Hi All,

Actually, you don't have to take my word for this, you can go read FL's previous posts. BT asked about her H's efforts during the A. I don't know the answer but here is what I do know. When the marriage was on the rocks and basically over according to FL, her H refused to let it die. He changed and for two and half years did all he could to make it better. How good was it? Good enough that FL eventually ended her A and fell in love with him again. FL felt and apparently feels the marriage should be saved, after being at a point where she felt it was over.

He was good enough to do these things for 2.5 years and turn her around. She admits he did almost all of it ALONE with no help or encouragement from her. Apparently, he poured alot of himself into this. She has offered no reason for him to have done this other than he loved her. In fact, she was encouraged to tell her H about the A here and I believe she finally decided to do this because she wanted the marriage to continue to improve.

His response has been predictable and pretty much by the book. He needs to heal and she needs to understand what she is witnessing is his healing. She does NOT have to be his servant nor do anything she does NOT want to do and she should NOT. However, she does need to let him express himself and she needs to understand most of what she is hearing is his pain, not how he will feel in the future.

FL, has had a hard time. She seems to struggle alot with her own issues, which may have had something to do with the state of the marriage before her A, her need for validation via an A, and her struggle to have patience with her H.

So my thoughts are very simple. I don't KNOW either of these two people other than by what is written here. I do know that her H is acting pretty normal for a man that just found out about a two year A and struggled to save the marriage alone. In fact, he sounds like many women in the same situation. I also know it is hard for FL to face this, deal with the anger, and have patience enough to allow the healing.

I think the best I can offer her is support in having patience and support to give this the time it needs to heal. I don't think she has lost her H, and I think he still loves her. The issues really is does she love him and if so will she stay faithful to him while this is going on. I don't think making her H the bad guy is going to help her stay faithful and give this time.

I agree his actions are hurtful, but I have seen few BSs that did not do hurtful things to the WS. Most often the BS ends up apologizing to the WS as the healing continues.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

By Dreamcatcher:
"...pepperband..you really cannot think that she deserves that treatment..and surely you don't think that his treatment of her is going to help this marriage recover..???"

Sorry ... I did not spot this question right away..

My answer: FL does not deserve humiliation. Neither does her H. Marriage recovery is impossible until BOTH people develop and hold on to an attitude of empathy for whatever their spouse struggles with.

This can take 6 months or longer... depending on an individual's resourses and coping skills.

It doesn't matter who chooses to grab onto empathy for their spouse first ... and hold on for dear life! FL or her H could make that decision at any time.

It is not a contest.

If FL can grab on first because she's the stronger of the two... then so be it. If her H is the stronger, he'll grab on to empathy first.

There is no scorecard for recovery... this is not about getting someone back when they hurt you...

It takes TIME.... and this means YEARS to really get into a safe place in the M for both WS and BS...

And calling someone's spouse derogatory names because he is struggling today, May 12th ...when discovery was March 21.... Seems darn unsympathetic, countert-recovery.... and a mis-use of "rightious anger" toward the BS.

Give him a chance!
Pep

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

BlessedTime said:

"I wasn't sure if you read the note just before yours as we were posting at about the same time.
The one where I called him a '[censored]'... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> :


Where is your Christian-brotherly love for the "[censored]" with the broken heart?

Maybe you should start a new thread ... and we could air out our differences...

Pep

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

FL,

I've seen quite a few disrespectful judgements flying here. I am a WS. My W was very angry.

For the first few months after d-day I was VERY self absorbed. Everything was about ME, ME, ME. It took me a while to learn to be empathetic to my wife's pain and realize it wasn't all about me.

I see this same thing going on with you. For example, when your H treats you poorly (and nobody is saying he hasn't), you focus on yourself instead of trying to understand where he's really coming from.

He's really hurting. Men express pain and fear with anger.

I agree with Pep and some others. You are expressing little empathy for him. I think he picks up on this and it just adds to his hurt and anger.

You do need to set boundaries and communicate when he has said or done something hurtful, but at the same time, I'd encourage you to put him first when this happens. Here's how it could go:

Him "Your mouth is dirty"

You "What I did must have hurt you badly. I'm so sorry. I love you and want to help you get past this. Is there more you want to tell me?"

Him "I don't know if I can get past this."

You "I hope we can because would love to kiss you again. Kissing you helps me to feel close to you and I want nothing more than to be close to you."

You have to work at acknowledging HIS feelings and hurt if you ever expect him to start considering your feelings.

Fairness doesn't even come into the equation. If you are the one who's chosen to take the lead in fixing the mess, you may find yourself putting your own needs second for a while to get where you want to be.

Many BS's here have done the same thing. They can tell you a thing or two about things "not being fair".

Low

Pep, you are right, it was very wrong of me to call FL's H a [censored].

I am a farm lady and that is not the worst name in the English language!...it just means a foolish person.

I still believe H's words of self-righteousness about her lips not being worthy to be kissed, is a disrespectful, humiliating statement.
Especially since he likes those lips giving him OS...Come on guys? Is that a LB or what?

Doesn't FL DESERVE to be forgiven and treated like a forgiven lady should be treated?
It has been 7 weeks since D day...Punishment time should be over. He is not doing Plan A whatsoever.

OF COURSE H is still hurting; so is FL knowing she caused the hurt. Yet a person can have heartaches without purposely hurting others.
That is what I truly believe and try to do in all areas of my life.

JL, sure he tried to work on the marriage when he didn't know there was another man involved.
It is easy to be nice and kind when not put to the test.

He is put to the test now and he better start passing, score some love points, or FL is going to end up back with the Internet chats or the OM, in search of someone that is kind and affectionate to her!

Sincerely, Julie

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

FL,
I see this has set off a real debate, but I want to bring the focus back on you. That's why you are here, to get a little help and encouragement. Everyone is making there POV heard, but I want to remind you how far you have come and how far you have to go. Yes, your H's actions made you more vulnerable to your temptation because of his rejection. You failed, but not completely. That is great. We all fail in this process. We all do the wrong thing from time to time. Right now your H is doing the wrong thing. However, you mentioned something about hinm doing sweet thinks also. Let's look at them. What has he done? How did he pursue you to bring you back?

You have learned you can choose not to go back to the A. It is wrong for anyone here to justify any reason for an A. You know that and I want to encourage you to follow that path. It will not lead to happiness, but your destruction. I understand your pain and am sorry to say that you may have to endure it a while. But if you hang in there like your H did over the last two years, you can have that intimacy back. I can suggest to you what to do, but you already know what it is that has to be done. Please have heart and keep your chin up. It will improve, but it will take time and patience. The pain is worth the reward.

FL, remeber God is with you and please don't forget to smile,

Christ's Love
Roman

BT:

"Although you kinda picture FL's husband as a saint during the years of FL's affair. Was he all that good of a husband? Was he trying as hard as you say to heal the marriage? (I realize he did not know about the affair) "

Speaking as a BS in a similar position, but with the "effort" 2 rebuild reversed (I'm here, my W isn't interested), I have only one word 2 say 2 you in answer 2 these 2uestions: IRRELEVANT.

"Did he give FL the love, affection and attention she needed during those years before the affair? If so, could that have helped her NOT to stray?"

Again, irrelevant. These 2uestions all seem 2 be directed at justifying the A, and there is no justification for the A.


Forgiveness? After only 7 weeks since D-day? And while contact continues until what, a week or 2 ago????? Give it time. A LOT of time.

My W's A wasn't as "intense" as FL's, but it lasted a whole lot longer. I found out over 2 years ago, and have been working ever since. I get angry, because my W is taking so long 2 come out of the fog. We all backslide, some of us a lot.

What we do in the long haul is what's important.

FL and her H both need 2 give a lot more empathy than they have been demonstrating 2 date. So do my W and I.

TRUST can be rebuilt, but FL (and possibly my W) will have 2 be a whole lot more truthful if they expect 2 earn the BS' trust.

FORGIVENESS can be given as a gift at any time, but it sure helps if the act that seems 2 require forgiveness has ENDED.

-2long

yes, this has set off quite a debate, so much so i didn't even know how to jump back in. roman, thanks for trying to reel me back in. your post is what got me to start a reply, however, work has been really busy today so i have been working on this post thru out the day. i do feel somewhat more focused now that i have finished it.

first, i realize only I have access to see all parts of the relationship with my H. you all only see what i write about. no need to debate if my H is a jacka** or not, he is not. he has his faults, i have mine.

i think all can agree, i need to get emotionally stable again. i cannot do anyone any good when i am like i have been the last few days. towards that end, today i will

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">exercise for 60 min</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">eat healthy</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">drink plenty of water</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">spend at least 30 min reading either directly from the bible or from various spiritual books i have (i picked up a new book by Stormie Omartian called Lord, I Want to be Whole, the Power of Prayer and Scripture in Emotional Healing. roman, i tried to find the book by Beth Moore you originally suggested, Breaking Free, but it was not on the shelves once again.)</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
i understand that these actions help my emotional well being, and i have not been consistent enough in sticking to theses actions, especially when i start to feel down. when i am down, i need to increase these actions, not let them fall to the wayside.

up until this issue, i believe i have been doing a very good job allowing my H to heal. i have answered questions, i have listened to his pain and i have offered much comfort without asking for much in return. i have showed him much empathy. now this is MHO, right? so i asked my H this morning what his opinion is and he told me, yes, i have been very good about how i have been handling myself and supporting him. these are his words and i have to assume he is being honest, right??

certainly, we have had minor issues, but nothing that did not get quickly enough resolved. i do believe my H when he says he wants the marriage to survive.

JL, you are always so good at getting me to see things clearly. so help me here if you can...

after all H and I have been thru, my biggest fear continues to be... my H only worked so hard on the marriage because of the financial implications a divorce would mean to him. i acknowledge that even wondering if that concept has any truth to it is a very harsh judgement against him. but i DO have good reasons for having this thought, the biggest one is, early on when i first mentioned divorce, he, himself kept saying how unfair that would be to him because if he had known our marriage was not going to last, he would not have given up his job and become a freelancer, something he did over 10yrs ago!!! give me a break. then i found that he started storing money in his drawer, there was $3500 in there when i found it. now this is stuff that happened early on, he eventually stopped doing those kinds of things and really did start to make some serious changes. and yes it took me a long time to believe in those changes and want to re-commit. but to tell you the truth... considering everything, i think it was very justifiable.

so accepting the fact that no one but he can provide a truthful answer to the question, why do you want to be married to me? and that the answer he gives is because of who i am and not for any other reason but that, no one but i can decide to accept his answer or not. i don't believe i have really done that deep down. how can i deep down get myself to accept his answer?

i don't think i am believing him because his answer certainly does not seem consistent with his actions lately. but maybe the point is i just CANNOT look at any of his actions too closely right now. what i need to focus on is his actions from prior to march 21.

JL, i know you must be rolling your eyes at me now. what can i say, i am not trying to be difficult, i am trying to identify what trips me up.

so why is this kissing thing such a big deal to me?? i am sure i have explainded this before but here goes again... one of the last, if not the last, straw on the camel's back for me was this exact thing. this would of been prior to the A, HOWEVER, it was AFTER i had already been involved in chatting on the internet. in other words, our relationship was in terrible shape, neither of our needs were being met. he was not willing to go to counsoling at the time or do anything else, HOWEVER, i accept that I was not effectively communicating to him how bad things were for me. i tried to communicate but the bottom line is that I was not effective. so one day i tell him, in a nice way, not like yelling about it or anything, i just told him, i missed kissing him. so he said he would try to kiss more. then next time we were intimate he did try, and then he quickly stopped. later all he said was, he is just not into kissing anymore, "there is no problem, i'm just not into kissing." well, that outlook just killed me. how was i supposed to deal with that kind of attitude?? hence, i gave up and just wanted out. this may sound like a stupid reason to decide to divorce a guy but that was when i internally made that decision.

Now i realize that at this point, all this is IRRELEVANT. i am just explaining why this issue hits me so hard. i personally think it is extremely understandable. i don't think my H ever acknoweldged how hurtful his attitude was back then. of course at this point all i can choose to do is forgive that behaviour, it is well in the past, it is irrelevant now.

now to balance things out... here are some good things that have occured between us. it is good for me to list them because it brings them back into the forefront of my brain.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">last friday we went to driving range together and had a nice time</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">last wed H shared with me in detail what his thought process has been over the last 7 weeks, how he started to think divorce would not be so bad, that the kids would indeed survive but then how 2 sundays he heard a very strong message in the sermon on how we are supposed to forgive and that changed his mindset.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H asked me today if i would like to play raquetball with him this afternoon, if i could get out of work early. unfortunately i cannot today but i think we might be able to tommorow morning</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sat, at a time i was feeling down, he told me in very direct and strong words that he in fact does want us to have a very long and happy marriage. (the ironic part of that is, because of the sharing he did on wed and because of the stmts he made i just mentioned, i felt comfortable telling him i missed kissing him)</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
one last thing worth mentioning, when i told him i missed kissing him, i told him why, because for me kissing makes it more personal (he says kissing is not that symbolic to him, which surprises me, is that a "guy" thing??). he told me that whether we kiss or not, any activity that goes on between us is more than physical to him, there are emotions there for him. and i believed him. so then i said, i understand that you do not want to kiss now. is there some other way you can communicate to me that what we are doing during SF is more than just physical because that would help me? and after a few minutes he stroked my check with his hand. and i said so when you do that, are you having emotions of closeness? and he said yes. and then i said, can you express those feelings in words right now while you are stroking my cheek so i can fully understand and take comfort in that touch. and he did.

now you guys tell me, how could i have handled that any better than i did?????

i still don't understand how it went from what i thought was a very productive conversation to him attacking me in the evening saying i should not be asking for ANYTHING from him. concluding with the comment of exactly why he does not want to kiss me.

what exactly am i supposed to conclude from all this?

and i guess all i can conclude after reading what you all have said is that he is hurting and i need to have tougher skin and more empathy.

thanks to everyone that posted to me. it took a while but in the end perhaps it all helps.

he will not be around this evening and i must admit i'm kinda glad. some time with just the kids will be good for me.

and for those of you wondering, i have told him that for right now, i'm not comfortable having any sexual activity occuring between us. i personally hope that does not last for long, i truely do enjoy making him feel good. but i need space right now. he said that is fine, he understands. i don't know if this is a step back or not, time will tell.

what exactly am i supposed to conclude from all this?

and i guess all i can conclude after reading what you all have said is that he is hurting and i need to have tougher skin and more empathy.

He's on his own emotional roller coaster and you will notice his highs and his lows... just fasten your seatbelt and HANG ON for dear life!
You can make it!

Pep

Hi FL.
I hope you read that I appologized for calling your H a [censored] (foolish person) in the way he was treating you.

I see there are lots of GOOD things he does that you hadn't mentioned.

Pepperband posted a thread to me called 'Blessed Time Julie'....It is probably on page 2 now but we did discuss your situation quite a bit and you might want to read it and perhaps post a message.

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
P.S. FL, I am pretty sure you will answer this honestly...Have you been in contact with the OM today or yesterday? Don't be afraid of 2X4's.
Everyone here just wants to help you save your marriage.

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

pep and julie, first thanks for taking the time to read my post. i didn't realize how long it got!!!

believe me, i am trying to just hang on tight. i really thought i let go of all anger i have towards H for the way things were before, looks like maybe i have not. i need to keep working on forgiveness.

julie, i have absolutely NOT been in contact with OM. i certainly don't mind you asking. and i am answering honestly. and yes i saw your apology about the jacka** comment, no worries. the contact from last week only strengthens my resolve that i want nothing to do with that stuff anymore. for no other reason than i am better than that type of behaviour and i deserve much more than being some guy's lover. i can imagine there are those of you that are saying... what about the part that says... i don't want to hurt my husband again. i know this sounds awful but that is not the first thought that comes to mind as i think about why i don't want to get back involved with OM. i don't know why that is. that should be #1 on the list, but it does not show up until #3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> not sure what that says about my feelings for my H.

I think the thing is, i am not feeling close to him today, i just am not. that is not to say i will not work on my actions and act lovingly still. while at the dinner table i gave him a bit of a shoulder rub. i feel like a bit of a phony, but i just have to keep reminding myself, those are just feelings i am having today, there have been many days i have felt close to him, i just have to get myself back there again.

unfortunately i have NOT made this a good day for eating, i did great all day, i am blowing it tonight. but i will stop as of now. i was counting on being able to take a long walk tonight but now it is raining here. i have to find some way to get my heart rate up for 60 min. i know, i can climb up and down the stairs for 60 min!!! ok, i am kidding. i'm still thinking the rain will let up eventually. besides with H gone for the evening, i have to wait till the kids are in bed anyway, maybe by then it will be done raining.

anyway, i am doing so so tonight. i started getting uptight as i was coming home from the office. part of me says, Karen, do you want to be right or do you want to be married? and the other part answers i want to be married but i don't want to be taken advantage of.

H called me right before i left office. with a very pleasant voice. "hi honey, how has your day been." then without skipping a note... listen i was wondering if you can stay home late on friday so i can golf (he already golfed this morning!!) well i had no mtg on the calander so i just said sure, no problem. besides i have lab time in the evening on thurs that may go as late as midnight, so i won't be anxious to get into office early (of course i would love to sleep in a bit but i love to see the kids too). golfing makes him happy. he has been doing a lot around the house lately too. in fact he did a lot of yard work today. and he did ask me to play racquetball with me today (something we have not done since d-day, something we started doing about 1yr ago as a commitement to each other to have fun together. i have asked him, he has not wanted to, actually we almost did last friday and then we went to driving range instead, and that was my choice not his)

looks like i am very long winded again. time to go quiz son on state capitals.

thanks again, i'll check out that other topic later.

FL,

Well, this is an interesting post. I will do my best to answer your questions. You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, you are always so good at getting me to see things clearly. so help me here if you can...

after all H and I have been thru, my biggest fear continues to be... my H only worked so hard on the marriage because of the financial implications a divorce would mean to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let's get this idea put to bed. Yes, the financial implications were probably considered, so were your children, you, him, etc. When one decides to commit like your H apparently did, it is usually done with the Old Ann Landers question "Am I better off with them or without them?" I think that is a fair question. So I think financial was a consideration, but so were many other things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i acknowledge that even wondering if that concept has any truth to it is a very harsh judgement against him. but i DO have good reasons for having this thought, the biggest one is, early on when i first mentioned divorce, he, himself kept saying how unfair that would be to him because if he had known our marriage was not going to last, he would not have given up his job and become a freelancer, something he did over 10yrs ago!!! give me a break.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, he took a risk based on your earning ability. Many spouses do this. Usually it is the woman that starts a new something, or even a family based Co. on her H's earning ability. It puts a lot of pressure on the primary wage earner. That is why men tend to really focus on their job and their work. The pressure can really get to you. Is it getting to you??? I don't find his comment strange, as women make it constantly on this board.
They give up a "career" and then H finds his "soulmate" and she is left high and dry. It is so common for the non-wage earner to think this. So I don't think his thoughts are unusual. He left himself exposed by doing what he did.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> then i found that he started storing money in his drawer, there was $3500 in there when i found it. now this is stuff that happened early on, he eventually stopped doing those kinds of things and really did start to make some serious changes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if you announced you wanted a divorce, I think his response is again pretty rational and very normal. A lot of woman have done the same thing. Men do the same thing when they feel they are going to get fired. They start saving money. To me these are very normal responses to the uncertainty in his life that occured because he became dependent on you and then you announced you wanted a divorce. I don't think they say a thing about his love for you or why he decided to work so hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and yes it took me a long time to believe in those changes and want to re-commit. but to tell you the truth... considering everything, i think it was very justifiable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it may have but it was also true that you had your own "savings account" on the side in the form of the OM. This also allowed you the luxury of deciding at your leisure when and if you would come back to him. He must have done a pretty darned good job. Or OM must have been a loser.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so accepting the fact that no one but he can provide a truthful answer to the question, why do you want to be married to me? and that the answer he gives is because of who i am and not for any other reason but that, no one but i can decide to accept his answer or not. i don't believe i have really done that deep down. how can i deep down get myself to accept his answer?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your assessment is right about yourself. How do you accept his answer? I don't know. Let me offer you some ideas. One you don't need him financially, so you are independent of him therefor the choice to choose is without financial risk. He has done what he said he would do, and further he has stayed even after your A, strongly suggesting that he is commited to trying to make this work. The issue he struggles with is whether you are committed to him? You are not for a variety of reasons and your A makes him even more concerned. He is the one at risk here NOT you. You can choose to believe him, and invest in the marriage with a lower level of risk than he can. But, he is and you are not.

Hence he is worried and I think that is one big reason for the huge rollercoaster he is on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i don't think i am believing him because his answer certainly does not seem consistent with his actions lately. but maybe the point is i just CANNOT look at any of his actions too closely right now. what i need to focus on is his actions from prior to march 21.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see his actions... he is still there inspite of you telling him you wanted a divorce. He is still there inspite of working for over 2 years and then finding out that you were in an A the whole time, making him look like a prize fool. He is still there although you have not been very stable lately.

Other than somehow avoiding the emotional rollercoaster YOU put him on, thereby acting a little more consitently and kindly, I am not sure what more he could do in the way of actions. I suspect he is wondering as well. I'd say his actions are matching his words pretty well. Look at what you have said about this past week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, i know you must be rolling your eyes at me now. what can i say, i am not trying to be difficult, i am trying to identify what trips me up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think doing this is a good idea. But, when you identify what trips you up, take a look in the mirror. It seems to someone on the outside what is tripping you up are the consequences of your actions. Not some plan on his part to hurt you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so why is this kissing thing such a big deal to me??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because it is, is my answer. Some people feel that kissing is more intimate than sex. Some people will kiss anyone. Some people kiss very rarely. I don't know, but it is important to you, hence when your H is withdrawing he knows how to tell you he has withdrawn. He doesn't kiss you. However, there is something you need to understand, doing is this is NOT necessarily to hurt you. He can obviously hurt you in many ways verbally. He is doing what many women do to men. When they are made at their H, the don't talk to them which doesn't bother men as much as women out like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So they escalate to NO SEX, that usually does the trick. The man figures out he is in big trouble for something. Message received. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i am sure i have explainded this before but here goes again... one of the last, if not the last, straw on the camel's back for me was this exact thing. this would of been prior to the A, HOWEVER, it was AFTER i had already been involved in chatting on the internet. in other words, our relationship was in terrible shape, neither of our needs were being met. he was not willing to go to counsoling at the time or do anything else, HOWEVER, i accept that I was not effectively communicating to him how bad things were for me. i tried to communicate but the bottom line is that I was not effective. so one day i tell him, in a nice way, not like yelling about it or anything, i just told him, i missed kissing him. so he said he would try to kiss more. then next time we were intimate he did try, and then he quickly stopped. later all he said was, he is just not into kissing anymore, "there is no problem, i'm just not into kissing." well, that outlook just killed me. how was i supposed to deal with that kind of attitude?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Clearly, he was much more effective in communicating to you that the relationship was awful for him, than you were. Hello, what did you think it meant? It meant he was withdrawing because you already had into the internet, and then wanting a divorce. Don't you see he wasnt' kissing you because he did NOT want to. He knew how important it was for you and what the message it sent to you, and that message was NOT what he was feeling. He attitude was the same as your: the relationship was in a bad way and he was not happy. Hence his message to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hence, i gave up and just wanted out. this may sound like a stupid reason to decide to divorce a guy but that was when i internally made that decision.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was not the kissing, it was the lousey relationship FL. You had a big role in it as did he. He obviously realized this and decided to change his behavior. But, the message was sent to you, that he was NOT happy. You simply looked inward and decided to leave, rather than exploring why he would feel that way.

I must say your focus on things is mostly inward, and that really needs to change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now i realize that at this point, all this is IRRELEVANT. i am just explaining why this issue hits me so hard. i personally think it is extremely understandable. i don't think my H ever acknoweldged how hurtful his attitude was back then.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you ever acknowledged how hurtful your behavior was toward him? You threaten divorce, you threaten to remove financial support. You with draw into the internet and I am sure you did and said a few other things. I would say this was truely a team sport, but you have not acknowledged what you did to him during this period. Even now FL, you are mostly focussed on yourself, not him.

What you did not acknowledge as well was that HE changed. He worked on the marriage and you left the marriage for an A. What has changed in your approach to your H now? How do you see him differently? I see you thinking about old hurts, wondering if he is there for the money, you must make a ton of money for him to hang there for the money. If it is not approach 6 figures, he needs to rethink things if money is the ONLY reason he is there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> of course at this point all i can choose to do is forgive that behaviour, it is well in the past, it is irrelevant now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is a great idea, but have you ever asked for his forgiveness for you behavior during that period. It is not easy to be married to someone who does NOT trust you, and threatens divorce on a frequent basis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
one last thing worth mentioning, when i told him i missed kissing him, i told him why, because for me kissing makes it more personal (he says kissing is not that symbolic to him, which surprises me, is that a "guy" thing??).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I am aware of more than few women that don't like to kiss except underspecial conditions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he told me that whether we kiss or not, any activity that goes on between us is more than physical to him, there are emotions there for him. and i believed him. so then i said, i understand that you do not want to kiss now. is there some other way you can communicate to me that what we are doing during SF is more than just physical because that would help me? and after a few minutes he stroked my check with his hand. and i said so when you do that, are you having emotions of closeness? and he said yes. and then i said, can you express those feelings in words right now while you are stroking my cheek so i can fully understand and take comfort in that touch. and he did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what more do you want???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i still don't understand how it went from what i thought was a very productive conversation to him attacking me in the evening saying i should not be asking for ANYTHING from him. concluding with the comment of exactly why he does not want to kiss me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Pep answered that one for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what exactly am i supposed to conclude from all this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is hurt and he is struggling with trust, feeling like a complete fool, and his love for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and i guess all i can conclude after reading what you all have said is that he is hurting and i need to have tougher skin and more empathy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, I think you have it. Empathy would be huge for him


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and for those of you wondering, i have told him that for right now, i'm not comfortable having any sexual activity occuring between us. i personally hope that does not last for long, i truely do enjoy making him feel good. but i need space right now. he said that is fine, he understands. i don't know if this is a step back or not, time will tell.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes time will tell. I think you need to stop and consider the work he did. I realize that while in the "fog" of the A you probably did not appreciate or perhaps notice most of it, but see if you can remember what he did. You see we often do for our spouse what we hope and wish they would do for us. So his past action are probably a good clue as to how he needs to be treated right now.

God Bless,

JL

jl, thanks for the feedback.

i understand what you are saying, it is reasonable that the financial worry was high on his list of concerns. (yes i do make over the amount you mentioned) being the main bread winner has become a big stresser to me, especially because the company has been messing up so much. there have been layoffs occuring for the last 3yrs now (i work in telecommunications, research and development). the overall morale for everyone around me is at a major all time low. the higher ups have messed up this company so bad. our stock was in the 70's now it is under 4. i have poured a lot of sweat into this job, 18yrs worth. i really took pride in the job i did. it is really hard to see it falling apart. it is really hard to constantly see the axe coming down on people all around me. so far i have not been laid off. partially because i have managed to keep myself in the right places but i have been able to do that because of the reputation 18yrs of hard work has earned me. even so no one can feel very safe. and more than anything, i wish i could just chuck it all in and go into teaching. if we sold our vacation house i could. but no one, including me, really wants to see that happen. we built the place from scratch and we really are very proud of it. the kids love the place too. so yes the pressure is getting to me. i can accept that his worry about this is normal. and more importantly, that just because he had this worry, it does not mean that was the #1 reason he re-committed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue he struggles with is whether you are committed to him? You are not for a variety of reasons and your A makes him even more concerned. He is the one at risk here NOT you. You can choose to believe him, and invest in the marriage with a lower level of risk than he can. But, he is and you are not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">on this i must object. yes i am commited to him. i was not. but i am now, even though i was stupid to contact OM 2 weeks ago. the risk of being hurt is very high for both of us. yes i can financially fly on my own. but risking my heart is very important to me. and i AM investing in my marriage. that is why i am still here. you can question my intent all you want, but i know i am trying very hard here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Clearly, he was much more effective in communicating to you that the relationship was awful for him, than you were. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i don't want to get all caught up in this except to say, he was not effectively communicating to me at all. he kept telling me in words everything was fine, our marriage was fine, fine, fine, fine, no problems, no reason for counsoling, he was happy. this is what he kept telling me JL, for years, long before i even got on the internet. but his actions told me much differently. we did bearly nothing together. i worked and when i was home he was gone, golfing or whatever, and i cleaned the house and did stuff with the kids, just me and the kids, my life was a single mom with a guy that slept in the same bed with me. ok, i'm sure we all know i am exaggerating some, but not 100%. he was out of this marriage for a very long time. he would not even acknowledge he was out of it. in counsoling, he finally admitted that he disconnected from me years ago and then got comfortable that way. so maybe he was not lying, maybe he convinced himself everything was fine, because he could not figure out how to make it better.

i have left out a big piece to this picture. i have been to ashamed to talk about it. after it happened i buried it. but that is not working.

i will post this in a new topic tommorow. H just pulled into garage.

Just a quick comment for JL.
You might not have noticed FL's previous post as you and she were both posting at exactly 8:14.

FL,

Well I am delighted to fing out I am wrong and that you are committed to the marriage. I am also sorry to hear about the goings on at your Co. It makes for a very very stressful situation and it sure makes it hard to deal with everything else.

There is one thing I want you to know. I expect to here your side of these things. You asked my opinions and you got them, but they are based on what I read and don't read so more information is always a good thing.

You mentioned in a post that was being posted at the same time as mine that you thought you were over things in the past. It is clear you are not, as you stated. However, that realization is an important one. You know some additional triggers and that is good.

Have you ever talked with your H about your fears concerning your job? Do you two have a plan if your job was to vanish? You two really ought to have some ideas about these things. In today's world such issues are very common. The good news is it sounds as if you are very good at what you do.

No more to say at the moment. I must get back to work.

God Bless,

JL

if i get laid off the closest thing we have to a plan is for me to teach at the college i was teaching at before if they would still have room for me. i was offered a full time job there before. i keep in touch every once in a while. unfortunately the pay would be less than 1/2 of what i make now. H has been looking for a photography job, no luck so far. his real dream is to own a furniture store, but that seems very risky to me right now, requiring a large starting capital. i'm trying to keep an open mind. i am helping him put numbers together in a business plan.

i have something else i want to share but i hesitate. but then i have shared so much why stop now and i obviously can use the help...

since d-day, SF started out completely one sided, then one night we made love and for me it was wonderful and for him he told me later he felt nothing. ok, i can accept that. after that there were a few more times every once in a while but the positions were much less "personal" ones, if that makes any sense. internally i started feeling worse and worse. it was all feeling more and more physical only and i just hated that. maybe that is just my problem, he has told me it is not just physical only for him. but then one night (yes, about 2 weeks ago and yes i responded by getting on line the next night when he went out with a friend, which is the night i IM'd OM, THIS WAS A VERY BAD CHOICE, i know that now) he started touching me but it felt so rough.

i told him (maybe this was an awful thing to say????) i forget the exact words, we were in bed. i specifically asked him we could just focus on him that night. i was feeling things were getting more and more impersonal. i guess basically i asked him, in a round about way,NOT to touch me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> that must of really hurt him. his response was anger, i am his wife and if he wanted to touch me he would. now i'm not saying he forced himself on me while i kicked and screamed but he positioned himself in a way that kinda pinned me down. it was extremely unpleasant although i didn't let on how unpleasant it was. i just quietly let him do what he wanted.

we have not talked about this at all ever since. i think about it now, it is very possible he may not even realize how bad the above night felt for me. like an idiot, all i have done is made things worse now by talking about kissing (my way of trying to bring it all up by saying i want to be close but needing it to be more loving). then i get all upset for 2 solid days which resulted in us saying we should just do nothing sexual for the time being, which saddens me too because i will miss being able to make him feel good. there were times when that was actually good, even though one sided. i was feeling closer to him.

last night when he came home and we went to bed and cuddled some he asked if i was rethinking my need to just do nothing for a bit. i hesitated but then said no, i prefer not to right now.

how do i help straighten all this out now???

Be certain of this...

everything you posted about your H's behavior

mood swings
rough sex
cold sex
loving acts
money saving

is all PAR for the course.....

Remember he is wrestling with himself .... particularly with his TAKER...

and rest assured.... this is a process and what you see now

will cycle some more

but in the end

about 2 years

your H will emerge a new man

and you also will have

evolved

you are both undergoing a re-birth

and it's messy
and painful
and ugly
and beautiful
and

necessary....

Learn how ro effectively deal with YOUR anxiety.... not his.

The title of your thread is VERY significant... it labels what YOUR anxiety issues are... that you are not important or significant...

Feeling this way... does NOT mean it is true.

IF you were not important to your H... would he suffer so much for you?

Pep

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

pep, i guess i need to post that all out and keep reminding myself. it's good to hear it is normal.

keeping focused on my reactions and my attitude is the best advice.

i think i may back off this site some. it might do me some good to just relax, be loving, but relaxed.

we had fun together playing raquetball.

as always thanks to everyone, this site has been extremely helpful for me.

FL,

I think your situation with your H and intimacy requires "radical honesty" which sounds horrible doesn't it? What it really means, as you know, is that you tell him how you feel about this, and what triggers you. You need to know how he feels and what triggers him (I am betting he is seeing movies in his head).

I have another completely off the wall thought for you. Just something for you to consider and think about.

I don't know exactly what you do for a living, but I have some rough ideas. I am guessing in your work you are no nonsense, logical, relentless in getting the job done, and good at your job. Generally, traits that are associated with a male.

Your H has a job that is more "artistic", surely not structured, and very unsteady, especially economically.

Have you two noticed what you both want to do??

You want to become a teacher. A nuturer, someone that guides young people into life.

Your H wants to own and run a funiture store.

I have often puzzled as to why you seem so emotionally fragil while doing the work you do. I also puzzled about what I am GUESSING is your H's need to do masculine things including not helping much and surely not sharing feelings.

Then last night as I was working on a proposal it hit me. I wonder if they are working against type and they are making up for it by being hyper the other way at home. You want to be a female, and treated carefully, protected, safe. Your H does NOT want to be dependent on you, and worries whether or not he, since you take care of the financial end,looks less of a man if he helps you around the house, and yes forgives you for what you have done.

I am just wondering if a lot of the issues between you has to do with neither of you being where you really want to be. I don't mean either of you don't like and are not good at what you do for a living. I just wonder if both of you don't get out of it what you need emotionally to be steadier within yourselves.

Does this make sense to you? You see FL I am not as worried about your A as you think. I suspect your H may not be as worried about it as much either except that it brings up other issues within himself and surely adds insecurity to his life. What I wonder about his how you two can clearly love each other and NOT connnect, and I wonder if it is you need things that he doesn't appreciate because your outward appearance to the world would suggest that you don't. I wonder if something similar to that is part of your H's issues as well.

Have either of you ever talked about that? If anything I have said has a grain of truth to it, I would strongly suggest you two sit down and talk. Not about the A, nor about who messed up, but who you think you are, what you truely need from one another, and why. I think more is linked to your careers than you two realize.

Just a thought FL, hopefully it will spur some thoughts within you.

God Bless,

JL