We have had a great day! We had brunch at the Water Street then took the kids to a park right on the Ocean. they had so much fun...We talked, held hands, hugged and kissed. Before leaving for brunch I had changed our reservation for our camping trip to another cabin so we could accomodate our dogs. We talked about our upcoming camping trip. How fun it will be to get away and take all the dogs, etc...

We got back from the park and I had the confirmation in my hand and H asked if I had already paid the deposit or not? I told him that yes, I did pay the deposit and then he asked if it was refundable or not, I said I dont know, but I didn't think so...why? he said, well, I dont know if we will be going on this trip or not. If we are fighting at that time, I am not going to go...I was very calm and said to him that I didnt' think we could go the rest of our marriage without fighting, but that I didnt want to think about us NOT doing stuff or him moivng out. H admitted that it is his mentality right now that every time we fight or disagree or whatever, he gives up and wants out of the marriage.

Sooo, I asked him what he wanted to do cuz last week he said "I am going to work on this marriage, I am going to do the lessons, etc" I heard that he was going to stay in the marriage and work on falling in love with me and NOT think about moving out again...well that is not what he has been thinking all along. He told me that he doesn't KNOW if he is going to stay or not. He wanted to use this two weeks to see if he could fall in love with me or not. He is not going to fall in love with me in two weeks, but he said he is not even trying.

Anyway, I told him I do not want to be strung along and he said that some days he simply does not want to be here. Days where he is stressed or haivng a bad day. yesterday, BEFORE he even came home from the ACLS course he said he did not want to be married and wanted out. OK, does that not set us up for what happened last night or what? That proves his frame of mind.

Anyway, he is out looking at an apartment right now. Look, I dont know what I am doing. I am in such a chaotic state of turmoil, that I cant even see straight right now. Maybe this is the right thing. I am not doing any good with my destructive behaviour and he is not doing any good when he is mentally in the A still.

You guys always said that a Plan B was good for people who CANNOT do a good Plan A...well, I am not a good Plan Aer, while he is in the home anyway.

I just dont know anymore. I dont know what I want. I dont want a loveless marriage and H is convinced that he cannot fall in love with me anymore.

And just for the record, I am NOT a hard person to please...I have always been very passive in the marriage. Not making a big deal about occasions, etc..He always bought me nice things for our anniversary, like diamonds and such. An dhe said he would make this Mother;'s day up to me when he came back home. It was not the silk flowers that upset me, they are beautiful. I make silk arrangements as a hobby. I have made every silk arrangement in my home myself. It was the thought he didnt' put into it. I told him which florist to go to, cuz he ASKED ME. so I told him. I didn't say "you have to go to this florist and get this"...not I am not like that...I dont treat him as a child...he acts like a child. He is forgettful, immature and needs constant reminding of things. I am just fed up with his arrogance and attitude towards things.
I have said this before, that I come to this board to VENT my frustrations, and then I get them thrown back in my face by people. What is the purpose. Not everything I say in my posts, I say to my H....I post here for venting instead of LBing him.

if anyone would like to email me and talk to me please email or IM me. My IM handle is kcav86@msn.com and my email is momto3boys@caveda.com

In the meantime...please advice me on what plan to be in if H comes back and decides to move out. Thank you for your continuted support. I hope to hear from some of you. Thanks!

And just for the record, I am NOT a hard person to please...I have always been very passive in the marriage.

Passive people are hard to please...

NO, according to many peopel on this board, I cannot do a good plan A....I am destructive..

he's gone, he's moivng out now

no, I am angry at the whole situation. I am angry at myself at my H for jeopardizing everything. I am not angry at anyone here. write later...

Mom -

I know where you are at. As you know my WH husband moved out two Weds ago and has threatened to file for divorce (even saw a lawyer but he has not done anything). My WH also said he did not think he could fall in love with me again (I believe this is all fog talk). My WH is still in the mentality of the A (and he may even still be talking to her but can't prove it). I will tell you that I did not do a good Plan A when he was hear. I was constantly pushing him to work on our relationship and he was not ready to go there. I am doing so much better at Plan A now that he is out of the home. It is easier to detach myself from the situation and just focus on being cheerful and positive when he is around.

Is you husband for sure moving out?? I would suggest trying to do a good Plan A before moving to Plan B but I am still new at this too so...

Well mom, I'm with you. I know everyone here said that you should be happy with the silk flowers. But I have to disagree.

My WH is like yours, I am always last on his list. I have been too easy to please. Anything he gave me made me happy. Well guess what - each year he has given me less and less.

The Christmas before last, he got me nothing. I shopped for him, his brother and sister, his kids, and picked out nice gifts. He shopped for fellow workers, and 2 friends. He ran out of money for me. I was completely shocked.

Last Christmas he knew I wanted an aquarium. We were at Wal-Mart and he saw one for $20.00. He bought it and said Merry Christmas.

I just think that with these kind of men, if you expect very little, you will get very little. And next year you will get even less.

If WH decides to move out, let him go. Time for Plan B. Get your letter ready.

MT3B

Take it easy....

You are spinning yourself....

The hurt is making you dizzy....

You cannot recover a marriage until you find your own feet in recovery....

I don't want you to lose your marriage....

The score card has to be torn up...

There are ways to attract your husband back to you....

There are ways to push your husband away from you....

The kids are watching....

Take a breather...

Relax....

Stop making yourself someone who causes hurt to your husband...

There is no reward for calling OW names... the marriage is not about OW....

There is no reward for telling WS how he never gets it right as far as you are concerned....

Your anger is like a caustic acid ... burning you from the inside....

Relax and breathe...

I don't want you to hurt yourself, hurt your marriage, hurt your husband ....

Ask God to help you find the error or your ways...

Ask God to help you become a lighthouse in your marriage...

Stop being destructive to your own spirit...

Relax and breathe...

Pep

<small>[ May 09, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I know everyone here said that you should be happy with the silk flowers. But I have to disagree.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one says she should be happy with silk flowers.... This is not about any flowers or any gift ...

This is not even about being happy! Who could be happy after the devistation of an affair?

This is about MT3B's behaviors that are destructive and counter-productive to marital recovery.

If something is not working to recover her marriage, she should quit doing that and find a more rewarding response.

Her behavior is hurtful and undermines her self-esteem.

And she should stop.

Pep

Mom, I have a little different perspective about your situation. I am not saying the majority's opinions here are wrong, just that I see things a bit differently. I'd be curious what Steve will tell you.

I think you have been trying REALLY hard. You seem to have been hopeful several times, and then your hope gets dashed. For example, the pill situation. For example, feeling good about going to the MB weekend, buying sexy underwear, and then having your H tell you he wants to leave you and sleep with OW. You know, as I'm writing this, I feel kind of bad about some of the reactions you got. Please, I don't want to piss anyone off for saying that. I admit I could be dead wrong. Maybe because Mom and my situation started out so similarly. It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.

I got out my DSM-IV, which is the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders." I have read sveral times, and my therapist told me that being a BS we experience Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I just looked it up in the DSM-IV. I wish I could write everything it says, and how much it applies here. This one criteria of PTSD hit me in regards to you Mom. "Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event." Every time D2 does something that reminds you of his A behavior it triggers you. And I'm sorry, it seems he has done a lot of that. I am not condoning LBing him. However, I am saying that PTSD is a real psychological disorder. Maybe that is why when a person keeps getting retraumatized by the WS Plan B is necessary.

Last night my H and I were being intimate and something occured that totally triggered me. I didn't want it to happen. 95% of the time I do a pretty good job with Plan A, but I'm human. Luckily he listened to me, held me, and we got through it. Mom, that kind of reaction might not be happening for you now because D2's head is still in the A, and frankly he actually might still be having an A. Maybe that is why you are so frustrated. Truthfully I don't know what I would do in your shoes.

I hope you still feel free to come here and vent. Sometimes we just have to get it out. I would recommend the Retrouvaille Weekend if your H is not still in the A. There are great communication techniques to help in dealing with feelings without judgement. Hang tough! CV

Hi MT3B,

I'm sorry for the latest news. I know it's not easy, I went thru recovery after my H's first affair and we made it another 7 years, so I do know what you're feeling because my ex-H was not remorseful in the least, and he felt nothing but entitlement.

There's a way to look at how to approach recovery IMVHO. Think back to when you were dating your husband. You had no expectations and would not have been dissapointed with some of the recovery things he's done recently. He's making attempts, it's HARD for him too. He made a mistake, a terrible mistake, he knows that and he is still trying to get grounded.

I've read that most males, when faced with recovery of a marriage after an affair, fear more than anything the resentment. I see that in your words hon. And I recognize it from experiencing it myself.

If your love bank for your H is near empty, then perhaps Plan B is where you should be, according to Harley that's the Plan B indicator.

Are you losing love for your H? Does your resentment outweigh any love you have left for him?

Jo

mom -

Listen to everyone else. I think they are much more experienced than me. But I do know how you feel. I am not the right one to advise you. My kids are out of the house and I am pretty much done with WH.

You still have kids at home, so listen to others. But I do know EXACTLY how you are feeling. Do not feel guilty about it. You deserve to feel like you do.

Mom, everyone here has fallen in love with you, and in our own way, we are all trying to help you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong> It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not the first one to raise this thought, CV. Often, it is put like this: "My spouse is the wayward one who has caused all this damage, why am I the one who is expected to play nice and make everything alright again, as if I am the one to blame?"

Plan A isn't easy. And mom, I think you have made some good attempts at Plan A. You fall short when you get panicked, or when you don't feel like you've seen change, or enough of it, and you react. It's during these times when you need Plan A the most, when you go on autopilot and do things contrary to what your emotions are telling you.

You bite the bullet when he acts selfish and you put on a pleasant face. Sound like a doormat? No. You get your chance to show your pain and hurt, too, at the right times and in the right ways. Uncontrolled, seat-of-the-pants reactions will get you nowhere.

I know you have had some success doing Plan A mom. I think you have tasted the success. Give some thought to how you can do it more consistently, when you are stressed, or it all seems to be falling apart. Like right now.

What will you say to Dad when he comes back from apartment hunting? Possibilities:

a) "It's just like you to quit when things get tough. Let me help you pack!"

b) "I know you're thinking about her and you just want to be with her, so go do it! Don't let us stand in the way!"

c) "I know I haven't been easy to live with. I know you've been trying. Maybe it is best we separate for awhile to cool down."

d) "I know things seem bad right now. I get so confused. One minute I think things are going well and the next I am afraid that I am losing you. I react to my strong emotions because I love you so much and I want us to survive. It hurts me to the bone to see your confusion and sometimes the pain is so deep that I lash out. Maybe you're right about moving out. But in my heart I don't think that is the answer. I would prefer to keep working with SH and trying to get my emotions under control."

Give it some thought, Mom. What do you want to convey to Dad now, in the present situation? Then give some thought to HOW you will say it, using lots of "I" sentences. Convey your very real pain, without defensiveness and LBs. You can do it!

~ Snow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marital recovery cannot begin with one spouse feeling like a victim, BS OR WS.

As long as a BS wants to wallow in the unfairness, and the trauma and the drama of their WS's A, instead of moving forward in a productive, positive manner their will be no NEW marriage to BUILD. In this situation, these 2 partners have equal responsibility for the demise of love in the marriage. When a BS casts themselves in the victim mode and cannot see the old marriage through their WS's eyes, resentment is certain. Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he said that some days he simply does not want to be here. Days where he is stressed or haivng a bad day. yesterday, BEFORE he even came home from the ACLS course he said he did not want to be married and wanted out. OK, does that not set us up for what happened last night or what? That proves his frame of mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see you being quick to blame him for "setting us(you) up" in your behavior. How he acted or felt could not MAKE you behave in any other way than that of your own choosing. It's not his fault for how you react.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not everything I say in my posts, I say to my H....I post here for venting instead of LBing him.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said " but you CAN be" meaning he never gets me anything ahead of time and he never really THINKS of me...I tried to explain to him that he CAN think of me more and make me happy...but he just doesn't..never has, not sure if he EVER will!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said "when is it going to sink in with you"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just looked at him and said "oh your still mad at me cuz you cant go to Josh's house"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said to him that I thought he couldn't handle all this...this being honest and such... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said "well, that's just it, you never want to talk about anything, you just shut the door" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You told us exactly what you said Mom. This wasn't a vent to prevent a LB. However you want no constructive critism. For some reason it has to be about all the things he is so lousy at and how much he needs to fix and how disappointed you are, how he is so immature and needs to be reminded of everything. You say you don't treat him like a little boy but all of what you write shows us exactly how you DO do that. You get mad when we point it out, you do not want to see that you've got lots of work to do. I do not see you taking ownership of your part in the demise of your marriage.Why do I say that? Because your focus is on H. It's one thing to say you're changing but YOU would be farther along in recovery if you were DOING what you need to do as much as you SAY you are. The plan works but it has to be followed on both sides. Neither one of you is working the plan at this point, you just say you are.

If you don't want me to post to you just say the word, no hard feelings. I just see no reason to not give what is honest feedback. I will not support a pity party, it's simply not constructive to building a healthy new marriage. You've got to get honest with what your part in all this is if you want to build a better marriage and have a H who desires the same thing. Wishing you all the best!

Well, Iwish I'd of seen this post earlier! he's gone...HIS decision. snowbelle, I think I said all those things to him. he came home, said he put down deposit, but couldn't move in til Firday! I'll make a loooong afternoon short.

I just cant stand the pain. In my mind I am thinking we will work on this marriage, fall in love again, and live happily ever after. In HIS mind he is thinking he will work on the marriage, but he KNOWS it wont work out so he is ready to leave any minute now. His exact words "eventually i am probably going to leave anyway".....OK, so why torment me this way?

He packed his bags and lolly gagged for hours. Asking me if I want him to leave. Told him that he knew my answer. I told him that No I dont want him to leave, I want him to love me and stay here forever, but he doesn't want that! I told him I felt like I was living in a fantasy of my own having these thoughts of a happy family with two people in love with each other and growing old together, when that thought is the furthest from his mind. My kids were in teh backyard playing so happily and tears started rolling down my face. I held them back this whole time.

After an hour or so, I asked him if HE wanted to leave and he said "i dont know what I want" I asked him to clarify that for me...you dont know what you want NOW, TOMORROW, IN A WEEK, or IN A YEAR? He said "YES"

At one point he said "well, will you take me back in a few weeks" or something like that..I cant remember the exact wording...and my response was that he just cannot let me go..he wants me to still hold on the assumption that he IS going to come back...is that fair to me? He said it is just too painful to leave me!

anyway, he finally left and I asked him to take a good look around and to make sure he knew what he was leaving...he said he didnt' want to look, it was too painful.

He SWEARS he is not still in the A!!! I asked him if he was leaving to be with her and he said "no, that is not going to solve my problem and besides that, if I be with her then that ruins any chance of me reconsiling with you"!

God, I am so confused...he says these things and then doesn't do what his heart is telling him. Cant you see the love there? I know he does love me...what is it going to take?

I was great in my Plan A when he was oiut of the house! You ALL know that! I was great for about 3 or 4 weeks after he moved back home...I was great as a matter of fact until OW called him that day and he went back to Day 1! That is it! By golly! we WERE doing good until that day!

We had such a great day today! I asked him what changed and he said that, that is just the way it is...one minute you can be one way and the next you can be another way! the ROLLERCOASTER!

I think that this is the best thing. I really do...I dont know if I should do a plan A or go into B! He is not with OW..I am certain of that...

I said when he left to make sure this is what he wanted and he said "I may be back in 1/2 hour"

So now what?

No, I dont want anyone to stop posting to me...I know that I have had a hard few weeks. I have felt myself Pulling away from him. I am angry, and that is one of the healing processes to go thru, and unfortunately I cannot deal with it without resentment. I probably do resent him...I dont know...I do know that I dont really want to see him right now or talk to him...not because I am angry, but because it is just too painful.

Maybe, just maybe a Plan B will be what will work for him..I dont know, but I know that he doesn't want to be here nore do I want him to be here if he doesnt' want to be.

Also, anytime I have LB'd him, I always apologize for my behaviour in which h=case he comes back and says "no need to apologize, I deserve it all" I will say No you dont....anyway, must go do something to keep myself busy!

Please help me with my letter and what plan I need! I also need to figure out a visitation schedule! God help me!

momto3boys,

Review your plan A and laid down plan B ...

If you had a good plan A then serve him w/ plan B otherwise you have to close that plan A holes.

-rh-

This translation is from the alien to English dictionary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> eventually i am probably going to leave anyway </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Means: I am having serious doubts that you can change

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "i dont know what I want" I asked him to clarify that for me...you dont know what you want NOW, TOMORROW, IN A WEEK, or IN A YEAR? He said "YES"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Means: I have the same desire you do, to grow old together, but it HAS to be better than it has been for me to want to move forward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he said "well, will you take me back in a few weeks" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Means: I need some peace. I need time to think and find out what I have become and where I want to go. I think I already have the answer (YOU) and want some reassurance you want the same thing too BUT I still need some time to reflect and be sure you can change.

I am sorry MOM,

I am sorry also because I dont believe he is not still in the A. Where is he tonight? Where is he staying until Friday? OW has been too silent. Her call was to stir the pot and it worked.

I know you are hurting. I personally think you did much better than I would have.

I dont understand the mentality to save your marriage no matter what. abuse is abuse whether it's emotional or physical. Your H was very emotionally abusive to you. In my opinion you responded to that abuse period.

I hope Tx is a no fault state. Because I had other thoughts to why WS did the things he did.
Funny, all this has been done to NO THOUGHTS of those 3 boys. I hope he is a better physician than he is Father.

I am sorry if I hurt you, it's the last thing you need right now. I just never trusted the things your H was doing. Just a GUT feeling, more so the way you were reacting. I dont think the A ever stopped at least the emotional part.

I hope I am wrong.