Update for my friends here at MB
(especially KiwiJ, Lisa103 & MrsX)

This past weekend MrsCwmac answered all of my questions. She didn't want to but she did knowing that it was probably the only way for me to get past it and truely move on. We agreed that she'd answer all the questions once and for all. Meaning I need to drop it. In one of his letters Harley describes this exact situation.

I feel better about it. I know it took alot of courage for her to do it.

This step combined with her deep regret and guilt/shame tells me that we are going to make it.

cwmac

cw...I'm so glad to hear that you and mrscw are making progress. I know that it must have been very hard for your w and for you to have that "talk" but this is what both of you needed to move on. I think that sometimes it's what we don't know that can hurt us more than what the facts actually are. I wish you two the very best of luck!

Well, I'm back at last. My old computer completely and utterly died and now that I'm not at work I can't use work time and work computer to read MB anymore LOL.

I now have a lovely new computer with a flat screen and all the bells and whistles.

The job situation is getting scary. I thought that jobs would fall out of the sky but they haven't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

H and I have been through a ghastly time in the last few days but are still together. He was going to move out for a month.

CWMac, if you don't mind I'll use this thread to tell all but I'd rather get your OK before I go into detail. if you don't want me to threadjack I'll start another post.

BTW, I'm so glad you got the whole story from Mrscwmac.

Jenny

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

KiwiJ,
Sorry I'm so slow getting back to you. I'm sorry to hear about you and MrKiwi. By all means, please update everyone.

I had a horrible day. Had to put my dog down. Uuuugghh. Horrible feelings. My W is especially hard hit. Daughters,too.

cwmac

(((((Cwmac and your family)))))) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Putting our dog down was one of the worst things we've ever been through. She was an Irish Wolfhound and the most beautiful, gentle, lovely member of our family. It was 6 years ago but we still keep a photo of her on the sideboard.

I won't bother you with any of my troubles now.

So sorry - it's awful I know.

Jenny

KiwiJ what's going on????

cwmac

I meant it's awful when you lose a beloved pet.

The other day I was going to the bank at our local shopping centre just before I went to a job interview. I walked up the road past the shops and OM was sitting outside a cafe with two other guys, obviously talking business.

I looked at him (through him - no recognition) and he looked at me (through me - no recognition) and then I walked on round the corner to the bank. I then walked round the back of all the shops so I wouldn't have to walk past him again.

It threw me because I still felt "feelings".

Anyway, over the weekend I was a bit quiet and H said "How are you REALLY?". I waffled and then said I was still unsure of feelings for H, feelings for OM, blah, blah, blah.

He said "There's only so much a person can take. I think I should move out, we should sell the house and start again on our own."

I said I didn't want any permanent separation but it may be better if we have some time away from each other.

Upshot was, he went to his sister's for the day and I went to my mother's. He came home about 3 and said his sister said he could stay with them for a month while we sorted things out.

I said we should go for a total plan B as I knew that no contact with him for a month would kill me and maybe that's what I need to wake me up once and for all.

Anyway, we went to my mother's for dinner and had a good talk to her. H said I can't leave you even for a day and I had thought that he would be away for my 50th birthday which upset me terribly, after all we have 30 years behind us, and we went to bed leaving it like that.

Monday, he had the day off, we went to buy the new computer and had a fun day with son, putting it all together.

Everything was fine till this morning when H said "I still don't think you're with me 100% but I refuse to spend my old age living on my own in some little apartment." He also said "If you're still waiting for that f***wit, you'll be waiting forever."

So there you have it. My best girlfriend says I need a regular slap around the head and I really do deserve one. I DO know when I'm well off - H is a unique husband and puts up with more from me than most mortal men would.

I intend to really throw myself into job hunting this week in between giving myself my own 2x4s.

No one said recovery would be easy but I still think we'll make it.

Jenny

Jenny,

In some ways your girl friend is really right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said I didn't want any permanent separation but it may be better if we have some time away from each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would that help? You need to stay away from OM or decide he is the one you want and go wreck his marriage. Seriously, it is contact with OM that is causing this. It needs to stop and YOU need to get straight who you want to be with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Upshot was, he went to his sister's for the day and I went to my mother's. He came home about 3 and said his sister said he could stay with them for a month while we sorted things out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jenny, there is NOTHING for your H to sort out. He has done all he can do, this is up to you. I know you have stated in the past that you feel as if you are in dream land, but it is time to really wake up. You are NOT going to ever be with OM. Do you know why? He does NOT want you. He won't leave his family for you. It is you that seem willing to wreck yours.

It is time you sat down and really really faced reality. Your H is facing the reality that his W does NOT really love him, but is settling for him, while she awaits the arrival of her lover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said we should go for a total plan B as I knew that no contact with him for a month would kill me and maybe that's what I need to wake me up once and for all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it might, but you really need to plan B your OM. I mean you need NO CONTACT. Unfortunately, I suspect your H feels that if he truely separated from you, you would just leave him and persue the OM. Perhaps he is right, I don't know.

Jenny, I do know this, you need to make up your mind about who it is you are going to give your heart to. If it is OM, allow your H to find another woman that can and will love him. He sounds like the sort of man, many woman could and would cherish, especially if they get to know him.

If it is your H you want to give your heart to, then do it and mean it.

I really wish I could offer advice on how to get out of the fog, but I do know that you are finding out why Harley recommends no contact. Failing that, you are going to have to conscieously decide on where to put your heart.

God Bless,

JL

JL, as usual you've hit the nail on the head again. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I didn't mean to see OM - I couldn't help it if he was sitting there.

Your reply upset me, but for the right reasons, you make me think about things the right way.

Even my mother gave me a 2x4. She (and my dad when he was alive)loves my H.

Everyone is blaming my age (they think I'm menopausal - which I'm not just yet) which I find very patronising.

I need to really get my act together. H has suggested we take a trip together - do you think it would help me (us)?

Jenny

Hi Jenny!
It has been a very long time since I have posted here. It’s probably been a couple of years. It’s been almost 3 years since my affair ended. I do, however lurk, every now and then, and when I saw your story, I must admit, I have been hooked. You see, I had an affair just like yours. And I feel for you and your struggle. In fact, you remind me a lot of myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I just want to let you know, that you are doing great! I do, however, know and understand the feelings that you have. Luckily for me my FOM lives in an entirely different state than I do, so no contact for me was easy. I can not imagine just running into him!

Anyhow, I just wanted to tell you, that I understand what you are going through as well as your H. I’m around if you want to ask any questions. I can do it here or we can do it over email.

Just know that it does get better. As I said before, it has been almost 3 years for me and my H. And my marriage is stronger than it has ever been before.

Take care,
1step

Jenny,

I don't think it is your age, but being a guy I don't know about those female hormones and what effect changes in them mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But, I do know this...you need to decide and I mean decide if you want to be a W to your H. If you do, then you must then DECIDE to not dwell on OM, but rather dwell on your H.

You asked about a trip. I think it could be a good thing. But, recall that on the last trip you two took, the trip of a life time, you were constantly in contact with OM, and it ruined the memories for your H. I mention this because if you go on a trip your H will need your full attention. I would bet he will have triggers. Worse he has very very deeply ingrained fears now.

He has been rejected by you before, and even this last weekend was a rejection with you talking about separating and such and admitting that seeing OM got you to thinking about OM and your H in a negative light.

I know it is the fog, and I know it often takes a long time to get out of it, but I also realize that your H has had a lot rubbed in his face. He weakened once in his life due to the death of his parents and you left him. You felt he was not good enough and you chose another man.

I am not trying to make you feel guilty or down. I am trying to make you THINK about what you have and what you don't have. You don't have OM's love, you don't have his respect, you will never have his life unless his W leaves him, you claim the sex wasn't even that good.

YOu claim you should stay with your H because he puts up with a lot from you. Jenny, that is a lousy reason to be married or stay married, and frankly if you have told him this, he might as I would take it as a deep insult. If you don't LOVE him or feel you cannot use love as a verb with him, then you need to consider alternatives. OM is NOT the alternative, but you need to really and finally face this.

Jenny, I want your marriage to rebuild and be strong, but I will say this, it is not either OM or your H. It is very likely that the third alternative is there, neither of them. Oh! OM would be glad to see you, use you as he did, but you will never have him, and you might not have your H.

So you need to sit down and consider all three alternatives. If you want a deep and committed love, then your H is a choice to consider. If you want your freedom to chase whoever or whatever, then door number three is your choice. If you want to be used, then OM is your choice.

You need to make choices in your life. You need to see OM realistically and you need to see your H realistically, he is not the choice if you just want someone who "puts up with you" he deserves more of a commitment than that.

So please stop and think. Assess your situation, your desires, your needs, and then make a choice, but look realistically at your choices, OM, H, or on your own. See which of those choices meets your needs best and most fully.

Time for some HARD thinking and let the feelings alone. Then look at your H and see what is in him. YOu know what is in OM.

Evaluate your situation Jenny, don't just go bouncing around "feeling" everything is OK. It is not. Something is missing and you need to identify it.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you 1step, hearing that you have made it makes me feel so much better. Chances of running into OM is quite on the cards as he and his W live in the same suburb as us.

My girlfriend said to me once "Imagine if you were watching all this happen to a friend. What would you tell them?" and of course I'd tell them to wake up and not be so STUPID.

I read all the posts from BS's and I really want their marriages to work - I want their WS's to wake up. And yet, I'm just as bad as all their foggy spouses.

JL, I've thought about what you said about when I'm going to finally stop waffling and give my heart to my H and, of course, my H should have it completely. I just need to know how to give my heart back to my H.

H and I were so happy. I thought I'd get all the family photos out later and have a good look through them. I need to reconnect with the past we had - that's what I don't seem to be able to remember or get back. I know it's different now but it was all there once. It's like the bridge has been washed away, H is on the other side and I need to build a new, strong bridge to get to him.

Jenny

Edited: JL you were posting at the same time - I need to read what you've written.

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ:
<strong>
H and I were so happy. I thought I'd get all the family photos out later and have a good look through them. I need to reconnect with the past we had - that's what I don't seem to be able to remember or get back. I know it's different now but it was all there once. It's like the bridge has been washed away, H is on the other side and I need to build a new, strong bridge to get to him.


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jenny,
My H and I did that! Although it was not family photos that we looked at. It was pictures of us when we were dating. We also got out all of the old love letters that we wrote to each other way back when. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It was great! We really felt a connection when we did that. And I still do that every now and then. I really centers me. Especially given the type of affair that I had. I think that part of the attraction to these old flames, is the feelings that we once had for them. It so easy to recall those old feelings and before you know it, you are caught up in them again. What I had to realize is at one time I had the same intense feelings for my H. But everyday takes it's toll and you soon forget. I hope I am making sense here. Get out those pictures!

At any rate, you are doing fine. Keep on coming here as long as it takes. And listen to JL. He really helped me when I first came here. He probably does not remember, but he did.

1step

1step, I'm glad I finally had a good idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was looking at the photos the night H found out. I had them all over the bed and he joined me and started looking at them too.

I said "this is depressing" hoping he'd think I meant how old we'd got and he said "yes, it is" because he was bracing himself to ask me later if I was having an A.

I haven't really looked at them since but perhaps I should wait till he gets home and look at them together.

At least there won't be any of OM, they got burnt in our "ritual" fire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL, it seems to be only when I'm threatened with losing H that I can't bear the thought of life without him. That's what my mother gave me the 2x4 for. She told me to stop toying with him and playing with his emotions. It's horrible manipulative behaviour and I hate myself for it.

Thanks, JL and 1Step.

Jenny

^bumpity bump^ for CW if you're around.

When I threadjack I REALLY threadjack LOL

Jenny

Jenny...I'm sure that cwmac won't mind if I jump in here. I've been mainly reading on here lately and not doing much posting but I have been keeping up with my favorite people of which you are one!! I did start a thread to you to check on you but it got lost in the shuffle. I'm so sorry that you ran into OM. You know that I understand how hard that is, hence the fact that I see OM everyday at work. JL brought out some excellent points that I need to take to heart as well. I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you and please let me know how you're doing.

Jenny,

I think the pictures are an excellent idea. 1step, I remember you, but forgive me I don't recall that I said anything all that great to you, but I am glad I could help in some small way.

Jenny, I have been thinking about your situation all night and into today. As you can tell, it gets to several of us, and I hope cwmac can forgive us the threadjack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Here is what I suspect is the problem. You are expecting too much and you are expecting the wrong thing, hence you respond poorly to contact with OM.

First, let's go back to the top. Harley says NC because he knows the "feelings" linger and can reignite. So you are normal there.

Second, given that you know that contact with OM will trigger you, you need to stop putting your head in the sand, by hoping that you won't feel anything the next time, because of your love of your H. It doesn't seem to work that way. You need a plan to address the feelings you KNOW will come with contact. Put them in their proper place sort of:

"right! got the feelings now consider how happy H will feel when I tell him I have feelings for H...strong feelings."

You admit they are there and then you move on to thoughts of H. You need a strategy to handle them. They will fade with time but you won't forget. Just as you have a hard time bridging the gap this A caused. You know you and H had a past but you don't "feel" anything right now for it. You are right a new bridge is in order.

Now here is an age thing. As we get older our short term memory goes, but our long term stays, but consider this, given that your feelings for H 30 years ago have faded, don't you ever question if OM was SOOOO right 30+ years ago, and the feelings SOOOO strong wouldn't they have faded?

They did fade Jenny, that is my bet. What you are doing is projecting onto OM "feelings" you want to feel, but don't with H. He has become your fantasy.

So I will again ask you: What is missing from your life, that you feel the need to escape with someone?

I think you need to address that, perhaps it is your youth and you want it back. Sorry, no can do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You can NOT get your youth back, or the first time back, or first love, or first anything. But, you can make firsts with your H. You can become his lover. You two can become that sexy middle aged couple everyone envies with good reason. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think you are looking in the wrong direction for your romance, the past will never do. The future will do nicely thank you.

You need to stop and evaluate yourself. What is it you are looking for. When you know tell your H, he may already have it for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> or he may be very willing to help you get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your OM was nothing but a surrogate for something you are looking for, figure that out.

Jenny, I don't know if I am right, but I suspect we are getting closer. Please step back.

Finally, realize that what bothered your H was not that you saw OM, or that you triggered some feelings, it was that you allowed it to dominate you for a whole weekend. Do you see the difference? The sad but true fact is that your H has rightly or wrongly reconcilled himself to being your second choice. He is doing his best, but it is tough to have being second choice rubbed in your face. Interestingly, OM's W does not have that problem because he stated from the start he would not leave her, but you admitted you would have left H for OM. Hence, the occasionaly flash your H can handle, but a day or more of you dwelling on OM, hurts and gets to him. He is very very sensitive to you right now, and probably forever.

Must go. Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Lisa, nice to hear from you. I am going to set up on AOL now I have a computer that works and we can talk.

Last night H and I sat down in front of the computer and read this whole post together all the way through.

JL, your words struck such a chord in both of us. They helped me so much. Two of the options don't sound so good when you spell them out. One of them does and that is staying with H, loving H and being the w I used to be.

BTW I never say he puts up with me - he says it to me and he says it in a very affectionate way.

What can I say? As daughter used to say when she was a teenager "you're the bomb." (Don't know if that's a kiwi expression - I doubt it - all teenage expressions seem to be global.) Thinking about that expression of course it should be "you da bomb." which would be from the US.

But I digress. All I can say is thank you. Much food for thought and you've pushed us forward again.

Edited: JL we were posting at the same time again LOL I've read what you've written and ditto what I've said above - wonderful food for thought and right on the nail. And to think I paid money for MC. You really are in the wrong job.


Jenny

<small>[ May 26, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Jenny,

I am glad we are helping you and your H. You asked a question and I thought I would take a stab at it. You asked "How do I give my heart of my H?"

Well, first you are very honest with him. He needs to know your fears, your joys, your fantasies, your needs, things you feel you need emotionally.

He needs to know you trust him, you love him, and you want to be in his heart as well.

Notice something here, we are not talking about him being able to mend or provide all you need, we are talking about him KNOWING all you need, which suggests that you need to know what you need first.

But, mostly he needs to know he is first in your heart. He needs to know that you will protect him, not with lies but with honesty and compassion. He needs for you to symbolically hand him your heart to keep and protect.

I may be a little goofy, but I think he needs to know that YOU NEED HIM IN YOUR LIFE. That he is needed by you like no other man, not just for love, but for sex, for enjoying things, for talking, for NOT talking and just being.

He needs to know what to do for you.

Is this getting complicated? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well, it is. I think giving someone your heart means accepting things from them as well as giving things to them.

It is that free interchange of emotions, devotion, love,time, trust, care, and protection (Note this is soundling like Harley's four rules <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that means giving someone your heart. You must trust your H to do his best to take good care of you.

If you have questions ask the expert, your H. He knows what he needs to see and feel to understand that he has your heart and that he is #1 in your life. If you ask him, give him a few moments. He knows what he needs, but I am not sure he has the words for it. I suspect you will see it in his eyes or the hug he gives you, us guys are not so good with words you know.

Jenny, to give you heart means you see him as a human being with all of the strengths and weakness, success and failures that come with it and YET...he is the one, you hand your heart to. It not as romantic a notion as you think. It takes true evaluation of the man you are with to decide and to give your heart to.

A fantasy is NEVER a good choice, a real human who loves you is a very good choice.

Think about it, talk with your H, and them come back and let's see if we can sharpen the point abit.

God Bless,

JL

This thread is always open to KiwiJ, Lisa103, MrsX and Just learning and any others who want to constructively offer advice to same.

cwmac