiwiJ posted a thread titled "JL are you too shocked to talk to me anymore." That's KiwiJ giving a shout out to Just Learning. Of course anyone can read it but I personally think it would be rude to jump in and hijack the thread. A similar personal thread here on GQII is "Dewt..a response to your response to me"

The reason these should be semi-private is that otherwise MBers will start to post their e-mail addresses so that they can leave the confines of this board to discuss an issue. In this case I don't think MrsX would feel comfortable e-mailing me privately. My e-mail address has my last name in it so I'd lose my anonymity. Last but not least I agree that I don't think it's a good idea for male and female MBers to make contact outside the board.

In the case of the cwmac thread I didn't mind that KiwiJ and Lisa103 joined in because they were trying to be helpful. Unlike the other party who IMHO was insulting and judgemental.

Of course, threads that have titles that are questions or statements are inviting any and all participants to join in and voice their opinion. Even then I think the post should be civil and not a rude flame regardless of your opinion or belief in your moral standing.

I guess I've just been around chat rooms and boards too long and actually know a little ettiquete. Nothing personal.

But I know that the inmates are running the assylum around here so it's probably wishful thinking.

cwmac

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

cwmac, I agree. I look at posts that people have sent to other specific people and think "they want to have a private talk." Of course I have a sneaky little look but, really, only if it's people I know. I have talked to MrsX a lot on the board and thought her call to you would probably be about something I knew about or could help with. I am a nosy woman after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's like WAT's recent post calling for pep and ark. I had a quick look and it all became so entertaining and humorous that I felt anyone could join in.

Back to you. I WISH Mrs cwmac would come on here. Can you tell her that there are these lovely women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> who are just like her who would love to talk to her.

Jenny

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

KiwiJ,
Maybe she will.

I recently had a conversation with her that politely told her IMHO she was leaving all of the marriage work to me. For example I've read half a dozen marriage or infidelity books. She's skimmed two.

She'll go to MC but I'm the only on who needs IC. There are other examples that we don't need to go into.

Her attitude continues to be that 90% of the work is needed on my side of the equation. Actually that percentage may be too low. LOL.

I think she has finally acknowledged that she may actually have an issue or two. Imagine that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

By the way, when one is being sarcastic or "tongue in cheek" on MB it's always safer to use the roll eyes icon.

Sorry can't help my sarcastic cynical self.

She said she actually came to MB yesterday. She said she didn't find anyone she could relate to?! She must have been lost down on some obscure topic board that rarely gets posts. I'll try to casually suggest a few user names that she should shadow.

Of course it'll be my three favorite FWSs: MrsX, KiwiJ and Lisa103. Actually I think the three of you are a good cross section of personalities that she may be able to relate to.

Having her come here has it's downside too. I'll have to learn how to erase some of my ancient posts that are complete vents. How do you erase hundreds of posts? Anyone know?

cwmac

Gee she actually came on here. That's a good start.

My H won't come on here at all. He read all my first posts and a few from BS's. He found it too painful.

You can't even edit now if 10 minutes has gone past. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Lucky for me that rule wasn't here a few days ago and I could erase my "offensive" posts.

It is really not fair that you are doing 90% of the work. If I hadn't come on here I'd probably be the same. I didn't even know what was needed from me but by reading, reading, reading I found out.

It's ironic but H found out about my A by finding all the relationship books I had. He asked me, in the middle of the night, why I had them and I confessed. I was going to anyway - I was much the same as Lisa - nearly at nervous breakdown point from guilt.

Jenny

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

KiwiJ,
My first piece of discovery was a few innocent e-mails. We were changing ISPs and I was trying to send old e-mails to the in box on the new provider. They were just "hi how are you?" kind of stuff. But as I read closer my wife knew the names of his kids and their activities. Since they had only seen each other once a year before at a photo showing, I thought that a bit odd.

A few days later I was doing the taxes and since we can't write off her cell bills I was going to throw them away, but remembered the e-mails so I took a look. Shocked to see two numbers (cell & work) right there in black and white. Then went to the home long disatance page and there were more. Nunerous pages had been thrown away but certain ones had to be kept for the monthly figures to show.

Anyway, I started to ask a few innocent questions. Have you talked to OM in awhile? "No we only talk about every 4-6 months just to keep in touch." That was the first of many lies.

At one point she pretty much directly told me I was a paranoid jealous insecure loser.

More questions more lies. Eventhough most BS want to believe in the beginning I didn't because of her lie about the frequency of calls.

Then one day she had the flu and was in bed. I noticed that her cell phone had a v-mail on it. My heart started racing. I picked it up called the v-mail box. When it asked for the pass word, I got it on the first guess.

It was OM. He started by saying,"the sunshine reminded him of her smile." Now my heart was pounding! He went on to say how much he missed her. He gave a few updates on his life. He always painted himself as a super successful exec. (Funny thing is... so am I so I'm not sure why that was part of the attraction) Then he said in a very pleading voice that he just had to see her sson. He said "I've got to see you. At the minimum for lunch."

By the end of this call my adrenaline was at such a high level I could have probably lifted my car.

About this time I found MB and started a Plan A.

I'd ask a few more questions; still lies like "we're just really good friends" I decided that since "all's fair in love and war." I decided to buy a voice activated recorder while she was out of town on a trip.

When she got back, I told her I missed her alot (true). The Plan A had started to work. She especially appreciated all of the work I did while she was on her two week adventure with a friend. I told her that I had thought about her friendship with OM and that I had decided that she was right I was being silly and jealous. I handed her the phone and said call him whenever you want.

Two days later he called. As I listened to the tape that night my adrenaline was again pumped. Alot of the conversation was updates on life and info about her trip. Interspersed they talked about me. She said that "I was a changed man." She said," ya know what really scared the **** out of him? 'us'."He sounded disappointed. She went on about how I had been so helpful while she was gone. The OM had the nerve to say, "well maybe BH can look in the mirror and feel better about himself." (Thanks for the cheap psychanalysis OM. Can you look in the mirror and feel good about betraying your W and two small children) That's the "good" news.

The bad news was that she said things to him like," believe me theres not a day that doesn't go by that I don't think of you seven times." She also told him in so many words that he was her soul mate and that "she never wanted to lose that." She also said that things couldn't be the "same as before." He sounded disappointed yet happy that she was "going to leave a space for him" (Typical OM always hopeful that the sex might resume in the future)

More later.

cwmac

<small>[ May 08, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

cwmac, kiwij and mrsx...

excuse me... i've been reading along with you all... i have to say...

cwmac, the things you posted from tempted women ring a bell for me also... your wife may be telling you the truth... i had sex with the other man twice... he can't hold a candle to my husband... at the time i was highly emotionally attached to the other man... sex with him should have been mind blowing... reality was another situation... it was wrong and i knew it... sex is in the mind... my mind would not let my body respond...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ:
<strong>This was our WHOLE problem during our marriage. I said your w's A was like mine, that's because she's like me!

H and I never argued for this very reason. I thought even a minor conflict would mean he didn't love me anymore and our marriage would be over. Stupid, I know. He was the same so we never really communicated at all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">kiwij...

this is me also... the difference is my husband a i did/do argue a lot... so much so that my feeler did not believe that my husband loved or cared for me...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mrsx:
<strong>Conflict avoider! Ha! His picture is next to that entry in Websters! Well, not very funny, actually, and hopefully we will address that issue in time. I am just giving him all the time he needs and if he doesn't want to talk of the A I won't force it on him, but believe me I have so many questions! Does this make any sense? I still feel like we aren't connecting emotionally, because I don't know what he is feeling. I am not saying I want to hear he is hurting, I hope he's not, but I feel like we would be more intimate if I knew what he feels.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mrsx...

this makes perfect sense to me... if it wasn't for the betrayed husbands here on marriage builders i'd have few clues as to what my husband must have felt...

you all are helping me tremendously...

thank you...

oaktown...

Hi Oaktown, yes your situation is the same as mine. It's the emotional attachment. Glad we're helping.

cwmac, I REALLY want to talk to your wife now. All that you've come across with cellphone records, conversations etc is very typical of all of us WW's you know and typical of an A. Those conversations, those thoughts of your W's could have been me - were me.

OM said to me, when I said H knew, and I had promised never to see him (OM) again "you must keep your promise to "H". So caring, so understanding. (can I use the rolleyes now, can I can I?). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It's all part of the Tempted Woman. They know just what to say. That first post from you/MrsX on the other thread was so eye opening.

I'm with WAT on this one - I think the mothership is full of salivating aliens waiting for the next one. (Just joking but the stories are all SO similar).

Jenny

Oaktown,
You touch on a theory of mine. WW who have great sex with their OM aren't (yet) experiencing the guilt wheras those that don't have great sex may be feeling guilty even during the act.

Despite the guilt they have the sex anyway because of the feelings and emotional bond. In some cases bc women are taught to be "pleasers" so they want to make the OM happy and give him waht he wants. Any thoughts FWWs?

I definitely know that great sex comes from the woman's mind. I've said it many times before that women need to feel love before they'll have sex wheras men can't love until they have sex. Yes there are exceptions (especially hormonal 20 somethings)

I'm glad our thread has helped. It's helping me also. (well except for the judgmental comments disguised as "tongue in cheek" but I digress.

cwmac

<small>[ May 08, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Everyone,
Here's another one of my half baked theories.

I believe (and I'll limit the comment to male BSs bc that's what I am) that BHs who are in complete ignorance until the fateful DDay can typically recover faster than those of us that suspect. Harley only briefly mentions this on this site while Glass focuses on it in her book.

The pattern of finding some sort of evidence, asking questions, receiving lies, finding more evidence, asking yet more questions, receiving even more fantastic lies sets the stage for a much longer recovery.

That's not to say the initial shock isn't bad for the BHs who receive the news "out of the blue."

We all know the divorce stats. It is statistically true that more marriages fail due to infidelity than other reasons. Of those, Ms with WHs tend to survive at a higher rate than those with WWs.

My theory is that of the BHs who decide to leave WW/FWWs most of them had to suffer through prolonged periods of lies (whether about the past or the present ie continued contact. The Ms of the BHs who didn't suspect have got to survive at a higher rate. Anyone know of any stats?

So KiwiJ, MrsX and Lisa103 your Ms have a higher chance of sucess than mine.

Oaktown did you tell your H out of the blue or did he suspect?

cwmac

<small>[ May 08, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Oaktown did you tell your H out of the blue or did he suspect?

cwmac...

i developed an emotional affair with the other man in april of 2001... there were lots of phone conversations and email... the feeling and the attachment grew and grew... on dec 27th it turned into a physical affair...

i didn't need/want to have sex with the other man... i did need/want to continue to have all the other things i got from him... having sex with the other man was more about me wanting to take care of his need since he was doing such a good job of taking care of mine...

as stated in my previous post, i knew it was wrong... i set it up so that my husband would discover my activities... i began making phone calls to the other man at 2am while husband laid in the bed and listened... my husband became suspicious and broke into my email... so approximately two week after it became physical husband printed out some of the email and called me on it...

husband offered his forgiveness to me from the beginning... all he wanted was no contact... took me about two month (breaking the emotional connection was he!!) but eventually i was able to comply...

oaktown...

<small>[ May 08, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

Oaktown,
Our timelines are somewhat close. My W started the relationship around Jan '01. It was an EA by late spring. It turned physical in Summer '01 (after a trip to Europe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) Continued through fall. Suspected Jan '02 Discovered March '02.

W says sex was onetime but I have ahard time believing her especially since I didn't get the truth of the PA until just this past September.

cwmac

cwmac, there could really be something in your theory about someone finding out as a total shock and someone suspecting and being lied to.

I never lied at all once I had confessed. I sometimes played things down because I didn't want to cause more hurt. But all the truth came out within at least 2 months of d-day because
my H sat down with me one night and said I want to hear everything, I'll listen, I won't get angry but I can't promise I won't be hurt.

So we sat there with a bottle of wine and the whole story came out from me. He was very grateful and naturally very hurt, but it was another major step forward in our recovery.

What I am really hearing from you is that your trust has been torn to shreds and that is what all your questions are about. It's not going to make any difference now what we say about how many times, whether it was good or bad etc. because you have learnt through the bitter experience with your wife that the other shoe could drop at any moment.

It probably won't make any difference now what your wife says either because none of it is going to sound like the truth any more.

cwmac, I really feel for you. No one should be put through what you're going through. Truth was the one thing I could give my H after putting him through this in the first place. She owes you that much whatever her reasons for lying at the start.

Where are you at right now in your marriage?

Jenny

KiwiJ,
The sad thing is that when I discovered the R and new it was an EA and suspected it was a PA I suggested to my W that the best way for recovery was radical honesty from DDay forward.

I showed her Harley's page on this site that talks about recovery and how it is more difficult with several factors: multiple affairs, WS abandoning the BS and lack of honesty.

I also read her a passage from "Not Just Friends" that said that the best way to start to recovery is to answer all questions honestly and the sooner the better.Otnerwise a false recovery could occurr. We had a false recovery that wasted 18 months.

Where is my marriage? Things are better. I'm on ADs. I've stopped drinking at least until I sort out my M. I'm hopeful but I need more effort from her. Her attitude is as I said above:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She'll go to MC but I'm the only on who needs IC. There are other examples that we don't need to go into.

Her attitude continues to be that 90% of the work is needed on my side of the equation. Actually that percentage may be too low. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like most BSs I have good days and then I have bad days. Lately the good days are more frequent than the bad days.

We talked about conflict avoiders earlier. One of the effects of being married to one is that when I have a bad day I see it as 4 steps forward 1 step back. She sees the opposire way as 4 steps backward.

gotta go for a short while.

cwmac