Ok...here some low down, and I am having some doubts about strategy...

EXPOSURE
The exposure at WH work happpened. It did not result in much more than a stern discussion with the Employee Relations person, who shared that he needs to be conducting himself professionally, using discretion. He knows that the VP of the dept knows, but other than that, they we careful to keep it very discreet. I do not what, if anything, came of exposure in India for the OW.

Penny (marriage coach) shares that it is not that it didn't explode at work, with everyone knowing, or some harsh consequence, like WH getting fired. It is more about him knowing that others know, and although he is now acting like nothing happened...he knows that they know....

REQUEST FOR DIVORCE
As you know, WH e-mailed me asking for divorce... request for divorce story . As you know, I called him after I recvd the note (which, incidentally, he had sent to my work e-mail the evening of Mother's Day...so much for my complaint he didn't observe the day...he did...by sending an extremely hurtful note). I told him I did not want a divorce, told him I think things could be different, but overall, was very soft spoken the whole call (which if you knew me, would know this is NOT me...I am proudly a loud person). Ultimately, intermediary called him back and told him I was not interested in discussing divorce at this point, and wanted to rebuild our marriage. WH then was angry and called my Dad.

QUESTIONS ABOUT PLAN B, DISCUSSION WITH MY DAD
Now, parents are mad at me/not talking to me (because WH copied my Dad on the e-mail requesting D, and called my Dad after I hung up and intermediary called him to tell him I was being unreasonable, and obviously wanted to drag this out, spend a lot of money on an expensive divorce, etc.). My Dad wants to know why I cannot be a "mature adult and have a calm conversation with him." He says this cold shoulder, no contact thing (what we call Plan B) is totally immature, and makes no sense. Mature adults talk about their problems, and arrive at a suitable solution.

I tried to explain to him the MB principles, the Plan A/Plan B, that he should be PROUD of me that I am not giving up easily, that I am so committed to marriage, my faith, the vows I took, that I am willing to FIGHT for my marriage. He told me it was his responsbility to tell me when I am wrong.

So...EVERYONE (my pastor, my parents, his parents, friends, co-workers) are all asking why can't I just sit down and talk to him about everything. Communication is what will heal this. Communicate. You need to talk.

Also, I know this Plan B is a huge withdrawal from his LB$. He is angry that we are not talking, has articulated this to me (via e-mail at the beginning), his parents, even my kids.

Some would argue that it is working then. BUT....

It makes some sense that open and frequent communication is usually how two people having conflict resolve problems.

I am frustrated and hopeless....

Additionally, his BIG awards ceremony is this weekend in NY (where he is getting the ultimate recognition for his "contribution in India"....PUKE....) and he took his Mom, and they did not want to tell me about it, because it would hurt my feelings....and that actually hurt my feelings more....that it was this big secret, that I could not know, and found out about, etc.

I'm over it. Maybe I should just go have a quiet conversation, agree to the divorce, and move on.

Your frustration is understandable.

The truth is, you ARE willing to talk - as soon as there is something to talk about. Until he recommits to the marriage, there is nothing to discuss.

He can file for divorce if he wants. What is he waiting for?

Perhaps consider giving a copy of your Plan B letter to anyone who accuses you of being unreasonable.

What does Penny say about this aspect?

WAT

Another thought, Christy.

Is what they're trying to avoid - H and your Dad - an expensive divorce?

Again, you're not interested in divorce, but this doesn't mean you're gonna drag your feet and make it difficult and expensive, right? You know you cannot make someone stay married to you, right?

Leave him to his own devices. Let him file. Just don't help, but don't resist, either. Best thing that could happen may be for him to go back to India again and see her in the flesh.

Do you know the divorce rules in your locality? In most situations in N. America, you have to be separated for a year if minor children are involved. This is a long time in LaLa Land.

WAT

Christy I think WAT hit the nail on the head. If he want's a DV let him file, your not stopping him from filing are you? It's not like you have one of those shock collers for dogs and the fence around all the lawyer's offices in town. Copout. I think anything that has to be discussed about DV can be handled by lawyer's right?

Sorry, I could not help myself...Please notice the dark humor in this:

"WH then was angry and called my Dad."

So far so good...

"Now, parents are mad at me/not talking to me"

And they are NOT talking to you because you aren't talking to your WH.... and your parents believe this ---> "Mature adults talk about their problems, and arrive at a suitable solution." --->So their solution is to NOT talk to you!!!!

LOL

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Pep

Pep:

That's pretty good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But you know I like that kind of humor.

I also empathize with Christy's predicament. My W and my communication, or lack thereof, has been a huge problem for years. That's why I don't like plan B - well, that and the fact that I plan A'd so long now that when I moved out for 2 weeks recently, I felt more inclined to just give up than try to preserve my love for my W.

I came back home because she agreed to NC unless I agree that it's okay (not bloody likely). She's been "testing me" for 13 years now. Now it's my turn to test her integrity/honesty. I can tell if contact resumes. It was obvious 2 months ago.

We still don't talk much, but we do talk. I'm trying to follow a strategy plan that Penny suggested and that my W thought "is a good plan", but she still would rather work on trying to be friends, not address whether we should stay married or not at this time... ...of course, in the meantime, we're married, at least on paper.

-Qfwfq

Well, from their perspective, even having to hire an attorney at all is an investment...where if I would "cooperate," come to an agreement with him now, we could just go together and file the agreement (maybe would take $600 or so to finish). If he has to hire an atty, he is probably talking about spending at least $2,500 for the retainer right out of the gate, because he would have to make the assumption I would contest it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, you're not interested in divorce, but this doesn't mean you're gonna drag your feet and make it difficult and expensive, right? You know you cannot make someone stay married to you, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am definitely interested in reconciliation. But what tactics do you employ after he files, if not the very actions where you are dragging your feet (and thus, making it expensive)????

And no, I cannot make someone stay married to me, but couldn't one argue that by my refusal to "cooperate" I am doing just that...that is, by my not being willing to concede...trying to "make" something happen (reconciliation) that isn't currently??? Isn't this counter to the whole "If you love something, let it go...if it belongs to you, it will come back, if it doesn't.....
hunt it down and kill it, I mean, it was never meant to be yours" deal?

Also, his parents are IGNORANT about the whole situation, saying things like "Well, Christy, if he has fallen in love with someone else, do you really want to be with him? Why would you want to force something to be with you, when he has fallen in love with someone else."

I try to explain this is NOT love, just lust, and I can tell that, and I know it will crash and burn, and I love him enough (YES...this is REAL love...) that I would want to be there to rebuild when it happens. But they are of the mindset, that "love" just happens, etc.

This is all really hard for me. Why?

1.) I am a romantic at heart. And once upon a time, my WH fell in love, in probably much the same manner that he has "fallen in love" with this other woman, with me. So why is our "love" better than, more legit, more credible, more worthy than their "love?" There was a time when he did not know me much better than he knows her. When he and I were walking on cloud nine, in the fog, in the clouds, enjoying the newness, the magic, the fantasy. And yes, eventually reality set in, but by then, so many deposits were made, that we found we could live, and still love, in the reality mode. Why couldn't WH & OW someday have that?

2.) I am a big proponent of open and honest communcation, in fact, could probably be blamed for too open, and too honest. People definitely know where they stand with me, and I need to work on using more tact, diplomacy, and censure in my conversations with people, especially my H, as I was not always the most respectful person. But, as it stands right now, he is chalking up my silence to me giving him the silent treatment, and thus, being a *****, and disrespectful and childish.

And yeah, yeah, yeah...my Plan B letter talks all about my love for him, how I want to rebuild, how I own my faults/mistakes, how I would welcome and encorage contact at the end of the A, but all he hears is "No contact."

ChristyV:

"So why is our "love" better than, more legit, more credible, more worthy than their "love?"

It's not, IF:

♥You and your H together because you are sneaking around on someone else.

♥You lie, cheat, steal (my W didn't understand that one - it's from Schnarch, the WS "steals" the BS' right to a monogamous relationship without their knowledge or consent) to be together.

"2.) I am a big proponent of open and honest communcation, in fact, could probably be blamed for too open, and too honest. People definitely know where they stand with me, and I need to work on using more tact, diplomacy, and censure in my conversations with people, especially my H, as I was not always the most respectful person. But, as it stands right now, he is chalking up my silence to me giving him the silent treatment, and thus, being a *****, and disrespectful and childish."

I'm a big proponent of communication, too. I have felt the same way you do about this, and feel very odd "going dark." I do see it's usefulness, but also do wish to point out that there have been some very successful MBers that have NOT used plan B and fabulously recovered their marriages (LostVa comes to mind). It is a LOT harder, but so is working on recovery alone anyway. I've been doing it alone, and have only my W as a source of real feedback as to how I'm doing, but that's currently my favorite way to deal with it. My W never moved out, though. That's a big difference from your sitch (but LostVa's H DID move in with PT).

I'm in the minority on here, though. I won't say that it's more or less mature to use plan B or not. You have to find your own path.

-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

Christy,

When I went into Plan B (not comparing our stories, only comparing the WS reaction to Plan B), my H was SO angry. He told me via written notes that I was manipulating him, that I was in a "PLAN" and it was all a campaign, hence not sincere, to get him back. His anger came as a complete surprise to me, because after all, didn't he want to have me GONE so he could be with OW. Deal is, conversation was his 2nd most important EN, with SF as his first.

I was protecting my love for him, I had been in Plan A for 11+ months and my lovebank was nearly empty. I was getting angry at my husband and ohhhh soooooo weary with OW's abuse of me.

I think that's the indicator (lovebank balance) you need to stick with. You're doubting yourself because you want to make sure you're doing everything you can to recover your marriage. But if you go read why Harley says to migrate to Plan B it's when the BS starts losing love and begins LBing thus destroying any Plan A efforts made.

I know communication is important, it's pivotal in any successful relationship, but if you can't communicate with your H without LBing, then you should be in Plan B.

Implementing several Plan B's really deflates the effectiveness out of Harley's methodology. So if you're considering going back to Plan A, you want to weigh that in as well.

I'm here and reading. Thank you for posting an update. I worry.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ChristyV:
<strong>But what tactics do you employ after he files, if not the very actions where you are dragging your feet (and thus, making it expensive)????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's expensive, and then there's VERY expensive.

No one wants to see you funding the lawyer's kid's college education.

BUT - you can spend a minimal amount to make sure your interests are covered, but not formally "contest" the divorce. This is what I did.

Please have a consultation with an attorney to get the lay of the land. This will give you knowledge which is power.

WAT

Christy,

I want you to remember a few important things here while you are being bombarded with other non MB'rs advice(family).

First,Plan B does not guarantee that your WS will come back but it puts a stop to the pain and suffering continued contact with a WS causes.

Also,as much as everyone would like to see you talk with your WH,that is *their wish and not what is in your best interest right now.If you must concede to discuss a D with him then so be it but don't let other's force you into thinking that what you have been doing isn't worthwhile.I sense that you are questioning everything that you have done so far in this plan under the pressure of your family and WH tactics.Don't let them persuade you.

Second,I hate to hear you think and talk about WH and the homewrecker having "love" and a life together.Please don't be disillusioned.Real love does not come at the expense of other's and cause a great deal of pain and suffering such that happens in Adultery.It is WRONG on every level.The main problem I see with WS's that do not end the adultery right away is they allow these "feelings" to fester like an infection and it spreads causing more harm to everyone around them.If you think back to a time that you may have had deep feelings for someone and they didn't return those feelings or if you found out the person had a boyfriend,you end that relationship,you go through that pain but then it ends and you move on.Some WS'S don't do this and rightfully give the marriage and family it's chance.What if we all just dumped our families and hurt our spouses and children every time we fell "in love".Geeze!! Is that what our lives are supposed to be like,jumping from one emotional "high" to the next,leving a path of destruction in our wakes, as Dr.Phil states??

Your WH will do whatever he wants,we know that and if he wants to blame the fact that you cut off contact because of his hurtful,selfish actions then that is his agenda.It all comes back to blaming you doesn't it.I hear a lot of sentiment about contact perhaps being the way to salvage the relationship but I don't agree.If a WS does not stop the adultery then there is nothing to discuss except legal issues.Just what would be gained from talking all this time?? We have heard from other's who have talked for months and months ,Plan A'd for what seems an eternity only to be walked all over by the WS.It's cake eating by the WS to desire the conversation with the BS AND also have their OP on the side,nothing more IMO.

In all honesty I don't think that the comments made by your parents are helpful or supportive.It sounds as if they do not have all the information needed to be completely objective about this situation and they would like nothing more to see everything be settled amicably,for their sakes, while you suffer in the process.I'm sorry if this offends you but I base my opinion on my own dealings with my family and IN-Laws.

Perhaps they(family) also need to be in the periphery right now since talking with them has made you second guess yourself.I know of no other website that truly helps a BS as much as this one and has a proven plan to help marriages or at least help you through all the "stages" of Infidelity,even if it does end in a D.

O

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl...thank you. You are right.

Here is where I am. Basically, talk or not talk, our marriage is declining fast...and this is currently not my fault. I need to give myself some credit that I would even want to fight to retain my marriage. Most people would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. I want to forgive. I want to move on. I want to love. I want to share my life with this man. I want to remain true to my vows, for better or worse.

I will wait and see what his next step is, and really, really start to embrace what Plan B REALLY is.

We BS's forget the whole premise... we think of it as another tactic to get our spouse back.

BUT IT IS NOT.

Let's be honest about what it is.

Is is a place where you can go and protect yourself, protect your love for your spouse, and learn to heal yourself. Heal yourself for the hurts inflicted by your spouse. Heal yourself from the hurts inflicted before your spouse, inflicted by yourself, inflicted by life.

And in doing so, you become more whole. More healthy. More complete. And thus, more able to deal with whatever life brings your way at that point. You are whole...you are strong...you are healing... you are happy...despite the current tragic circumstances...and you are then able to face life confidentally, whether it is the hard task of divorce, or the even harder task of reconciliation. Or the hard task of just being single and alone. Or the the hard task of being something for other people, like your kids, your God, your extended family, your career. Or the hard task of creating your own joy.

I am realizing that I am not using Plan B wisely. I am still too caught up...what is he doing? What is he thinking? Will this act be the thing that wakes him up? Will this task be the thing that makes the difference? What did this mean? What did that mean? Curling up on my bed late at night to just cry. And hurt. And dream of him. And miss him. And the wound is just bleeding, but I am not in my present state doing much to heal the wound.

I look back on my past...and how my relationship with WH evolved. There was a time when we had a big, nasty, painful breakup. I was young, I was insecure, I was dramatic.

I had to eventually pick myself up and heal. I sought my God, my friends, my family. I quit going to the bars, desperately looking for some other male companionship. I quit hating him, wishing him ill, wishing he would fail, or suffer, or pay for the pain I was in. I just came to a place of peace. Peace for who I was. Peace to just be in early on a Saturday night. Peace to have guys in my life who were just friends. Relief to not have to nurture, coddle, or stroke a love relationship. A time to just laugh...and love, without all the "fog" and complication of romance, and I was finding my smile.

And it was then when WH, then lost boyfriend, came back. Because I had a glow. I was once again the me that I really am. I was once again the person that most anyone would want to love. And it was magnetic, because I had found myself, and my lost H, who is so lost and hurting, wanted that for himself desperately. I was whole, and he wanted to be whole, too.

I realized after a long talk with a friend last night, that I was repeating that same pattern from a long time ago. Maybe with less drama (although not much less...ha ha), but still unsure of who I am. Who I can be. Feeling really lonely, and anxious to either fix this M, or get on with it so I can have someone else in my life. Feeling paralyzed by my pain, my anger, my current situation.

And it is the same journey that brings us to where we are now. WH is lost and hurting, seeking to be whole. And I tried to make him whole for a long time, and lost myself again...and on some level, I was mad, and hurting for once again giving myself away so completely that I was not who I am, anymore. He has to find the joy all on his own. WHATEVER happens to our M. I so want him to find that. And I know it will not be found in another woman. It isn't there. The answer he is seeking is all about the hole in his spirit that he is trying to fill...and it is a journey of healing that he must make alone...with just him and God.

I am going to stop working on my marriage...and start working on me.

I have tried to show my H how much I truly, truly love him. How I am a passionate, affectionate, sexual, funny, sensitive, caring, forgiving, intelligent woman. How I am a good mother, with a GIANT heart for others. How I am a child of God, somehow "WORTHY" of his love.

And I have tried, despite everything, to showcase this in my actions. I have done everything I can do. I can do nothing more....but love. And I do. And somewhere deep inside, he knows this.

Now I have to stop...STOP being a captive of this situation. STOP. I can't do it anymore. I still have so much to offer other people...and myself.

I can offer my friendship...and deep belly laughs from a late night conversation, filled with angst, sarcasm, jokes, and realization of life's irony.

I can offer my employer my creative mind...something I have been wasting in vain on my Marriage right now.

I can offer my children the important lesson of how to find joy and love, in even the most painful circumstances.

I can offer myself more respect for me. Treat myself better. Eat better. Exercise. Feed my mind and soul. Nurture my spirit. Follow my passions. Or just sit back on my porch, enjoy my new garden, and drink a glass of wine to jazz music.

And it will only in becoming whole, that I will have a WHOLE life, despite who I choose to share it with.

Thank you MB friends. For my long rant. And your constant support.

WOW I must say that this is where I need to be now I'm not going to care what happens with my M anymore. Your right Christy my W need's to fix herself and there is nothing I can do to help, this will have to be on her own and her own decision. Right now it is time to work on me and be that person that everyone knew at one point and time. I'm going real dark now but I will leave a light on so I can see me and work on me. Thank you for this profound statement that will start me in the right direction.

Tinman,

I am with you. I need out of this mess myself. PBL is in his hand tom for the second time now. I will post if I need to break it.

HINY

I don't think there is anybody in my family who really understands the Marriage BUilders principles. And really little to none of the advice I've gotten from my friends and family (or even lawyer and counselors) has been that helpful. They mean wll but they don't really know what to tell you that will be effective. The principles taught here are pretty cutting edge. That's why so few people (even counselors) know about them. People will pretty much tell you one of two things:

get on with your life

or shut up and put up

They won't use those exact words but that's what it comes down to for most folks. They really don't know of any other options.

Part of the reason there's an epidemic of adultery and divorce in our culture is BECAUSE so few people, including the professionals, understand why affairs happen and how to stop them. So we aren't going to find much support in following MB principles. We just have to accept that and be wiling to do what we've learned to try to save our marriages without the support of family and friends who don't understand.

The fact is, most of our family and friends will not realize that MB principles work unless they see us successfully apply them. AFTER we have proved it works - by either saving our marriages or being able to honestly move on to a beter future after doing all we could to try to save our marriages, THEN our well-meaniing family and friends will understand.

We will just have to get our support from each other here meanwhile. We're the brave pioneers blazing the trail. A decade from now this stuff will hopefully be common knowledge and the adultery/divorce epidemic will be just an embarrassing past phase that our children and grandchildren won't have to suffer through in their marriages.

<small>[ May 14, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Very well put Christy.

My WH also is trying to fill a void or trying to find something now with a different woman when he had everything and more right here at home all the time.It is his journey and I no longer can be part of it.I am feeling an urgent need to let him go completely so I can heal completely.I cannot while I am still married to him and he is still in my life.

I have waited for what seems an eternity for WH to change or give me,us, our marriage a chance but he does not want that so his time is up.I told him that I would not wait eternally for him but that I loved him and thought we could have the best marriage ever,and give that gift to our children.We each have our limits and mine is upon me.

I am at the end of my rope.Even Plan B no longer helps me.I need to put this painful situation behind me somehow.There is too much pain and I am doing poorly waiting and hoping for change that will not happen.My soul is sick,really sick and I have to do what feels right and filling out the paperwork from my Mediator for a D feels like the right thing for me.I ask for God's help and this is the path I am on so I follow it.

You have a lot to offer someone else one day in your life but I believe that before that,you need to be alone.Alone to heal,reflect,grow within yourself.I don't need a man in my life to complete me.I never have and never will.If I do have a man in my life,it is to experience the joys of life WITH someone,not FOR someone.I know I will be alright alone.I have always felt comfortable within myself and with who I am.I have always known who I am so I never had a need to try and find that out through other people.

I am glad you are focusing more on yourself.We have been telling you that all along.It's hard to do though.It's hard not to think about this major life altering experience,it affects you to the very core of your soul.This is what I am grappling with.How to heal my soul.

Missing your WH and thinking about him and crying,all those thoughts and feelings will eventually fade and not be so raw.It will be a new way of life,not having your WH if that's what happens.I know that is what is happening to me.

It is true that it is time to put down the "tools" and stop working on the marriage.It's like a carpenter trying to build a table without a hammer.At some point we have to give up the fight.One person can try to save the marriage for only so long and then the spirit dies,slowly when we fail to have the support from the spouse.That's me at this point.

Anyway,here is a prayer from my daily book that I think you might like:

Gratitude

~My morning routine may be predictable,but today I am deciding to take nothing for granted.I start this day with gratitude for everything: the air I breathe as it breezes gently through an open window; those last minutes in the morning of being surrounded by soft pillows and blankets;the exhiliration of a refreshing,warm shower.Before I have even left the home,I have discovered so much to be thankful for.

I am grateful for all my blessings,but most of all I am thankful that God loves me.My path in life-with all the experiences that have brought me to where I am today-has heightened my awareness of God's love for me.I am glad to be living life from a spiritual perspective,aware of God's love for me in each moment~

O

Octobergirl,

I understand and respect where you are right now. I am not quite there yet, but, then again, have not been going around this mountain quite as long as you have. But try as we might, matters of the soul can ONLY be faced and solved by the individual that is facing it. And as much as we would like to handle it, fix it, heal it for them, we can't...so in that regard, we are pretty powerless to do much but just try to convey our love and support for our spouse.

And I think we have all done that. I don't think there is one WS that we are dealing with that does not know ON SOME LEVEL that we love them, want to move on, want to fight for our marriage.

WOW, I'm inspired by you all, and apparently my H wants to stay, so far anyway. It's strange, whether we're on the Plan A or Plan B track, we have to start taking care of ourselves. We have to start living our lives, and learn how to not have our S's A continue to hurt us. I'm not there yet, but I sure want to be. You Plan Bers are sooooo strong! CV

CV:

I have told you dozens how HERCULEAN I think your strength is....I think I would have already said **** IT if my FWH was crying in his milk everyday....I think that would be where I would be SOOOOOOOO unable to cope....SOOOOOO angry that he is wasting one single tear on HER. How about the nuclear BOMB you have set off at home, A**HOLE!

So, hang in there. You are the strong one. And one day, he had BETTER recognize, and REWARD that!

Christy, to be fair to H, he isn't crying in his milk anymore. I usually pull out of him when he's missing the "B". However, he is pretty miserable on varying levels because of the mess he caused. Truthfully, I'm not sure if it's better to just dump them, which is what I always said I'd do if H had an A, or do this MB thing. Our M would probably be over if I had kicked him out immediately. This is like Chinese Water Torture at times. Every day I mentally cuss out H for being such an idiot. He really had a good thing with me, but wasn't able to deal with a painful year and his own issues. And I cuss out OW for being such a flesh eating vulture. I guess I'm not walking a very spiritual path at the moment. Hey, it's where I am. CV