Happy belated Mother’s Day to all the MB moms! I hope you all had a lovely day. I got to sleep in till 8:30 while H and the kids made a beautiful brunch. My favorite part of Mother’s Day is seeing the looks on the kids faces when I open the gifts they made in school. It was such a great day because I felt like we were a healed, whole family again.

We are now over 20 months into recovery. The A is more of a background memory, not the obsession for both H and I that it used to be. Our lives don’t revolve around the affair anymore, but around our lives as a family again.

I’ve been thinking about what factors cause recovery to happen faster in some marriages than others. There are those who have been posting for years who just can’t seem to achieve true recovery. Since we all have the same MB tools at our disposal, I was trying to pinpoint just what it was in our situation that allowed us to make the changes we needed to heal.

Anger was the No. 1 emotion around our house following DD from both sides. H was understandably furious. I was furious about the way the A was exposed as well as H’s initial reaction to it. I was furious at the OM because he caused all this trouble for me. I was furious with myself for getting into this situation in the first place but in my mind at the time, had plenty of reasons to blame both OM and H. I still have plenty of reasons to blame OM but that’s a whole different story. H gets no blame. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My H was so floored that I had done this that he couldn’t hear a word I said. His ears heard but his heart and mind couldn’t. I can’t blame him because some of the stuff I said back then was unbelievable. Major Fog, major fog talk. MY only consolation now is that I didn’t post that garbage on MB! I’m NOT saying that people shouldn’t post their feelings and thoughts but to bear in mind the possibility that your spouse may read your words someday is worth repeating. There was a thread on this recently, I think. Anyone remember what it was called?

It took a week alone without the kids and I for H to realize that he was not without fault in the breakdown of our marriage. He said he came face to face with himself and was filled with utter grief. It was the first change in the way he looked at the A and me and it somewhat improved the way he treated me. My husband is one of those super calm guys who can deliver a stinging DJ or LB without outwardly appearing to be angry. Sometimes I’d have to ask, what did you say? because I wasn’t even sure I heard correctly! Sort of a hit and run thing but I knew what he was getting at.

Since I had been doing all the “right “things, he couldn’t exactly act like he was angry with me without looking like an [censored], but in reality he was SEETHING. Someone said recently that his wife was a conflict avoider and perceived anger where there really was none. Well that was me, avoiding the anger that wasn't really there, NOT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I,in turn had not really been letting go of my anger either. I kept thinking, why couldn’t he be “normal”, why wouldn’t he stop being so mad at me. He wasn’t always saying that much in anger but I could tell his mood with one look! I felt like I had to walk on eggshells all the time.

I asked him this morning what he thinks turned things around and he said for one thing, he KNOWS for certain that I’m remorseful about hurting him. I had remorse from the beginning but somehow that wasn’t getting that through to him. It doesn’t do any good to feel or intend something positive towards our spouses if we don’t communicate in a way THEY can perceive it. This is true of both BS and WS. I really think not getting past my own anger about the situation was getting in the way of my message. It was the same for him.

We decided at 6 months post DD to commit to what we called, “Official POJA Week”. I had read that it takes three weeks to learn or unlearn a habit but that was way too long for us at that point, LOL. POJA Week meant that we had to consciously POJA everything even seemingly minor stuff. I wish I could remember who to give credit to here, but it was posted that POJA can be described as unselfish consideration for your spouse. What a great description. If I had read that back then I probably would have put it on Post Its all over the house as a reminder!

It took a couple days of really of working at it before we noticed that the LBs and DJs were fewer and farther in between. We had to work more as a team rather than looking out for ourselves. If we had done three full weeks, it probably would have been better but it was really hard to POJA everything for just one! I am NOT kidding here!

The end result of “forced POJA” was that we drew together and had a greater awareness and respect for each other’s feelings and needs. Because we HAD to consider each other first, it felt natural to put aside the anger and resentment we had been secretly (and not so secretly!) feeding. Our “A” discussions changed. The whole relationship changed.

This is not to say that it went smoothly all the time. We still rode the rollercoaster due to the frightening nature of the A and the way I was trying to deal with it. (head in the sand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) H thought I was being "phony nice" sometimes because I tried to bury my feelings. I thought he was being disrespectful of me by thinking he knew why I was quiet. It has only been recently that I have started to deal with this stuff so we understand more about each other's behavior back then.

Righteous anger has its place in the healing process but anger that judges and blames our spouses is in the end, counter productive. Finger pointing always means there are four pointing back at us. Unless we are willing to truthfully examine our selves and take responsibility for our own actions, recovery will suffer. We both feel sad about the time we wasted playing the blame game, however warranted we felt at the time.

There seem to be many (WS and BS alike) who seem to be stuck in the recovery process because they always need to be right and they have every rationalization under the sun of why they are. My husband and I had to stop ascribing blame and selfish motives to each other all the time. Sometimes it's just better to be married than to be right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We’ve been doing great for a long time now. The only cloud on the horizon is that while my fog days of psychoanalyzing the A are long over, the entire mess has to be resurrected again due to certain issues. Some of you know that OM was a stalker who impersonated a police officer to gain my trust. I’m going to have to deal with the abusive aspects of the A and I can’t say I particularly want to. The good news is I’ve become a lot better at recognizing bullying and manipulation and am less prone to ignore it. I just wish I hadn’t had to learn the hard way!

Anyway, I hope that sharing the idea of having a sustained time of unselfish consideration of each other, or mindful POJA is a help. It made all the difference to us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

KB

Thanks for this timely post on my part. I am really struggling with the anger issue right now.

It has really gotten much worse in the past two weeks.

I feel like I am back at Dday (or not too far from it!) Last night H and I were up until 3am.
I had a nice mother's day (but had to make a few concessions in our activies) but by the time we got home and put kids to bed and settled down, I started feeling angry again.

What I am afriad of is that my anger will eventually "drive" him away. But how can I not be deserving of this anger?

When I bring my anger about some aspect of his A, he immediately starts to talk about how good we have been doing NOW or something from BEFORE. He can't stay in the time frame of the A!

I am always the one to bring it up. Sounds logical - why would he want to bring it up? But I feel the weight of the mood ogf the marriage on me. If I am having a good day, then WE will. If I am having a bad day, I drag him down.

I try to tell him that I understand that he has emotions, triggers, anger about the A but he never brings them up. Well, he will at times when I am in the bad place to tell me that he thinks about it, but at that point, I don't want to hear it! I try to tell him to tell me when he has bad days no matter where I am. If I am in a good place, I can better empathize and comfort him. Why can't he do this? We have talked about it on several ocassions but he has not done it yet. That makes me think that he never thinks about it! It's a dead issue for him, and I then feel guilty about not just shutting up and moving on.

I am at a loss right now. I have said some things over the past few days that surprised even me. I do not know how to express myself without finger pointing and/or righteous indignation.

I realize my part in the state of the marriage that got us to that point last year. But some of the specifics of where I was during the A just sticks in my craw (as mom would say.) I was (unintentionally) Plan Aing him to the max BEFORE the PA got started!! He continued the EA into a PA when I was home here being A#1 Super Wife?!? I don't get it!?!

Can you try to explain some more about being on the other side of fence to me? My H can't seem to explain it to me. I feel like he just kind of goes with the flow, manages (most times) to say "the right thing" to calm me down, but I am not feeling like he is getting it. Getting the depth of what he's done.

Not sure how much sense this made. Maybe I need an up in doasge on the A-Ds!!

AAAHHHHHHH!! Anyone, feel free to chime in. Advice, 2x4's, anything!! I am feeling very isolated here in real life (as compared to cyberlife) No one really to talk to.

^^^
bump...anyone?

.


Hi Fraggles, Sorry, I have to pick up my kids in a few and just happened to take a peek at MB. I'll try to get in as much as I can. When I'm in a rush, I'm probably going to be the one who doesn't make sense!

Quote from Fraggles:
My H can't seem to explain it to me. I feel like he just kind of goes with the flow, manages (most times) to say "the right thing" to calm me down, but I am not feeling like he is getting it. Getting the depth of what he's done.

I think you nailed it with that statement! That's exactly how my H felt also. He said he KNEW things had changed when he FELT I had remorse. Your H is not quite getting that through to you and you feel angry. Of course you do!

I really thought I was making myself clear to my H but I wasn't doing a good enough job getting through prior to the little experiment. I guess that's why its effect on our relationship was so huge.

Would your H being willing to try this with you? Have you done the reading about POJA and how it works? One of the benefits of intensive POJA was the building of trust on both our ends.

We knew that no matter what that we needed to consider each other and I'll admit it got kind of silly sometimes but it got us to work TOGETHER. We needed to be on the same page so being "forced" into it by our own desire to fix our broken marriage was an emergency RX.

H really needed to know that I loved him and I truly was repentant. He was able to hear me more clearly after I showed my willingness to put him first in my life. POJA is an awesome idea IMO.

I'm sorry I don't have more time right now, hopefully others will have some thoughts on this. Why don't you think about POJA and how you two can work together at being a team.

I mean even if you were the Plan A Queen of the Century marriage recovery still has to be a joint effort, true? I'll try to pop back tonight, tomorrow at the very latest, OK? Don't lose hope. KB

P.S. Maybe you could apologize for whatever DJs or LBs and tell him you want to change and then really lay out a good strong POJA agreement.(That is enthusiasticaly POJAed, LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> sorry couldn't resist!))

KB- very good post . I do have a 2cent opoin LOL

As far as ANGER MANEDGEMENT this is tough , some do not even understand they have anger to manage.

the other point of your post is the fact that the recovery process seems to get stuck for some , and really never moves from that point .

JMVHO , this has alot of factors, now I am not being one sided at all (please belive that )

I feel the biggest part of the hole process is the WS , now I know that may seem unfair , (because I am BS) but this you can see from reading here .

The ones who seem more stuck (like myself ) are the ones who WS don't get it and still see no use in the hole REBUILDING process ,, also you deal with different personalitys all the time.

MY H for example ,, was NEVER the type to be into R books or paper quizs (make sense) so he feels it to be silly to start now and really no need for it .

NOW that sounds terriable considering that he was the one who had the A ,, One would think by now he realizes that something "NEW " needs to be done ,,, NOPE not him ,, He feels very secure in our M , (so he says) Feels it was a mistake and thats it ,, it won't happen again ,, when asked how do you "KNOW " that he replays ,,, well when a kid makes a mistake and really suffered from it and they GET IT why it was wrong they DON"t repeat it cause they know what happened the first time ..

SO on that alone he feels ok ,, all sumed up ,, I know better now thats it .

THIS recovery thing to me does not take the turn around till the WS SEES and really KNOWS the PAIN of the BS .

With that I understand then come the BS who needs to not punish the WS any more ,, and really GO with this progress .

A couple can talk kindly, respectfully , caring ,ect. till your blue in the face but if the other person doean't HEAR them all is pointless .

POJA well I think its great that it worked so well for you and even others ,,, but there are some who will bring this to the FWS/WS and they will look at them and say whatever (like mine )

Ever personality is different the hardest part is realizing that while on MB not all of this fits the indivdual situation and the personalitys in it .

Some may disagree with me , but thats JMO.

Its like PLAN B ,, I was told so many times to do it after H came home and was in contact (openly telling me all ) but I know my H if I did it it meant D ,,, finnal he would cut his nose to spite
his face .

He felt that if I couldn't stand by him and allow him to end the A his way then I really was not there for him ..NOW mind you that is selfish I know this ,, BUT this is him and his personality .

NOw don't get me wrong I am not stupid , I am who I am also and he KNOWS if it happens again OUT he will go ,, but I know at that point its over .

DOES this make sense ,?? I am more relating to you on the WHY some are or may be stuck in the recovery process ..

I don't want you to think I am playing the BLAME game ...

I know how my M was spinning for a hurracane pre-a but was always willing and able to go for any help , he choose to avoid cause he already found it easier to escape the world he lived in .

Hi 3! Thanks for your input, you know I love to hear from you! How are you guys doing these days? I think you made some great points.

QUOTE from 3:
As far as ANGER MANEDGEMENT this is tough , some do not even understand they have anger to manage.

KB:
Completely true! You can’t fix something if you don’t know it’s broken. Acknowledging anger is the first step. I had the hardest time with this because I was so fixated by the way the A was exposed (spectacular!) but because I was the one who screwed up, I felt somehow that I couldn’t express myself. I kept the bulk of it inside for the longest time. Meanwhile he’s DJing and LBing away (pre MB) and I’m getting madder! I had to come to grips with my anger and deal with it or we were never going to move forward. His, he had to deal with himself. That’s where our POJA Week came in.

QUOTE:
I feel the biggest part of the hole process is the WS , now I know that may seem unfair , (because I am BS) but this you can see from reading here .

KB:
I don’t think that’s unfair at all, but it really does take two in the end. I can’t imagine how upsetting it must be to bang your head against the wall all the time with a spouse you feel doesn’t want to do his/her part. The bad part about that headbanging feeling is that it’s so hard not to LB. One of the reasons I like Harley’s concepts so much is that he focuses on the present in order to build for the future. Totally counterintuitive! More on that later.

QUOTE:
The ones who seem more stuck (like myself ) are the ones who WS don't get it and still see no use in the hole REBUILDING process ,, also you deal with different personalitys all the time.

KB:
Yes, this is what Fraggles is saying too. WS doesn’t get it. They don’t get why you need what you do for recovery! I got it, but was doing a LOUSY job of making him understand that. Anger about A related issues kept us from connecting in a way that made him feel secure. You are so right about different personalities. For H the best way to make him feel secure is SF. Well after the usual (?) sex crazy honeymoon period, we settled down a little, and he started to feel uneasy again. This was what HE required to be reassured. The problem is when anger is predominant in a relationship, SF is probably going to suffer. We slipped into a LB/DJ cycle that had to be broken or we were doomed. Everyone has different needs in recovery and it’s hard when you don’t feel your needs are being met.

QUOTE:
THIS recovery thing to me does not take the turn around till the WS SEES and really KNOWS the PAIN of the BS .

KB:
Yes, yes, yes!!! You, the BS needs to KNOW this in your heart! So how does a WS get this through?

QUOTE:
With that I understand then come the BS who needs to not punish the WS any more ,, and really GO with this progress . A couple can talk kindly, respectfully , caring ,ect. till your blue in the face but if the other person doean't HEAR them all is pointless .

KB:
Sometimes I think people think they have to work at Plan A indefinitely. A true Plan A is HARD!!It’s meant to be used after discovery to get the WS to leave the A. It only becomes more of an easy, natural way of life AFTER the other concepts are put into practice. The problem you are posing is what if you feel you are the only one rebuilding. I guess I was trying to make the point that we (H and I) really had to apply ourselves to a concept like POJA in this case, in order to get to recovery. The operative word is WE. I know you’ve been frustrated 3, I don’t blame you at all, so when you say:

QUOTE:
POJA well I think its great that it worked so well for you and even others ,,, but there are some who will bring this to the FWS/WS and they will look at them and say whatever (like mine )

KB:
I understand, 3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I wanted to share my story because there are couples who are trying to get to recovery but are stalled because of communication. POJA is a negotiation tool that helped H and I get past looking out for ourselves and into looking out for each other. It helped us become one unit because it forced us to really consider each other’s needs. It especially helped us to overcome anger.

On that topic, Harley wrote a great article on overcoming resentment after infidelity. Fraggles you might want to read that one, if you haven’t already. I haven’t looked at it in a long time but I remember him saying that an enemy of good conversation is dwelling on past mistakes. (of course as a FWS I would remember that! LOL) I think he also said that resentment is an irrational reaction to something that is no longer a threat.

Fraggles, 3 your H’s are home with you and your children. Regardless of how or why they came to be there, the recovery does depend on how you deal with the present.

MB had an emphasis on the present with the intent of building for the future. It’s not one size fits all but you can tweak it to suit yourself. The only person you can change is you. To be a thoughtful wife who doesn’t dredge up or dwell on the past is in your best interests here. Harley’s methods are SO counterintuitive aren’t they!

QUOTE from 3:
I don't want you to think I am playing the BLAME game ...

KB:
You KNOW I think you’re awesome!

Fraggles,any thoughts? Are you around 6 months into recovery? I can’t remember. If so that’s early yet. It’s hard but brighter days are ahead. Try to read that article if you can. I don’t know how to link it, can someone explain this to me? Thanks, KB

KB,

thank you so much for your input! I really needed someone's POV BADLY.

I have printed out this whole thread for H and I to review and discuss.

We had another tough night last night. *sigh*

I think I have also realized that it isnt just anger at the A, but that I have tried so hard to communicate, educate (I bought ALL the books), we started doing the "homework" from them for strengthening communication, validation, yada yada yada...and we did well in the begining. But it's me that almost always begins up discussion, doing some excerises etc. Now after some time and me NOT being the teacher "Come on, it's time to learn how to make our marriage work!" because I am 1) getting tired of shouldering all of the initiation and 2) waiting for him to take up some slack to prove to me he wants this to work, he is beginning to respond like before (Pre-A).

He assumes my feelings, assumes I cannot handle his emotions so doesn't say anything. Only when I bring it up. I have specifically spelled out things that he can do (or stop doing) to make me feel like I am being listened to, understood, etc. and already it has fallen by the wayside. And he doesn't do the things I need him to (unless I get angry and upset and REMIND him that he is supposed to do this, that or whatever.)

I am starting to detach again. I did that early on in the M when he was responding as above. Of course then I did not have MB, or all the things I have learned about making a M better. But still I am getting tired.

Yes I need to reread the resentment article. I remember reading it waaay back when.

BTW we are just about 5 months into TRUE recovery - 1st three months after Dday he covered up PA - another sticking point for me! I have a hard time with the fact that he NEVER admitted anything until he was caught red-handed and his back was against the wall. I know, I know...over and done with, and YES, he is trying so hard.

I know he loves me and wants this M to work. But how much more can I do when I spell everything out, educate him with all that I have learned, and try my best to hold up my end of the M???

I know he is remorseful. But remorse doesn't solve our M problems. WE have to do that. I think now that's where my true anger lies. The fear of things NOT going as planned, him NOT getting it, or ME just freaking out and losing it and/or withdrawing again into depression.

I use the anger of the A (which is still real) as a front for this fear. I double the anger about it to hide from my feelings of TERROR that this will not work out. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> that things will go back to "status-quo."

I am going to bring up POJA Week tonight along with this thread. Maybe that will help us.

Also, we are going on a Marriage Encounter Weekend the 21-23 so that will hopefully encourage things!

*sigh* Thanks KB, I appreciate your advice. Please respond back and tell me what you think.

Hi Fraggles, Wow, you've had double DDays, and it's been only 5 months since the last? That's MAJOR, IMO! No wonder you're tired. Do I remember you saying OW is around the corner or in the neighborhood? UGH! You need to be good to yourself, girl!

I think recovery goes through phases just like marriage. Sometimes it's hard to separate which is which. EVERTHING is about the A in early recovery. That's where you're at now and it sucks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The good news is that things usually do get better with time. Are you guys spending at least 15 hours together a week doing fun things together? It could be something as little as grabbing an ice cream cone w/o the kids. The idea is to make new happy memories together as a couple.

We have four kids with their own busy schedules so it was tough to pull off 15 hours of fun outside the house. We slipped out for coffee or a drink sometimes but playing cards or a board game at home usually was a better idea for us because it kept us from slipping into "A" talk. "A" talk will ruin your fun every time! Try as hard as you can to keep that time STRICTLY for fun whatever you decide to do.

QUOTE from Fraggles:
He assumes my feelings, assumes I cannot handle his emotions so doesn't say anything. Only when I bring it up. I have specifically spelled out things that he can do (or stop doing) to make me feel like I am being listened to, understood, etc. and already it has fallen by the wayside. And he doesn't do the things I need him to (unless I get angry and upset and REMIND him that he is supposed to do this, that or whatever.)

KB:
Why do you think he assumes your feelings Fraggles? What exactly do you mean by that? One thing about endless A talk is that it's easy to slip into the same old conversation, the same old lines. We repeat ourselves over and over hoping to be heard and the spouse thinks "Here we go again!" It's draining for both parties. Having good times together, getting into a place where you turn to each other in consideration (POJA) are some ways to help break that cycle.

I would think that he assumes you can't handle his emotions based on your past reactions. Having fun together helps him to see you in a different way and puts deposits (sweet memories) in both your Love Banks.

QUOTE from Fraggles:
I am starting to detach again. I did that early on in the M when he was responding as above. Of course then I did not have MB, or all the things I have learned about making a M better. But still I am getting tired.

KB:
I'm a withdrawer too. It's hard to fight the tendency but look at what you've said. You have learned so much! It is hard work, emotionally exhausting work but you CAN do it. It doesn't sound like you're alone:

QUOTE from Fraggles:
and YES, he is trying so hard. I know he loves me and wants this M to work. I know he is remorseful.

KB:
Think about what 3 was saying. She would love to be in your shoes and saying those things at once about her H. (have hope, dear 3!) You've got a running start here, Fraggles. Start having some fun times together and do some fun stuff for yourself too, so you can unwind a little.

One thing about the early time of recovery is the urge to dwell on the A 24/7. It's hard to appreciate your kids, and all the good things in life if your mind is fixated on this. I found that trying to be in the moment, whichever moment that was, helped me. It's kind of hard to do actually!

Quote from Fraggles:
But how much more can I do when I spell everything out, educate him with all that I have learned, and try my best to hold up my end of the M???

KB:
So take a break for a while. Stop spelling things out, stop "educating him" and just LOVE him. Switch gears for a bit and have a blast together. Go to Marriage Encounter and let THEM tell him. ( I want to hear how that goes!)Your end is always going to be no LBs and DJs, affair or no affair.

I want to get to the rest of your post but I've got to get up at 4:00 AM tomorrow. Yikes. One more thing about POJA WEEK: It was hard! Maybe you could try POJA Day? Kind of a trial run. You may find yourself laughing together because it does seem odd to be defering to each other on some of the more minor things.

I had major problems getting on the Web earlier today and got bounced off of MB a bunch of times while still logged in. Then I couldn't get back because the page wasn't available. Meanwhile I'm still logged in! I wonder if I have that/a virus?? Hopefully, things will be smooth tomorrow, let us know how your talk went tonight, OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Take care, KB

Edited by Knewbetter because she made a huge, stupid spelling error!

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
<strong> Hi Fraggles, Wow, you've had double DDays, and it's been only 5 months since the last? That's MAJOR, IMO! No wonder you're tired. Do I remember you saying OW is around the corner or in the neighborhood? UGH! You need to be good to yourself, girl! </strong>

Yes, double ddays...and I still have a fear of maybe a 3rd...pertaining to what I'm not sure. Either information still being omitted and even sometimes, fear that things continued with SOW past Dday...? These are fears based on past behaviors, not any suspicions of recent suspicious activity. I can usually dismiss them as normal doubts arising from the stress of it all!

<strong> The good news is that things usually do get better with time. Are you guys spending at least 15 hours together a week doing fun things together? It could be something as little as grabbing an ice cream cone w/o the kids. The idea is to make new happy memories together as a couple.

We have four kids with their own busy schedules so it was tough to pull off 15 hours of fun outside the house. We slipped out for coffee or a drink sometimes but playing cards or a board game at home usually was a better idea for us because it kept us from slipping into "A" talk. "A" talk will ruin your fun every time! Try as hard as you can to keep that time STRICTLY for fun whatever you decide to do. </strong>

We have been very good about the 15 hours of time together. Up until a few weeks ago, it mostly contained fun things. Or things we do together now that we did not before. Like walk the dog (started as me going out of fear b/c he would meet up with SOW on some of his dog walks, but now it is a nice routine and we talk w/o kids, phones, tvs etc.) We have spent more time away alone in the past 8 months than probably in the past 3-4 years. But lately, our time is now A-centered again, like in the beginning.

<strong> KB:
Why do you think he assumes your feelings Fraggles? What exactly do you mean by that? One thing about endless A talk is that it's easy to slip into the same old conversation, the same old lines. We repeat ourselves over and over hoping to be heard and the spouse thinks "Here we go again!" It's draining for both parties. Having good times together, getting into a place where you turn to each other in consideration (POJA) are some ways to help break that cycle.

I would think that he assumes you can't handle his emotions based on your past reactions. Having fun together helps him to see you in a different way and puts deposits (sweet memories) in both your Love Banks.</strong>

Assumptions. From our discussions since Dday(s) this has always been the thing HE has brought up. Starting from way back early in the M where he would assume I would react a certain way in a certain situation. So fearing my NEGATIVE reaction, he just didnt say anything at all, slapped a smile on his face and grit his teeth. This led to not only assumptions on my feelings, but assumptions on things he felt I may have done.

Major case in point: About 4 yrs. ago I discovered a passion for music - live music. Independent artists that were very good. One band/artist in particular and a friend and I took several roadtrips to see this band. I always wanted H to come (he loves music too) but it was not always possible with the kids. He would stay home to be with them and always said he didnt mind me going. Well, I come to find out just in recent months that he assumed that I was fooling around on these trips. Why? because I was distant at that point (was before the trips started). My explanation for these trips and this distraction by the music was 1) my mom was dying and I needed something that I could escape to and 2) I could not get that "escape" in my M because H never opened up to me. I never broke my vows, never overstepped the boundaries. Had plenty of offers, but it was never even a matter of me saying "hmmmm...should I?" I would laugh at the offers and say "Duh, I'm married" H took some trips with me and got to know the people I knew. I wanted to share this with him.

He never came right out and told me of his fears, his assumptions so how could I in any way defend myself?

(BTW the roadtrips stopped over a year ago. I still go see the performers I want to see, but only when they are in our area, and always with H.)

In July after a horrible vacation and meltdown on my end, he assumed the marriage was over. DId he ASK ME if I thought it was over?? NO. He says the A got rolling at that point b/c of that assumption.

So.....when the assuming started again in the past few weeks, I am freaking out! Internally I am screaming "OMG not again!!!" Outwardly I am calmly (most times) trying to explain to H what I am feeling, etc.

My H is a major conflict avoider. Anything negative and he runs...or assumes the worst and responds on his assumptions. His childhood has formed this in him - I know that and he says he does too now. But, if I stand there and say, "I think you are avoiding. What do you really feel?" and he still won't be totally open - what do I do then????

<strong> KB:
I'm a withdrawer too. It's hard to fight the tendency but look at what you've said. You have learned so much! It is hard work, emotionally exhausting work but you CAN do it. It doesn't sound like you're alone:

QUOTE from Fraggles:
and YES, he is trying so hard. I know he loves me and wants this M to work. I know he is remorseful.
</strong>

No I am not alone. He is here trying. He is talking the talk, but cant seem to figure out how to 'walk the walk'. I am trying with all my might to not withdrawl. I need something to help me recharge my battery. But I need to feel that if I take a break, the whole thing isnt going to fall apart. I am so obsessive about "making it work" because I feel like I am the only one trying to make it work. Goes back to the teacher/student thing. If I dont make sure his "assignments" get done, they wont and WE will fail.

<strong>KB:
Think about what 3 was saying. She would love to be in your shoes and saying those things at once about her H. (have hope, dear 3!) You've got a running start here, Fraggles. Start having some fun times together and do some fun stuff for yourself too, so you can unwind a little. </strong>

Thank 3 for your input too. Sometimes I do feel like, Shoot whats MY problem?? He is HERE and willing!

Yes, 3, have hope!!

<strong> One thing about the early time of recovery is the urge to dwell on the A 24/7. It's hard to appreciate your kids, and all the good things in life if your mind is fixated on this. I found that trying to be in the moment, whichever moment that was, helped me. It's kind of hard to do actually!

KB:
So take a break for a while. Stop spelling things out, stop "educating him" and just LOVE him. Switch gears for a bit and have a blast together. Go to Marriage Encounter and let THEM tell him. ( I want to hear how that goes!)Your end is always going to be no LBs and DJs, affair or no affair. </strong>

I'm TRYING to back off and relax! The control freak in me is at an all time high. I need to control my control freak! lol

Last night we read though this thread up to my response last night. He understands where I am coming from, he WANTS to do whatever it takes to get this recovery really rolling. After what I felt was a good "session", we agreed to stop and get some rest (he has a bus. trip away today and needed to be up extra early) I tried - couldnt sleep. He wanted to curl up behind me and hold me and when he did, I cringed, didnt want him near me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I went downstairs to try to sleep, ended up crying for a bit, then back to bed. He woke up and I tried to explain what I was feeling (didnt do so good, I was so tired but couldnt fall asleep) I took a sleeping pill and feel asleep "on my side of the bed."

I'm scared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Up to this point, no matter how our sessions went, I ALWAYS wanted to be in his arms. Most time the sessions ended in SF. How can I suddenly be feeling the opposite?? I know SF is a top need for H. Hopefully its just the added stress I have been putting myself through lately.

Sorry this got so long!! I have so much going on in my head!

Thanks, KB. Looking forward to your response on this.

PS I have looked up some of your early posts and have pieced together your story ((((knewbetter)))) I cannot even imagine!
I am envious because you make so much sense and seem to have it so together now. Thanks for your help. I wish I could help others here but I feel as lost and clueless as they do! Maybe some day I will be in a position to really help!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

One more thing that came to mind as I re-read my post, KB.

This is what he wrote to me the other day concerning his avoidance and not opening up, and he has also mentioned it several times recently:

"I get somewhat jealous when your thought process makes more sense and is more intelligent than mine. I envy that more than you might know; but I also repsect your intellect at the same time."

He says I know more on marriage building, affairs, relationships, etc. b/c of all the books I have read. He feels like he doesn't have much to contribute.


Here was my response:

"That makes me feel like I need to "dumb-down." I am sorry that you feel jealous about my knowledge and ideas on things. My POV is who cares who comes up with a solution, as long as it works? And if you feel so "unintelligent" on this subject, than educate yourself!"

He does have a hard time forming his thoughts - meaning making them come out the way he means. I usually know what he means (I know him pretty well by now) and I ask him "Is this what you mean?" Well, by me doing that, it makes him feel inferior, like he is too dumb to formulate an intelligent response.

Am I responsible for his intellectual self-esteem?

I also pointed out that everyone always know more than someone else on a certain subject. It depends on what the person has learned, been experienced in, etc.

He knows tons more than I on other subjects. That doesn't make me feel dumb. If I want to know more on them, I will educate myself.

I told him if he feels so much at a loss in terms of relationshipi knowledge, then make it a priorty to start learning more (not from me!)

I pointed out that on Mothers day we were in a book store. What section was I in? Relationship Self-help. Where was he? Civil War. Ok, he loves the civil war and has over 100 books on it. Many he has never even read! It is one of the subject he knows tons more than I. I am not offended by that. Why did he not take that chance to look for some of the books on relationships? I am always the one hunting for the books, printing the posts and saying, Here read this. Look what I found, maybe it will help.
If he would take the initiative sometimes to find these things out on his own, maybe he wouldnt feel so uninformed on the subject!

Am I out of line? Should I worry about making him feel smart by being the dumb little wife?

^^^
bump for knewbetter's attention (when you can!)
or anyone else with some type of advice or opinion.
Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Fraggles, I'm here! I'm really wiped out after my very early morning and groggy after the nap I took. I'm adding into the post I started to you last night. I hope you’re feeling a little better today in spite of your difficult evening. I got a total of 3 hours sleep last night because I couldn’t stop thinking about you two.

QUOTE from Fraggles:
Yes, double ddays...and I still have a fear of maybe a 3rd...pertaining to what I'm not sure. Either information still being omitted and even sometimes, fear that things continued with SOW past Dday...? These are fears based on past behaviors, not any suspicions of recent suspicious activity. I can usually dismiss them as normal doubts arising from the stress of it all!

KB:
I’m so glad you don’t have reasons to be suspicious. Your anger and fear are somehow wrapped up together but you’re saying there is no basis. Still, something’s up in your mind making you feel anxious. A thought: I really believe that we are what we think. In other words, what we dwell on shapes our lives and personalities in ways we can’t always recognize. You really do so many positives working for you in your recovery. He loves you, wants to be with YOU, and is trying within his abilities to make you happy again. That’s pretty neat! Maybe you could remind yourself of this when you feel down.

QUOTE from Fraggles:
We have been very good about the 15 hours of time together. We have spent more time away alone in the past 8 months than probably in the past 3-4 years. But lately, our time is now A-centered again, like in the beginning.

KB:
Yes, there are phases in recovery, up and down. It’s hard to not give more credence to the down times than we should because the A is such a devastating event. I used to feel that every argument would lead immediately to divorce court. You know that feeling? In the last 8 months, you guys have spent quality fun time together but now something has changed in your mind and it seems like you’re back at square one. Can you pinpoint this?

QUOTE from Fraggles:
In July after a horrible vacation and meltdown on my end, he assumed the marriage was over. DId he ASK ME if I thought it was over?? NO. He says the A got rolling at that point b/c of that assumption.

KB:
Actually he’s hugely wrong. ***THE AFFAIR STARTED BECAUSE HE STARTED IT.*** Anything else is an excuse. I tried that one too. Gee, H if you hadn’t turned me down for SF for a year and a half, I wouldn’t have an A. WRONG!!!! I did what I did and no one held a gun to my head. (That came later, ugh)

***A WS HAS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR HIS OR HER ACTIONS WITHOUT EXCEPTION.*** To say that he turned to another woman because he THOUGHT you did the same with another man indirectly places blame on YOU and YOUR actions, even though he now blames his faulty thought process as the culprit.

He needs to understand and own the fact that that HE did this; that HE and HE alone chose this and acted it out. No excuses. You were both responsible for the breakdown of the marriage but the affair was HIS choice. For him to really get this is so crucial to your recovery!

QUOTE from Fraggles:
So.....when the assuming started again in the past few weeks, I am freaking out! Internally I am screaming "OMG not again!!!" Outwardly I am calmly (most times) trying to explain to H what I am feeling, etc.

KB:
I can understand! The difference now is you both know what your communication problems are and both need to work hard to get around them. You may have been defenseless before but it’s different now. You have more tools at your disposal to learn to trust each other again. You both have support here on MB because we want to see you guys happily married!

QUOTE from Fraggles:
I'm TRYING to back off and relax! The control freak in me is at an all time high. I need to control my control freak! lol

KB:
I wrote out my thoughts on this and what followed but then read it and thought maybe it would be better to talk privately. My email is , drop me an email and I’ll get back to you.

QUOTE from Fraggles:
PS I have looked up some of your early posts and have pieced together your story ((((knewbetter)))) I cannot even imagine!
I am envious because you make so much sense and seem to have it so together now. Thanks for your help. I wish I could help others here but I feel as lost and clueless as they do! Maybe some day I will be in a position to really help!

KB:
Thanks for your kind words, Fraggles. It means a lot to me. I’m actually at a very fragile point in my life now. H has requested I go to IC to deal with the abuse issues surrounding the A. I’m the one who can barely get through two minutes of a rape crisis hotline call without bawling! I’m so scared to revisit the whole thing. So you see I don’t have it all together at all.

I just am so grateful for all I’ve learned here on MB and I do want to give back if I am able. I don’t post often but I really care about the people I post to. (Also those of you who don’t know I lurk on your threads! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) Fraggles remember this, we are 15 long months ahead of you in recovery. It does take time and hard work to get to the point where the A and its issues are not the most important thing in your life. I know you can do this!

You are actually already helping people because you are growing through this process whether you know it or not. You’re at a low right this second but we are going to watch you work this out and learn from your experience. Anyway, drop me an email and I’ll try to get back to you on that one thing before tonight if possible. The rest we can talk about on the board, OK? Take care, KB

P.S Tell your H that I collect Civil War books too and have not been able to read most of them either LOL. Actually, I collect books period, we are overrun with books in this house! Being female, I tend to collect first person accounts during the war. I guess it's that relationship slant I like.

Interesting thought: While we don't have to slog through mud, sleep in tents, eat awful food and fight people, we do have to slog through the mud of past mistakes, sleep on "our own side of the bed" sometimes and eat food that turns tasteless while fighting with the one we love.

The relationship books help us have happier relationships together. The Civil War books contribute to your H's happiness for himself. That's ok!

Maybe you could join H in his interest in the Civil War. I'll bet you'd fall over if you REALLY knew how much he knows! Respecting his interests goes a long way towards him being interested in yours which is your mutual benefit. He sounds like a great guy, Fraggles. He's trying. He can catch up on the relationship stuff. Would he consider coming here?

My H is a very accomplished man in a field where sound judgement is imperative,yet he feels that I am the one with insight into situations and people. He listens when I speak but I have been guilty in the past of the "I can't beleive you didn't know THAT!" kind of DJ. I try to bring things up in terms of what does he think about something I've read rather than instructing him in it.

I personally have zero interest in the ins and outs of Calvinistic theology, or black holes, string theory,deep space, evolution, you name it, it's just not my thing. It is his though and I'm way over my head half the time! I do listen and give him respect by doing so. I've even learned a few things along the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

KB.
Sent an email to you.
Hope to hear from ya!
Frags