I haven't posted my own thread for a while. i debated about posting here, or should I be posting on the recovery forum. Someone recently asked why people post here instead of on the recovery forum, and I realize when I go there I feel hopeless. Maybe I don't read enough of the posts, but it just doesn't seem like many people are really recovered. Maybe it's just my present negative state of mind.

It's been 7 weeks since H has had NC with OW. In many ways it has been going pretty well, especially compared to some of the hellish stories I read in here. So I hope you all don't think I am being too big of a whiner here. My grief over this A is hitting me again. I can move along pretty well, even felt happy the other day, and then it hits me like a ton of bricks. I think I was triggered by H and I working on Steve's assignment to talk about the "what happened" of the A. Steve wants us to open up the wound and clean it out. Fun! H told me OW wrote him a letter, and they drove to this park, sat on a bench, and she read the letter to him out loud. This was the crossover point to them acknowledging feelings, and H keeping secrets from me. It was probably around this time last year. What was I doing? I went back into therapy so I could get help in dealing with my very sick dad, and also being there for H and my boys.

Early this morning H and I were talking about this. The conversation didn't bring us closer together. I know I was LBing, but not exactly sure how. And he wasn't comforting. Hey, we're not perfect, I know.

We used some of the Retrouvaille techniques to convey our feelings. Mine are the following. I feel hopeless. Like I'm in a concrete room, with a huge wall, with a small space between the wall and the ceiling. I'm just not sure I can get over the wall to the other side. The other image I had is being in a cozy cabin in the woods when an avalanche hits. I feel like I'm buried alive and am not sure I can dig my way out. In both images I'm trying to get out alone.

Sometimes H's A just seems too big. Like I'm not sure how to get over it. Last night for the 90th time I tried to understand how H could have invited that "B" to out house in-between visiting hrs. of my dad's wake. I tried to understand why OW was participating in my dad's funeral. Why wasn't she back at the funeral home doing her "F"ing job, and answering phones. H says he had nothing to do with that. Partner worked that out. So why did the "B" agree to be there? My memory of my dad's funeral is forever altered.

Why can't I get that out of my head? Is it a PTSD symptom that will eventually go away? It's the icing on the cake of this A. I know H didn't love me back then. I don't understand how he could have had such little respect for me, my family, and my dad. I know I'm trying to understand something that can't be understood.

The more I know about OW and how she pursued H, the more I hate her. I realize I will have to eventually get over those feelings. Become indifferent to her again, so I don't allow her to keep "F"ing me over in my head. I'm not there yet. So many of you had your WSs have an A with your best friend. I can't even imagine that. It's hard enough for me knowing OW for 4 yrs. and I wasn't even friends with her. Knowing that while she was sleeping with H she was eating lunch with my boys last summer when they worked at the funeral home. Knowing the times I had personal contact with her and she acted so nice. And I'm most angry at H for allowing that. Couldn't he have kept us separate from her?

Are my feelings normal? If any recovered WSs are reading this, if you did anything especially crappy to your BS, were you ever able to understand that? When I try to understand H's behavior, especially about events around my dad's death, he tells me he feels smothered. Never told me that before. I'm sure he feels overwhelmed.

I guess I don't have anything else to say. Maybe I'm looking for encouragement from those of you who have walked this path and hopefully recovered. I need to know it's worth it. Times like now I'm losing my focus. Knowing H is still experiencing grief over OW, although he says it's grief over the whole A and what it did, makes me sick. Grieving over someone who willfully caused me and our family so much pain.

One more thing that maybe is a problem. I dropped out of IC about a month ago because frankly my problem is the A. I was just talking about the same stuff. We stopped MC because H was in such withdrawal it wasn't worth it. Began working with SH to help us get more stable, but haven't talked to him in 3 weeks. It's just too expensive, but we will next week. H is in IC, which is good, but it doesn't help us to heal, especially me. Is there a good path to take to heal from this? Thanks and sorry if this is long and rambling. I've been up since 4:30 am talking and crying. CV

CV55

Once again you've coaxed me out of the shadows. I'm not exactly sure what I might say that will help, but we are at similar points in our "recovery".

I don't have any experiences that are remotely comparable to the death of your father, and I can only imagine how devastating it must be to have that in your thoughts.

I took my WW to Hawaii in Feb 03, and she insisted on taking her unmarried sister along. This was viewed by me as our 30th wedding anniversary "trip", although 1/2 of it was business related for me. It really pi$$ed me off, because I imagined a romantic get-a-way. This was pre-A, but it should have been a red flag to me that my marriage was in trouble. She was distant to me, even then. (All this 1.5 years after a EA online with one of my former classmates she met at a High School Reunion). We were supposed to be working on our marriage, and the Hawaii trip was supposed to be a highlight marking our progress.

Regarding events taking place while the A was going on, I think of holidays, weekend trips following son's soccer team, another son buying his first house, birthday's and just about any other semi-significant occurance that took place, were basically not what they appeared to be. She could only be a "part" of those things, as the "alien" creature she had become.

I guess that brings me to the point of this. Not only did we, as BS's, "lose out" on what we felt were important moments in our lives, likewise, the WS's experience is no better. When they participated family matters, while in their alien state, they were cheating not only their family, but also themselves, of the experience.

I believe this is part of the complex process of the WS choosing outwardly to "not talk about the A , let's just move forward". But I do think that WS's experience an immense amount of guilt over these things, like your Dad's funeral, but it's too complex for them to process all the damage they've done. Yes, some of it is self-denial, but I believe they really do comprehend most of it. The entire dynamic of the experience is so filled with multiple layers of drama, that when coupled with the (sigh) grieving for the OP, it's just more than they can process.

The other point is this. We have a choice in how we spend our thoughts. We can allow triggers to keep us in the past. We can allow anger and frustration to "extract yet another pound of flesh" from the WS, by trying to get them to break down and grovel for forgiveness and acceptance. We might even feel better for achieving that, in the short term. but, it generally causes more damage than good.

Or we can choose to welcome the "partial" alien back into our lives. We can choose to forgive and move forward. We can choose to focus on today, and tomorrow, rather than let the past dictate our feelings to us each day. We can continue to live the positive changes we've made in ourselves through Plan A, and let the work continue to be done.

In our childhood, we saw too many fairy tales and movies where there was a happy relationship, a crisis, the crisis was resolved, and they lived happily ever after. All that happened in 30 minutes or an hour. In this reality show we call life, these same stories play out, but over months , over years.

I think we BS's expect too much, too fast, when going from DDay to recovery. Deep seated emotions do not fade away quickly, unless there's a dramatic occurance the turns the WS against the OP, it's just a long, drawn out process. All we can do is provide understanding and support. To do otherwise would be to LB.

You have come so far. Do not let these bad memories interfere with your progress. They will come like waves in the ocean, typically, "six" smaller ones that are easily handled, then the "seventh" may wash over you and cause you pain.

It is up to you how you allow it to affect you. You have been so strong. Live life day to day, and keep your attitude positive, and you will have fully exorcized the alien from your FWH's body. You will be one of the success stories, posting here to provide inspiration for others. You have already inspired many with your posts. Draw from the inner strength that's brought you this far, to get you through this.

One other note. Don't give up on the counseling. We did some counseling while the fog was still fully in place, and accomplished very little. So we stopped for a while. Now that the fog has mostly cleared, the counselor is connecting with my WW, and we are seeing some progress.

Back into the shadows for me...

SD

CV

I can't help you with recovery, but I can say I am learning from you so if I ever do get there I will know better what to expect. I also wonder sometimes why I am even still here doing this, and I wonder how I would get through recovery if given the chance. God bless you and keep going, you are one strong woman I give you that.

HINY

CV55
I can understand where you are coming from. Memories and experiences remembered one way are altered now that different things have been brought to light by our partners A's. It sounds like the OP (in both our instances) were predators preying on our spouses. That doesn't lessen anything that they did, b/c in the end they still chose to allow the A by participating in it. Will they ever change? I can't answer that.

I will provide one more point. My father passed away 10 years ago. At the time, I remembered that my parents argued ALL the time. I just found out recently that he had had 3 A's and was close to leaving my mother for another woman. Looking back at the funeral there was a woman there that nobody knew. Someone said that she worked at the office of the company where my dad worked (he was in construction). Now I wonder if that was the one. Who knows? I don't know if I'll ever find out, but it's something that will stick in my mind for quite sometime. Good luck.

HR

Thanks SD and NY. NY, I wonder almost every day if this is worth it. Thanks for calling me strong, because I'm not feeling too strong today. When I read what you are going through I feel like one big, gigantic wimp!

SD, thanks for coming out of the shadows. I've wondered how you are. As usual, I don't know why, but I cried the whole time I read your post. How many times have I written that to you on here? I think it's because you get me.

What you said about the events is so true. Last year at this time I went through my graduation ceremony. The other day I found pictures of the day, with one of me in my cap and gown and H. I thought he was so happy for me. Now I know he was into the EA. Now I know why the day after I felt so sad about our M. Nothing is what it seemed to be. He told me this morning he let his partner take care of everything regarding my dad's funeral, which is the way it should be because my dad was like a father to H. H said he wanted to be there to support me. Great support! He's "F"ing OW while my dad is dying in the hospital, and she's writing him love letters at that time telling him how great the sex was. Yeh, he held my hand in church during the funeral mass. Thanks! Then within a couple of weeks they're going out to dinner together, going away on a business trip together that chumpolla me knew about. I know I can't dwell in the past, but the dad thing is huge for me. I guess that's why I keep writing about it on here. How could that man have sunk that low? He's sorry, but what do I need from him? What is it going to take for me to forgive him? I still don't think he quite gets it. I asked him how he'd feel if he knew I was screwing one of his dad's pallbearers. I guess WAT might be able to relate to that example. H said that would bother him, but he thinks he'd get over it faster than I am. If my family knew any of this, OMG. MY brother sent OW a really nice thank you note for her participation in my dad's funeral. Do you believe it? H actually told me at the time that she got this really nice letter. WOW, he talked about her all the time to me.

Concerning H's guilt, his shrink told him he has "murderous guilt." He is beating himself up about this A. I thought he was over taking it personally when I talk about OW. He told me he understands my feelings towards her, but he feels like I am talking about him when I talk about her. Which leads me to what you said about a dramatic occurance that turns the WS against the OP. I realize that at some point I want him to dislike her for what she did to me and our boys, especially me. OK, I'll be honest here, I want him to actually dislike her. At times I feel like he gets how she manipulated and openly pursued him. However, he still isn't able to even apologize for telling me I wasn't being fair to her, in front of her, the day I had my "little chat" with her. That wall's looking pretty darn big right now!

Why do we stay? It seems like a pretty unnatural thing to do. When I asked Steve that question he told me because it's better to be married to the father of your kids. OK! Who's it better for? I guess the kids.

I think I'm confused by this whole MB experience. I'm sure H wouldn't be living in this house if I hadn't plan A'd him to death. I'm sure it took both he and OW by surprise. Me too! I get how knowing and meeting each other's need gets the M hopefully back on track. What I don't get is how does it help you recover and heal from the pain? In the book "Not Just Friends" the author says we BSs have been through a major trauma, like a rape or a natural disaster. She says we heal through the methods they use to help those folks heal. Talking about the trauma for one. The problem for me is when more is revealed I do get triggered into the pain.

I'm rambling again. I'm one confused woman! Well, if you have any more words of wisdom I will try very hard not to cry again, OK? Thanks for being there from day 1. SD, you are an inspiration to me. I've told you before, the MB guru. Your W is fortunate and I'm sure she knows and appreciates all you do for her. CV

Hi CV,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H is in IC, which is good, but it doesn't help us to heal, especially me. Is there a good path to take to heal from this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it doesnt seem like much now, but you two ARE in recovery and you ARE healing. It's soooo early for you two. I think every word you posted was perfectly normal for a BS at this point.

Have you read any of SDFR's post. I believe his W started the A near their anniversary, spent holidays including their childrens bdays with OM. So many WS's just went on mental holiday... no notice to special or important events. I've heard it too many time to place any more signifigance to it than complete Head up the Ars* FOG.

IC CAN help you deal with YOU while you deal with the A. But if you didnt think you were getting anything from it, maybe a new one?

So you are just a few week into NC, and the A started about this time, last year. I see totally why you are so upset.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Concerning H's guilt, his shrink told him he has "murderous guilt." He is beating himself up about this A. I thought he was over taking it personally when I talk about OW. He told me he understands my feelings towards her, but he feels like I am talking about him when I talk about her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like your H really understands the immensity of this A. And, maybe, a little foggy, regarding "he still isn't able to even apologize for telling me I wasn't being fair to her, in front of her, the day I had my "little chat" with her."

You ARE on THIS side of a giant wall. I know how it seems. Totally overwhelming. Make a deal with yourself to give this some time... see what progress is made in the next 6 months. I can tell you, recovery is possible... I have seen it here many times, and my marriage is better than I could have hoped for, now.

Try to stay calm. You are in this marriage because you saw something worth fighting for. Recovery is very hard but it sounds like you guys are on the right track. It's just so early for you. Please try to get out and see friends, and give 'recovery' a break from time to time. Please take extra care of yourself - Dru

CV..I am not great about answering posts as I currently feel a tremendous time crunch and I can sometimes(like now) be a bit long winded. I have also found that spending too much time on these boards gets me wired, angry, and depressed and I lose track of the plan A that I am trying very desperately to concentrate on right now. I am currently a BS who was a WH 12 years ago. You asked for similar info on another thread. I will try to keep up a bit better and see if I can help answer some of your questions and possibly ease a bit of your frustrations.

First a question for you...If I remember/read it right, I think I saw you say on another thread that you were a counselor by profession. Could I ask what field?

Second..I will start by saying that while an A is going on your logic is shut off completely. I have read a lot of terms and descriptions here on MB such as "FOG", analogies to drug or alcohol intoxication(even one credible theory that there are chemical changes in the brain that make it truly an addiction) and many other stories that try to describe what is going on with the WS. Unless you have been through it, it is really hard to understand much less get move past/through it.

The bottom line is this; during an affair you were not what your WS was thinking about PERIOD. Your WS was not being logical, loving, or even caring. The WS has other things on their mind that push everything else to the background.

Now for the hardest part for you. Can you accept the fact that none of the past actions were directed at you? Can you accept the fact that even if he is not showing it on the outside as much as you would like...your WH knows that he has hurt you very badly? Can you move ahead on the assumption that if your marriage is going to work out that your WH will consider you in all future actions and that they will be about you from now on? We cannot undo the past no matter how much we would love to. All we(both BS and WS) have control over is our current and future actions. Hopefully we can view our own and spouses past mistakes as learning experiences.

For me, I move ahead daily by focusing on what's next. Too many of my past actions and experiences really suck! If I focused there it would destroy me and I know it. Much of my current life/experiences really suck as well. The only way that I can cope right now is by reminding myself that what my WW is doing right now with OM really doesn't have as much to do with me as it does with where her head is at right now. Will we make it out and through this time? I don't have a clue. But I do know that a big part of why we are her right now is because we never did a good recovery after I was the WS.

When you are told that you need to open up and clean out the wound...I have to agree with that. You have to open all of the wounds not just the big A scab! None of it will be comfortable. Much of it will be downright excruciating. It takes alot of strength to work through it but it also takes being in the right mind set.

My suggestion is to tell yourself that the affair itself was not about you at all. Going through the details of the A period can help you get a better understanding of your WS's current and future needs. It will also serve to help your WS see that his fears and guilt toward you can be overcome. He needs to see that you can forgive his serious case of the dumb!!$. We all make mistakes. Forgiveness can be tough. I keep asking myself...what are the alternatives to forgiveness?

If I can give less rambling, more specific answers to your questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

CV55,

a bump up for input from others who are in recovery

Hang in there! post A is a H*#* of a roller coaster ride.

Recovering H, you and I must have been writing at the same time yesterday. As much as I can't stand OW, I am one of those people that needs to be truthful. So I don't want to demonize her totally and let H off the hook. However, I do know she was being seductive at work before the EA occurred. H was very uncomfortable and told her, which Steve said encouraged her. I do know she was the one who wrote that letter and read it oud loud to H. His huge mistake was allowing that. I do know he tried to end it before it became physical, and she cried and begged for him not to leave her. Told him she respected him, but would be there when he wanted to have sex. I do know he felt guilt, and she never did. So I guess she seems to be a bit like a predator to me.

Isn't it strange looking back at those funerals. Before I knew about OW I just thought my dad had this great send off. Now, just like you picture that woman at the back of the church, I just see her standing by the hearse, and picturing her pushing his casket. I told her how that is the worst memory I have about her. I said that one day her parents will die. Maybe then she will remember and understand how I must have felt when she was involved in my dad's funeral. I can only hope!

Drucilla, my therapist was good. Frankly I've just worked on so much of my crap over the years. My head has been clear throughout this nightmare. Mostly we were discussing H and how screwed up he was, and shrink's view that the A would never last. I realized that talking to all of you was just as good, especially when I got my pain more in control.

Truthfully, I'm not convinced I'm on the recovery side of the wall yet. But I truly appreciate your encouragement.

Burtonzoo, thanks for your thoughtful reply. For some reason I didn't get many replies to that one post I sent. I appreciate your taking the time to answer some of my questions.

I really shouldn't call myself a counselor yet, because technically I'm not. In August I graduated with my MA in counseling. I have kept counseling my clients at the internship site I was at. I need to pass a licensure exam before I will be a professional counselor. My dad's death in August, H's emotioanl D of me, and then finding out about the A threw me so much emotionally I wasn't able to study for the exam. It's very difficult. I've had trouble just paying bills. I hope I can get going soon, and take it this summer.

Concerning what you said about H wasn't thinking about me during the A. Actually that is probably the worst thing anyone could do to me. As a kid I dealt with neglect, which feels like indifference. So indifference is a tough one for me. And I still have trouble with H being so incredibly stupid he would have been such an A## during my dad's dying and death. OK, so keep screwing the "B", but does she have to come to our home? Understanding THAT will take some work. I hope some FWS will respond to that because it is a sticky point for me. I don't dwell on it daily, but when it does hit me, it hits hard.

Luckily I don't blame myself for the A. It was about H's poor mental state, the horny OW, and the ease they had in having the A. Plus, as I've said, H totally not knowing or protecting his weaknesses. On my part, I just had a really hard time balancing my role as the daughter of a dying dad, the mom of boys having difficulty in school I think because of losses, and trying to be there for H. All while working my butt off to try and finish my internship. I know I did the best I could do at the time.

In your opinion how did you and your W not do what was necessary to recovery? It would be very helpful to know. Thanks for offering any future help to me. Understanding the mind of a WS is so helpful. I hope your W gets her SH** together and comes out of the fog. I know what you mean about taking a break from MB every now and then. Sometimes the pain is overwhelming.

Thanks end it? for bumping my thread up. That was nice of you.

One slightly black humorous note. I had the following fantasy today. H and I made a kinky internet purchase last night. Only to find out after placing the order that they lost their secure site status. So by now someone has probably made numerous purchases with my credit card, not to mention the porno e-mails I'll probably be getting. Anyway, my fantasy! I'm going to be the best me, the hottest FBS, get in the greatest shape, totally allow H to see how totally great I am, THEN I'LL DUMP HIM!!! OK, don't anyone 2x4 me. For some reason that fantasy just makes me feel so good. It goes with Tinman's PLAN ME! Thanks all! Keep any more comments coming. CV

CV,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's been 7 weeks since H has had NC with OW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Relax, this is normal. My husband's been home since 2/19 and through this time I have my moments. Most days I feel great & happy that he's here. There are other times when I feel totally overwhelmed, scared, angry, you name it. And this is after 3 months. 7 weeks isn't that long so this is all very new for both of you. Don't beat yourself up. You know, my sister said to me one time, Youre always hardest on yourself. Because you want this pain to go away so badly & you want to do the right thing, in my case, doing it God's way, you tend to get yourself all upset when you start acting "human". You don't want to get upset, you want to be happy again, you want all the pain to just go away. Well, it's not going to happen. You have to let yourself feel the pain, and when you do, you cry out to God to comfort you, to hold you, to ease it. And with a lot of scripture & praying, He heals me when I feel the worst.

I remember not that long ago, that my H & I got in this HUGE argument one night because I was feeling very insecure. When he doesn't call when he says he's going to or he's gone longer than he says he will be, I think to myself, What if he's with her? What if he's calling her instead of me? What is he hiding from me now? All kinds of thoughts. My mind goes wild. When I find out later that the reason he didn't call was because he just woke up & didn't have time before he rushed out the door to work or that he was taking longer at the store because he bought me something or stopped to see his brother, it makes me feel horrible inside. And then I feel justified because I have a "right" to question. Trust takes time, it needs to be earned. And what I had to realize is that I will never be able to fully trust him, he will never be able to fully trust me. The only one we can ever fully trust to not hurt us, to love us unconditionally, is God. Human beings are full of flaws, full of weaknesses, capable of hurting all those around them without even realizing they're doing it. And sometimes, they hurt us so badly, they know it, yet they feel so caught in a hole that they don't know how to dig themselves out of it without adding more pain or they don't want to face what they've done because then they'll have those feelings of guilt. And face it, most people want to feel "justified" in hurting other people. They want to think, Yeah, I hurt them, but what about this that they did to me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The more I know about OW and how she pursued H, the more I hate her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you can find a way to deal with this, to get rid of this because it will make you bitter & will tear you apart. It helped me a lot because fortunately, I never met her, I never spoke with her. I knew exactly where she lived & where she worked, and when we were supposed to meet, she backed out at the last minute. You having contact with her & her actions of actively pursuing him, does not help you any faster, but all I know is that by a lot of prayer I will be able to forgive her some day. All I can tell you on this is to pray daily for the ability to forgive. And in time, how long, I don't know, you won't have these bitter feelings anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told me he understands my feelings towards her, but he feels like I am talking about him when I talk about her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is because, in a way, you are. Think about it. He chose to have an A with her, he chose a person with a totally bad character. His choices caused you to have so much pain. He feels very guilty & does not know how to express it. Telling you he's sorry, in his mind, isn't going to take the pain away, it won't change his actions, it won't erase the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I'm confused by this whole MB experience. I'm sure H wouldn't be living in this house if I hadn't plan A'd him to death. I'm sure it took both he and OW by surprise. Me too! I get how knowing and meeting each other's need gets the M hopefully back on track. What I don't get is how does it help you recover and heal from the pain? In the book "Not Just Friends" the author says we BSs have been through a major trauma, like a rape or a natural disaster. She says we heal through the methods they use to help those folks heal. Talking about the trauma for one. The problem for me is when more is revealed I do get triggered into the pain.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MB doesn't help with the pain. Prayer & time does. That's the only thing I can say to that. MB helps get you started to recovery of your M. It's up to you two to keep it going.

What we're trying to focus on now is the here & now. We take it day by day. When I have those feelings of insecurity & anger, I pray. When I'm feeling my all-time lowest, I pray. And most of all, I don't try to "understand" how my H or OW could do these things to someone else because I never will. I can only focus on my own behavior & my relationship with God. As long as you keep God as the head of your M, He will guide you on what steps to take. It's just all going to take time. Lots of it. And praying for patience is a very big step because you're going to need it.

I pray all works out for you.

CV,

This has absolutely nothing to do with this at all, but I need help over at SYMC. When I try to reply I get a message saying pop-up window blocked, is there a way to shut that off so I can reply? I just happened to see you post over there so I thought maybe you knew. I have Internet Explorer and not sure how to do it. Thanks and I hope you are getting better. You are strong by the way, I am the weak one, can't even stay in a plan B.

HINY

Standing Together, it's too late for me to respond to your reply, but I will try to tomorrow. It touched me.

I felt pretty good today. H really screwed his back up. He's walking around like an old man, in a lot of pain. When his back is screwed up he is a real crab. I've been fine dealing with his crabbiness today. Actually joked about it. I couldn't help but wonder if the OW ever saw this side of him. I do regret that if we make it the needy, emotional OW that she is will never experience the pleasure of the crabby H.

Tonight H, the boys, and I watched a good movie. I don't want to give anything away so I won't say the name. There was one small part in the movie where the main character, who is married, is with a woman who wants to kiss him. It's obvious there are feelings there. The MM pulls away and says, "I'm married and I love my W." And he leaves! It was such a small part in the movie and yet I could feel my eyes slightly tear. I wondered if my H even thought about it. I made myself not look at him. How many of us just wish that was the choice our Ss had made? Just one simple choice to keep their wedding vows.

NY, sorry, I have no idea what your talking about. I'll go to SYMC and check it out. CV

Hey CV. I know exactly what you mean about movies. When I see a movie that has any hint of adultery in it now, I cringe & I can feel myself getting all welled up inside. I know it's going to take time until that goes away so basically I just grit my teeth and bear through it. I guess time will tell when I'll be able to watch something like that & not trigger some kind of painful memory. Hopefully.

God bless!

One thing that helped me to understand is a word my H used to describe why OW was pursuing him (he told me this during the A, blaming her for her pursuit and not admitting to his response). The word was "compartmentalize."

Your H did not intend to hurt you by having OW at the funeral. You didn't know of the relationship, so how could you be hurt that she was there?

On the day after major surgery, my H called me up and said, "Do you want me to visit?" I was hurt that he asked, but then he had to deal with caring for four children, two of whom were pre-schoolers in emergency childcare provided by the company, one of whom was weaned abruptly the day before. I hesitated to answer but said, "No, no, if you're too busy, don't come." I spent the rest of the morning calling friends to arrange for dinners and pleading with my SIL to stop over on the weekend with a meal because Tom was so overwhelmed.

What did he do for lunch? Lunch with Sophia.

Later, when he told me of the lunch, he said that it was my responsibility to have told him I wanted him to visit. He knew I'd be hurt that he didn't visit, but at least I wasn't hurt that he was having lunch with Sophia.

Compartmentalize.

I hope this helps.
Cherished

Cherished, I wish your explanation did help, but it doesn't. I REALLY appreciate you trying to help me understand my H's screwed up mind back then. His actions are just too insensitive for me to understand. I just can't grasp it yet. I think that's why I keep trying to get some understanding from the FWSs on this site. H doesn't understand and just feels guilt ridden when I try to question him about it all.

Tonight we were at my brother's house because my nephew graduated with his MB degree. It is the most bizarre thing being with my family. I can barely explain it. My niece who I am extremely close to was in town. She and I have had many conversations about adultery and she knows how I feel about it, and she feels the same. She loves H and he loves her. If she knew what he did to me for months, if any of them knew. If they remembered OW's part in the funeral on top of it. What am I trying to say? I could tell H had a good time with my family tonight. Up until today his guilt has made it hard for him to be around them. Tonight it was like it used to be. But I have this knowledge that they don't know. If they knew it would greatly alter their relationships with H. They would be shocked, hurt, and would have to forgive him. So I've chosen not to tell them. I would have if he didn't dump OW. Yet I am left with this secret. This major life altering event that the closest people to me know nothing about. They are laughing and joking with H, but they don't know that H hurt me to the core of my being. It's just so strange!

I don't understand it, so how could they understand it. I'm babbling again. Maybe I'll be more coherent tomorrow. CV

HI CV,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt pretty good today. H really screwed his back up. He's walking around like an old man, in a lot of pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it's just a Monday funny, but did you notice how funny that statement was? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Concerning what you said about H wasn't thinking about me during the A. Actually that is probably the worst thing anyone could do to me.... His actions are just too insensitive for me to understand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The one thing you see here at MB, over and over, is how they totally blocked all feelings for the BS during the affair. For most, it's the only way they can have the A... blocked, pushed out of their little feeble, selfish, ignornant, foggy minds. It's horrible, and I've wondered exactly what you are wondering (how am I 'blockable'?), but it's the same over and over...

I bet you can also see how this situation was made worse by your childhood insecurities... being neglected and ignored. It's good to recognize 'normal' worries and fears vs the ones made worse by earlier personal traumas. Same happened to me... H really hit some hotspots with his addiction... hit me to the core. If you recognize this, you can start to sort out things that YOU alone need to deal this (fears of neglect or abandonment) vs Marriage issues that the two should address. I'm rambling, but do you see the point I'm trying to make?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, my fantasy! I'm going to be the best me, the hottest FBS, get in the greatest shape, totally allow H to see how totally great I am, THEN I'LL DUMP HIM!!! OK, don't anyone 2x4 me. For some reason that fantasy just makes me feel so good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've heard that one before, too... You are in good company <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But hopefully, if it's what you want, by the time you are a hot tamale you've built up some good love towards your H... One thing that kept me going throughout this recovery was reminding myself that I was the one we decided to try to recover this marriage. If I didnt think it was worth saving, I could leave... it was my decision to work this out. I can tell you I am glad I did. Others have lived to see the otherside, too... You must have seen something worth saving, right?

I hope you are doing better this week. Please remember: it's early on, there will be ups and downs, and keep the long term goal in mind. Think Big Picture... where do you want to be in five years... Please take care - Dru

<small>[ May 17, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

Standing Together, I just wanted to comment on what you said about trust. That is one of the most hurtful elements of these As. I was lying in bed last night and the following thoughts hit me. H and I have regained are ability to enjoy each other's company, we are able to laugh together, and we've regained our lover status. I have always been his best friend, although maybe he thought oW was during the A. It hit me that he is not my friend yet. We trust our friends. It was just a strange realization that the friendship for me can't really be back until the trust is regained.

I had another thought concerning what I wrote about my family last night. They are still looking at H with innocent eyes. I can't do that anymore. I know I'm not unique in my feelings, it's just all so twighlight zonish.

Drucilla, I didn't realize I was sounding so happy about H's bad back. Oh well, I guess I'm not beyond some good, clean vindictiveness. I just loved it when that copper tube went up his "you know what" to test for an STD. Now I'm strongly suggesting that the man get a vasectomy. HMMMMM, are we seeing a theme here?

I'm very aware of how his behavior triggered earlier wounds. It was really before he told me and had withdrawn from me. I also knew it was his dysfunctional behavior and I didn't have to be the kid anymore, which is why I finally was going to just leave him. On some level he knew it, which is why I think he began the truthtelling.

I know he was fogged out, but still, do you have to be a totally ignorant jerk on top of your already jerky self? OW asked him if she could come to our house inbetween visiting hours, and he told her to come. I think I actually was sitting at the table with her, probably hugged her, ans thanked her for coming. Sorry, I still don't get it. I really need more recovered WSs to try and explain this to me. I'm getting the feeling none of you guys want to tackle this subject either.

I am doing better this week. I had my 1st dream about OW last night. H and I were at a bar and were going to play pinball together. When we 1st met we used to drink shots of Wild Turkey and play pinball. Suddenly in the dream OW is there, ready to play pinball with us. I don't think H felt comfortable telling her to go, but I said I wasn't going to play with her. I think she may have ended up staying.

It hit me after remembering that dream the similarity in how H and I started out, and how he and OW began going to this bar she used to work at and would play bowling. It started out very innocently, pre-EA. I even knew about those happy hours after work. Now I know how dangerous that outside socializing is. He was having fun with her, like he and I did in our stage one. While I was a big drag dealing with all the stressors in my life. I wish I could have had that fun.

Thanks again! Still will welcome any insight on my question of how does the WS treat his/her spouse so crappily during the A? CV

I'm so sorry for everything you've been through CV. You've layed it out in such detail that I'm not really sure how to respond. Seeing your pain brings back that sense of guilt and confusion I felt when I realized what I'd done. I didn't understand why I did what I did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Still will welcome any insight on my question of how does the WS treat his/her spouse so crappily during the A? CV </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From the sound of it, you're most upset with the things he did that you didn't know about at the time. You weren't aware you were being treated crappy at the time it was happening.

We're not thinking about the ramifications of our actions. It's part of the insanity. Your H wasn't thinking that he would do these things to treat you crappy...it wasn't premeditated that way.
OW and I had sex in my bed. I didn't think twice that it was the same bed I'd get into my wife that night. I suppose once the threshold is crossed, we figure there's no sense in drawing lines anymore. I suppose my thinking was I'd already violated the most sacred trust, so what difference did a bedroom make?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One more thing that maybe is a problem. I dropped out of IC about a month ago because frankly my problem is the A. I was just talking about the same stuff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd encourage you NOT to stop your IC. You know that YOU are still in an unhealthy place. The IC might seem fruitless right now, but you ARE making progress. It might take a few sessions to get there. Tell your IC you feel like you're at an impasse. He/She can help you break through that.

It sounds like your H is trying. Your H abandoned you when you needed him most. The guilt has to be killing him. Understand that he did nothing worse than any other WS would've done in their affair. Our thinking is really fubar.

I'd encourage you to understand that you need to work through this more for your own healing than to accept him back. If you end you marriage in your current state, that pain and anger will stay with you forever. No closure, no relief.

Stay the course. You can do it.

Low

Low, thanks for trying to help me understand. I laughed when I saw your name. Not at you, but because you are one of the only FWSs who seem to be answering my post. I am wondering if I am as annoying to all of you as I can be to my H. One of the Retrouvaille exercises was to determine a certain personality profile we have. I came out as the "Logical Thinker." Maybe that is where this need to understand all this is coming from. It's also one of the characteristics that lead me to being a counselor.

Concerning IC, I might go in occasionally for a follow-up. This is the thing. Turn back the clock 2 yrs. ago and I really was a happy person. Then my dad's health began to really start taking a turn for the worse, but he was stubbornly living alone. I still maintained a pretty postitive outlook on life. Then the deaths, more sickness and death, and my happy state was deteriorating. Enter OW and the A, well now there is a whole pile of SH**! I think a lot of my unhappiness is circumstantial, which is different from internal issues. At some point I think I need to work out this A pain through MC. Until H and I got on more solid ground it just wasn't worth it. It was going to MC and listening to H's confusion about what he wanted. Then finding out he was in phone contact with OW. It really was a waste of time. Hopefully we're getting to the point that we can resume MC soon.

Actually Low, I was aware that I was being treated very badly during the A. There was such a disconnect between H and I which hurt me more than my dad's declining health. As I've said here before, I just watched him dismantle our M, and couldn't reach him. He didn't want to be reached. I keep a journal, and I wrote last summer when my dad was in the hospital how maybe I should D H. He was so not there for me.

You are correct that I am very upset at the things I didn't know at the time that I know now. Example, when I remembered a party my BIL had a week after my dad's funeral in which OW was invited. When I remembered that day sitting at a table with her and H I can't believe it. My SIL, who suspected an A, told me when she saw OW at the party she felt better because she didn't think she would be there if they were having an A. I'm still having so much trouble with this. Where does that boldness come from? No offense intended to you, but if you had any love for your W, or even friendship, how do you sleep with OW in your bed? And how does the OW feel OK about that? I know you said that maybe you just cross this line that justifies all the bad behavior.

I feel like I should apologize for sounding judgemental. I really just want to get it. I'm getting how these As happen. Unfortunately I'm understanding how it happened to H. What I'm not understanding is his total lack of respect for me in the situations I've described. I'm going in circles aren't I?

Well thanks for trying to penetrate this hard head of mine. CV ps., What is "fubar" thinking?

What is "fubar" thinking?

I believe it is

Fouled (but the other F word)
Up
Beyond
All
Repair

....

Orbit said something very true. In the WS fog-brain this thinking error seems true: "Well, I've crossed that line of infilelity, so there is nothing else to lose."

And, according to some books I've read on infidelity, this is also one of the dangerous thinking errors that make a person (WS or BS) at risk for future affairs. "After all, the sanctity of the M is already screwed.... might as well enjoy myself."

So, being a person with a logical mind... this may never make sense to you because it is fog-logic based on thinking errors.

I too am a logical thinker. Medical field. But also an intuitive thinker.

And I found no logic what-so-ever in my H's behavior during his A.

I butted my head against that wall trying to make sense of it all...

Then I surrendered... and decided to try and understand it all from a spiritual perspective... and that's the only way I found out of my boxed in logic non-acceptance.

Best to you.

Pep