Hi ladies:

I feel guilty even asking this, because I’m afraid of touching a nerve. But you have a perspective that I want. So if this doesn’t pick at the scab too much, maybe you can share and let me see the world through your lenses for a while.

I’m usually very adept seeing and feeling other’s point of view. It’s a strength (and weakness) of mine – to relate to where everyone’s coming from.

But here’s one thing I CANNOT get: A few weeks ago, I told FWH that I feel like OW (especially this last one) has stolen something precious from me that I can never regain. Even though she doesn’t have him now, she had him last summer – and for months, she knew him better than I did. That time can never be retrieved. It’s just gone – and it belongs to her. I feel utterly rejected, like I lost something so valuable; I will never be the only woman to hear FWH say, "I love you." I will never be the only one to sleep next to him. I will never be the only woman to shower with him. ... And on it goes.

In an effort to comfort me, FWH said, "You think you lost?!? BH03, you won! In her eyes, you won! She kept calling me [after he broke off the relationship] to ask, ‘Why did you choose her? Why not me? Why did she win?’"

Ok. So intellectually, I understand her statements. She was in love with FWH. Deep down, she’s desperate to be married, have children. She’s single, intelligent, attractive – but like so many women today, she hasn’t met "the right one." And she really, really believed my FWH was her soul mate. (A view he didn’t share – nor was he in love with her. But I digress.)

Anyway. On a thinking level, I understand. But I can’t FEEL her emotions in this area. I think my own feelings of loss are so enormous, I can’t comprehend why she would feel a loss too – and possibly even a GREATER loss, from what FWH is telling me.

So. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Can you help me here? Can you describe to me your feelings of loss or rejection so that I can feel a little better about my own?

(Ha! That last statement is EXACTLY why I say this is a selfish request. And it is. I just hope you don’t take it as a mean-spirited one. It’s not meant that way.)

BH03

Hi BH03

This does pick at the scab and I don't want to be flamed by anyone because what I am talking about was then, not now. But I would like to help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even though she doesn&#8217;t have him now, she had him last summer &#8211; and for months, she knew him better than I did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She didn't know him better than you did. She knew the part of him he showed her. You've seen him at his best and at his worst. I can assure you that she hasn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That time can never be retrieved. It&#8217;s just gone &#8211; and it belongs to her. I feel utterly rejected, like I lost something so valuable </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to ask my H if he feels like this but to me everything in life has a reason. Any experience either makes you grow or see yourself clearer or see the world clearer. JL has pointed out to me many times that I don't know what I've lost but I still find this hard to see because even though all this has been very painful, H and I have actually gained something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In an effort to comfort me, FWH said, "You think you lost?!? BH03, you won! In her eyes, you won! She kept calling me [after he broke off the relationship] to ask, &#8216;Why did you choose her? Why not me? Why did she win?&#8217;" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought this but certainly had enough pride never to say it aloud to anyone. I don't like visiting this part of the past but it's true, I saw it that OM's W had won.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And she really, really believed my FWH was her soul mate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, yuck, yes this was my thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can&#8217;t comprehend why she would feel a loss too &#8211; and possibly even a GREATER loss, from what FWH is telling me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've tried to explain this before. OM and OW are not just the initials "OM". They are people. I genuinely liked OM. Losing him has been losing a friend and someone I thought I loved. So, normal grief sets in just as though someone has died. To save my marriage and to reconnect with my H, I know I can never see OM again. That takes quite a bit of getting over but I will never contact him again.

There have been a few bumps in the road because H knows I still think about him and it kills him. Like you, he just doesn't understand why I still think about him.

I know your request isn't mean spirited and I'm all for sorting out our feelings, BS and WS. It's the only way to move forward.

I know that at this stage, time will be the healer. The longer I concentrate all my attention on H and the longer it's been since I last saw OM, the better our M will be.

They say it takes 2 years to fully recover, which doesn't surprise me because that is generally speaking the average time for grief (BS and WS) to become manageable.

Hope I've helped. You're very lucky that your H is trying so hard to help you.

Jenny

KiwiJ:

I was hoping you would respond. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I so respect your point of view and your recovery.

Yes, my FWH is working valiantly. We've really come a long way in 6 months. It helps that this affair knocked him down so far that he has FINALLY dealt (and is dealing) with the issues that drove him to these affairs in the first place. True change is the best hope, don't you think?

Your perspective does help. Trust me -- I know the OW (and OM) are flesh-and-blood people, just like BS and WS. I understand that she grieved the loss of the relationship. In fact, I probably understand it TOO much. Ever since D-Day, I've been "explaining" OW to FWH. Being a man, he just didn't comprehend her or her reactions. I understand. So each time she calls, he'll tell me what she said -- then I'll decipher it for him.

I guess that's why this feels doubly hard for me. I feel like I KNOW this woman, even though we only met once. I probably know more about the "real" her than many of her close friends. But I cannot get beyond this feeling that she won the war. Because she helped FWH betray me and his vows to me.

Does that make sense?

BH03

Thanks BH03, I'm really touched that you respect my point of view.

OW didn't win the war, you did. Isn't it a funny way of putting it, but that's what it is. My H feels exactly like you - because I still think about OM, he still sometimes feels anxious and jittery. I don't tell H I'm thinking about OM, but he can tell because I get very guarded and quiet. I try not to (a) think about OM and (b) show that I'm thinking about OM, but sometimes I can't help it.

It's also funny (not ha ha) that you try to explain OW to your H. H has spent a lot of time explaining to me about the type of man OM is (or likes to think he is). He thinks I'm very naive and I probably am. But as I explained to H, no one likes to think they've been used.

Good luck.

Jenny

Jenny:


This quote made me smile.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H has spent a lot of time explaining to me about the type of man OM is (or likes to think he is). He thinks I'm very naive and I probably am. But as I explained to H, no one likes to think they've been used. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's such a stellar example of the difference between men and women.

I don't think my FWH is naive, but he's more Vulcan than human. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So I've been trying to explain to him why OW acted the way she did when he cut off their relationship so suddenly. In his opinion, she just got "emotional" and "volatile" and "went off the deep end." To a degree, he's right. But I've been trying to make him see that she was in love with him and that makes people do strange things. She felt abandoned. Like he broke unspoken promises to her.

At one point, she even said, "What do you think this is -- an AFFAIR?!?" He was baffled by that statement and didn't bother to respond. To me, it's obvious -- she didn't think she was an OW. She thought they were beginning a "new, beautiful relationship."

Anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I could go on. But my toddler is destoying my office.

Thanks for your help.

BH03

P.S. Want to hear my Kiwi story? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> FWH and I were priviledged to watch the America's Cup a few years back aboard a New Zealand boat. We struck up a friendship with our hosts and were quickly drawn in by their warm spirits and ready laughs. We even managed to take a sail on the Enza's huge catamaran. (And we were overjoyed with the Kiwis won the cup that year. What a great victory.) Just wanted you to know that your countrymen stole our hearts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks BH, what a nice thing to say about us kiwis.

I'll repay the compliment. My mother won a trip to Fiji last year and I went with her. On our plane and at our resort were two lovely couples from Colorado. They were really nice, friendly warm people and took my mum and I under their wing because we were two women on our own. We ended up exchanging addresses.

Also at a family wedding last year the US side of my niece's in law's family were there. There were two boys (one living in New Jersey and one in California) the same age as my son and daughter, You'd have thought these kids had known each other for ever. Same taste in music, clothes, movies, everything. Talk about a global village. LOL.

Jenny

BH03 - I saw this post yesterday, started to respond, and then stopped myself. I am a BS (so I can't answer your question) but was struck by one of your comments...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "You think you lost?!? BH03, you won! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, this is something I would like explained to me...what did I win? My H told me I won also. Okay, I see that H is home with me and has ended things with her but does that mean I won? I understand that the OW has 'feelings' (even though she obviously doesn't understand that I do) but, like kiwi said, she saw him at his best...I'm the one who has stuck by him throught his worst (which has not been fun) and she's the one who gets him at his best? When I think about the he!! I'm going through and I think about the fact that I've now 'joined the club' and will live with my H's A for the rest of my life I wonder how I won?

A response to something kiwi wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I genuinely liked OM. Losing him has been losing a friend and someone I thought I loved. So, normal grief sets in just as though someone has died. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this feeling completely...it's how I feel about my H. I've lost my friend...someone I did love. I grieve for my lost marriage...yes, some say that marriage after an A can be better...sorry, but I don't believe that's true...if it were then it would be okay for us all to have As...after all, it would better our M, right?

I will carry this baggage with me for the rest of my life...even if I 'get over it' it will still be a part of me for the rest of my life...there are no happy memories to go with it...OW and H have those memories...OW goes back to her H and kids, my H goes back to his W (me) and kids...I get the pain of 'winning'.

BH03 - I do think that perhaps part of the pain OW is feeling is because she was single (right?). She didn't have a H or kids to return home to...seems like she might really have thought he was hers...whereas most OWs hopefully return home and realize their 'fog' eventually...

LosingFocus:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I think about the he!! I'm going through and I think about the fact that I've now 'joined the club' and will live with my H's A for the rest of my life I wonder how I won?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is EXACTLY how I feel. I don't see how I won; I only see how we all LOST. OW lost "her soulmate," FWH lost self-respect (and so much more) and I lost my trust. Affairs are TRULY a lose-lose situation. I see it no other way.

I guess that's why I asked the question -- if I can understand what the OW lost, maybe I'll understand what I won. Obviously, I won a future with my husband, but our relationship will always carry these scars.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, some say that marriage after an A can be better...sorry, but I don't believe that's true...if it were then it would be okay for us all to have As...after all, it would better our M, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what the Wise Ones mean by that commnent is -- your marriage CAN be better after an affair. But it's not a given. (Hence, there's no reason for everyone to rush out and get involved in affairs.) And I think almost all marriages would be able to get to that Better Marriage state WITHOUT an affair if both partners (but particulary, the WS) would make better choices and be more mature in the way they deal with each other.

Heck, my parents have a GREAT marriage -- and neither of them has ever had an affair. So obviously, it's possible.

It's just that this is the hand of cards we've been dealt -- so we need to play the game like THIS now. And we can still "win," even after infidelity.

(Ok, bad analogy. Sorry.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do think that perhaps part of the pain OW is feeling is because she was single (right?). She didn't have a H or kids to return home to...seems like she might really have thought he was hers...whereas most OWs hopefully return home and realize their 'fog' eventually... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're absolutely right. OW is single. She's in her mid-30s. She's attractive, intelligent, etc. I think she projects a type of "Sex and the City" sophistication; like, "Hey, I'm fine here with my friends and my career. I don't need a MAN!"

But her affair with FWH shows just the opposite. She started pressuring him to leave me (pregnant with a 1-year-old daugher whom he adores) after they were only together 2 weeks (and only in the same city 1 week). The weeks he was with her, she wanted to live a "normal couple" life. They would finish up at work, go to dinner, go back to the hotel, talk or watch TV and then have sex after they got into bed and turned out the lights. She kept talking about the beautiful children they could have together.

So OBVIOUSLY, her heart is longing to have a companion, to have children.

In fact, after he broke up with her -- and she fell APART becasue she thought she and he were meant to be together -- she was FURIOUS that he had seen that side of her. That he had seen how deeply she wants to be with someone. That he had seen her fall apart over a MAN. She was humiliated.

So sad. I truly feel sorry for her.

BH03

Hi...It is always harder on the OP that was the one that was 'dumped'!

In my case, it was my H that was involved with an unmarried lady that adored him.
They had an affair for at least a year and got away with it. (I hadn't a clue!)

But the fear of losing him to someone else sure turned me around to become a great lover myself with him!

His OW met someone else, someone she could marry and have a home and life with and left my H along the roadside!
It broke his heart, I think he loved her.
And he loved me. (I guess he would have made a good Morman <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

She had him so around her finger and he was so smitten by her.
When it comes to Plan A, her every word was kindness and honey and admiration for him!

I am going to go to one of my folders and bring back a couple SEXY notes that she wrote to him (I figured out his secret password, he doesn't even know I have these e-mails!) just to show you how deeply involved they WERE!
Sincerely, Julie

I am a FOW, FWW I don't feel I lost because I have my H and my M, and we are recovering. I talked with my OM S the other night, and I can tell you, no matter how genuine he and I felt the A was when we was in the fog, it is not the same thing as the commitment of a M. She is his soul mate, she knows him better than anybody. I can fully concede to that. She will lovingly mow the lawn because he is too damn lazy, not me. You absolutely won, he chose you, A are mistakes, the time you lost with him should be such a devasting time for him that he should want to forget every moment, therefore you shouldn't worry about the time lost. You won, rejoice and be glad in it.

LF about your comment on marriages being better after an A. IMO my marriage was in trouble, it wasn't a good marriage, so yes, mine will be better after this A, it is a lousy way to obtain the better, cheating the system, and I regret everyday of it, but I do know I will prevent it from happening again.

I think as time goes by AND more importantly you build a happy future together, you will be able to realize and appreciate that you have 'won'.

I remember struggling with this too (after WH's previous affairs).


I thought this response was hilarious:

"At one point, she even said, "What do you think this is -- an AFFAIR?!?" He was baffled by that statement and didn't bother to respond. To me, it's obvious -- she didn't think she was an OW. She thought they were beginning a "new, beautiful relationship."

If you haven't done so already please post it in the fog-talk thread. (fog-talk from OW) My WH's current OW didn't think of herselfas the "OW" either... I got to tell her she not only was the OW but only OW #7.

This thread is very appropriate for me to read today. I'm not looking at this A today as this great opportunity to build a better M. I'm looking at it as something I will be forced to live with for the rest of my life. If you read my post today you will understand my negativity.

OW wrote H a letter when he ended it and said "I think you are being selfish because you didn't pick me." Like the A was so unselfish. she really thought he was going to dump me and our boys. Actually he was contemplating it. Oh, this is great fogese. Ow told H during the A when he told her what they were doing was wrong, they were committing adultery, she said, "We aren't having an A because we are in-love." That's right, screwing someone who has been married for 18 yrs. suddenly isn't adultery. OK oW, let's just rewrite the definition so anyone IN-LOVE can be involved with someone who's married.

The other thing that hit me was what you said Broken about losing something precious. I wonder if there was anything they didn't do sexually that is still between just he and I. Probably not. H was my best friend, but will I ever feel like that again? I don't feel like a winner here.

Kiwi, I too respect you, and all the recovering WSs who have helped me through these months. In saying that it KILLS me that my H feels any grief for the conniving "B" that pursued him and contributed to the worst pain of my life. I hope I get over those feelings one day. Right now I can't stand her.

Losing Focus, I hate it that H and I are now part of "The Club." We made it 18 yrs. without betrayal, and now we're one of these dismal statistics.

I could go on and on. Sorry gang, I'm not a happy camper today. CV