Are you trying to bust up a marriage with your comments?

Seems like you are advising someone to threaten another affair if her husband doesn't shape up and fly right ... 7 weeks after D-day.

Your name calling and lack of empathy are astonishingly anti-recovery.

Pep

Dear Pep.
FL is feeling very vunerable now as you just read where she has been contacting the OM again.

Right now would be an excellant time for her H to give her some love to store in her love bank instead of depleting it by making her feel she is unworthy to be kissed; to be forgiven.
Everyone of us has had to do that sometime in our lives;
put others feelings before our own!

I believe that we are all WORTHY of forgiveness when we repent...By God and by our spouses.

Just because I think her H should be treating her better, even though he is hurting, does not mean I am undermining her marriage. I hope and pray their marriage can heal and get on the right happy path again.

That was a good idea to start a new thread as it was kinda getting side-tracted by our debate on whether he should be treating FL more kindly.

By the way, anybody is welcome and invited to share your thoughts, right here on this thread.

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Thought of something else.

If FL's H were posting here, wouldn't we all (new-timers and old-timers) be advising him to do a Plan A with no love busters?

So why is it okay, just because he isn't posting here, that he is doing the LB's?

Answer appreciated.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FL is feeling very vunerable now as you just read where she has been contacting the OM again.

Which is exactly why I am feeling a bit tee'd off at you. Her choice to see OM or not is about HER integrity. He H's problems are outside her integrity.

None of is can be held responsible for our spouse's integrity.

Right now would be an excellant time for her H to give her some love to store in her love bank instead of depleting it by making her feel she is unworthy to be kissed; to be forgiven.
Everyone of us has had to do that sometimes in our lives; put others feelings before our own!

I agree... but if he cannot find the strength to do this just now... is he to be told he deserves to be betrayed again?

NO!

His being hurt and annoying at the moment has nothing NOTHING to do with FL making a decision to betray her OWN integrity again.

I believe that we are all WORTHY of forgiveness when we repent...By God and by our spouses.

I agree.

And it is not up to you to decide that today is FL's H's deadline to offer forgiveness... It may be a longer process for him than it is for you. Perhaps he is far weakened by this affair than you were by your H's. Who can say? You do not have the right to give FL's a deadline for forgiveness....

Just because I think her H should be treating her better, even though he is hurting, does not mean I am undermining her marriage. I hope and pray their marriage can heal and get on the right happy path again.

You called her H names... and THAT may justify another affair in her mind if she is so softened up thinking her H is a [censored]....... disrespectful.

That was a good idea to start a new thread as it was kinda getting side-tracted by our debate on whether he should be treating FL more kindly.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong> Thought of something else.

If FL's H were posting here, wouldn't we all (new-timers and old-timers) be advising him to do a Plan A with no love busters?

So why is it okay, just because he isn't posting here, that he is doing the LB's?

Answer appreciated.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it OK for you and others to call him names just because he isn't posting here?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong> Thought of something else.

If FL's H were posting here, wouldn't we all (new-timers and old-timers) be advising him to do a Plan A with no love busters?

So why is it okay, just because he isn't posting here, that he is doing the LB's?

Answer appreciated.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JMHO,

That's the problem BT...he ISN'T posting here. If he were, he would be getting the advice to change. Since FL is the one posting, SHE is the one getting advice on changing the way that she reacts to him.

It does NO good to blast her BS. It just adds fuel to FL's fire...and it leads to no good within HER healing. You can validate that she is upset...you don't dogpile on her BS. You need to encourage her to react differently to him.

JMHO,
committed

Pep, let's hope it takes more that calling FL's H a [censored] (foolish person) for her to have another affair!

By the way, I appologized for calling him that.
In my way of thinking, that means you should not bring it up again! (It blots out the transgression.)

I guess it is like with other addictions, the slightest excuse may start the addiction over.
Perhaps FL is trying to find and excuse and only telling us the BAD things her husband is doing and not all the GOOD things he is doing for her.

Pep, Pep, Pep, I need to be outside planting the vegetable garden so I will only be on the 'puter' for another half hour.

I am sorry for anything I said that offended you or FL.
I want to be helpful not harmful.

I have so many feelings on how our mates should be treated after confession and after the affair has stopped!
And in my way of thinking, KINDNESS is probably the first action!
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Committed.
I just saw your post.
You are right.

Perhaps FL's H should be encouraged to post here. Would that help, do you think?

Then we would hear his side of the 'marriage'.
It would probably be a different picture that we see. (The same with EVERYONE that posts here.)

I realize I was wrong to assume that the picture FL is painting of her H is exactly the way it is.
Like I said earlier, we may be only hearing the BAD and not the GOOD, and she is wanting an excuse to have another affair.

My going along, that her H is a selfish nasty fellow, might just feed her foggy reasoning.
Sincerely, Julie

Happy gardening

Thanks Pep. But it is really hot out, almost 90.
My mom is coming to help plant it.

Do you think I am finally getting it concerning not going along with FL, in saying her husband better start being kinder? (I think I am!)

However, I do stand behind, that it is humilating and plain old-fashioned wrong for him to say her lips are unworthy of his kisses yet her lips are worthy to give him OS.

My Internet will be on until 12:30 and then so long for awhile.

I have enjoyed this little debate.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

From the other thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Doesn't FL DESERVE to be forgiven and treated like a forgiven lady should be treated?
It has been 7 weeks since D day...Punishment time should be over. He is not doing Plan A whatsoever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To answer your first question - forgiveness is something that occurs between two people. She may be doing everything she needs to be doing to be forgiven, but he may not be at a emotional point where he's ready to forgive her. In fact, some BS's never get there and the marriage ends.

While this is not the ideal, it doesn't make them the bad guys. I believe that's why the Bible gives the BS the option to end the relationship in the case of infidelity.

In the grand scheme of recovery, 7 weeks is nothing. Besides, the various stages of recovery may occur at different points for everyone. The "milestones" are more related to the process than time. I would say his behavior is not to abnormal for so soon after d-day.

Please review Plan A in the MB literature. It is only applicable in the case of a wayward spouse who is actively engaged in an affair. A spouse who has ended the affair, established NC, and is committed to restoring their marriage is now in recovery. The rules are somewhat different.

I don't think anyone is excusing FL's husband's atrocious behavior. But, since FL is here asking for help, we are offering her solutions that SHE can implement to improve her situation. Her H is NOT here, or I'm sure we'd be chastising him for his lovebusting.

Faced with her husband's behavior, FL has a few choices. All of these choices are her own and can't be blamed on anyone else - she is responsible for her behavior.

For example, when her H expresses this nastiness that she is describing, it's entirely her choice to let it hurt her and be an excuse to go back to OM. An alternative would be for her to understand the root of his anger, try not to take it personally, and decide help him work through his anger.

I think we should be advising her in a way that helps her see healthy alternatives. Commiserating with her assessment that her H is is the bad guy is NOT helpful to her. Reinforcing this assessment doesn't do anything but help justify her current sense of self-pity.

We are all responsible for our choices. Those choices included how we are going to respond to bad behavior in others. We are not victims.

FL has hurt her H badly. Her best tack at this point, assuming recovery is her objective, is to focus on what it's going to take to restore love. Helping her H through his anger by acknowledging it is a big part of it. She is still in the "see how bad he is treating me" mode instead of the "see how bad he is hurting" mode. This isn't abnormal at this point either, but she can get through this. We're trying to help her do that.

I understand her behavior because I've been there. I know it wasn't good place to be. Only she can change that.

Low

BT,

I don't think anyone disputes that his comments to her were hurtful. I am guessing they are meant to be hurtful. People in pain often say hurtful things to the person that hurt them.

However the real issue is FL. She called OM, she apparently resisted meeting him, but she made contact and that usually starts withdrawal all over again. You may notice she has not been here, which suggests that she is in trouble again.

In a perfect world your view of what her BS would/should do is right. He may yet do these things. However, what I think I would encourage FL to focus on was his 2.5 years of effort to bring the marriage back, while she betrayed him. I know you discount this effort, but it worked. He climbed the hill only to find out he was going to get pushed off of the cliff on the other side. She pushed him. She knew for 2 years what she was doing was wrong but she let him work, let him struggle and she admits she did NOT help him at all.

So it going to be a while before her H finishes his free fall and hits ground. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Meanwhile, she is calling OM again.

You are very correct if he were here we would be telling him to plan A or more likely after all of this time plan B her. The problem with Plan A is people think one can do it indefinitely and one cannot because it requires putting our taker on hold. If that goes on too long the taker comes back with a vengence and perhaps that is where her BS is.

If you read her posts carefully she really doesn't say much about her H or what he did to hurt her, she is just hurt. You don't hear about her actions or lack of them either.

So I suspect Pep's intuition maybe correct. She is focussing on the negative to support what she really wanted to do...call OM. She did that but I think and hope she realized what they would cost her.

Who knows. I do know that no matter what her BS is going to take awhile to get through this and she needs to be patient and a bit more thick skinned than she seems to be.

Must go. Just some thoughts.

JL

So if I get what everyone is saying:

Yes, FL's husband's comments hurt FL.
Yes, FL has hurt H deeply with her affair PLUS she is hurting him again without him even knowing it, by secretly contacting OM!

I guess the answer lies in honesty.
If H says something that hurts FL's heart, then she should say "H, that hurts my soul for you to say that"

And likewise when H has something on his mind, he needs to be able to say "FL, I am still hurting over the images in my mind of you and the OM having sex together" (Or something like that.)

I guess that is why I chose the ID 'Blessed TIME'. I must not forget my reason, which was in Blessed TIME, healing comes. Whether it be from unfaithfulness by our spouses, death of a beloved child or family member, divorce, and the countless other heartaches that life offers.

My motto has been "Blessings Happen"
I wish I had it for a bumper sticker.
We can NOT be HAPPY in life and dwell on the troubles and disappointments that inevidably come our way.

And we also need to remember that each and everyone of us has our shortcomings; if we did not, we wouldn't have need of our SAVIOUR!

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Now back to the garden!

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Julie ...

I agree with you but there is a way to express it better w/o adding more conflict but defuse the conflict and make them responsible on their own actions.

I had help numerous WS that was chased away by the attack or inflamed and missed the message. The most recent one has been able to start working on M w/ BW & they moved in 2 weeks ago <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . They will make it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

<small>[ May 12, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

just catching up on this thread now.

there are good points in here, thanks for directing it to me julie...

most important point to me is... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Her choice to see OM or not is about HER integrity</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are absolutely right. and that a better description to what i said when i posted in the other topic that my #1 reason was that i now believe that "i am better than that type of behaviour" so i guess that it is ok that my #1 reason was not so i would not hurt my H again.

i will not betray my own integrity again.

i have told him about this website, he is not interested. i think anything to do with the internet in his eyes is bad. and here is something that has been bothering me... i have not made it very clear that i am posting here. when i first told him about website i just mentioned all the articles here. he wanted nothing to do with that, i don't think he ever read the joseph's letter i printed for him.

i am not trying to bash him here, i understand, he has been badly hurt.

you guys are right. i am the one posting here, and i am doing that because i do appreciate the honest feedback on my actions.

i acknowledge you are only seeing my side of it. I assure you, I DO NOT want any excuses to start up A again. i realize my credibility has been damaged by the contact i made last week, so be it, i'm still glad i talked about it here.

there is another big piece to this picture that i have left out. i think i need to get it out if for no other reason than to keep it from eating at me. i am going to put it in the other topic.

i think i adressed everything from this post.

to summerize, for the record. i very much do appreciate everyone's feedback, i do agree that the best thing for ME is for you all to challange my actions and help them become actions that make me a better person regardless of outside stimulus.

i would hope i should be allowed to vent when needed, but in doing so, i have to vent, get it out and move on. i was wallowing in self-pity. i realize it is not a productive way to be.