Thanks Pep! According to the Meyers/Briggs personality type I am an intuitive feeling type, so like you I have both the logical/intuitive thing happening.

In the beginning of the truthtelling about the A I really had a spititual perspective about the whole thing. As time has gone by I have lost some of that. Maybe as I and our M has seemed to get more stable, I am allowing myself to see what has occurred. And boy does it suck! In certain ways H and I are like it never happened. Then we talk about the A, a new detail is revealed, and I can't believe it.

Thanks for yout insight, and for explaining fubar. A really great word. CV

Actually fubar is

F fouled (yes the other F word)
U up
B beyond
A all
R recognition

Even though I do like PEP's better. LOL

Yes it is and it's not just used in the Army all military use this term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In the beginning of the truthtelling about the A I really had a spititual perspective about the whole thing. As time has gone by I have lost some of that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this explains the anger, the resentment, the panic, you name it! This makes total sense. As long as you take your focus off God and onto your circumstance you will feel like CRAP!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going in circles aren't I? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm afraid you are. You are NEVER going to understand why your H did what he did. Why he acted the way he acted - same as I'll NEVER understand mine. We weren't at that same place of mind they were. We were thinking of the things going on around us at the time and place we were in - they were thinking of their own feelings at the time and place they were in in their own minds. We will never be able to truly comprehend what the other person was going through at that particular time. I can't explain why people act the way they do - if you try to understand it, you will drive yourself CRAZY! This is really hindering your progress and I really do feel that you need to refocus your energies on to God, even if your H doesn't, and you will start to feel better, more relaxed. Less confused.

You said something very interesting. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Until H and I got on more solid ground it just wasn't worth it. It was going to MC and listening to H's confusion about what he wanted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you feel it wasn't worth it? Any time someone talks about how they feel, it is very worth it. When my H & I started MC, we were separated. He went because my therapist (who was doing IC with me at first) had asked to meet H so he knew better how to help me deal w/the pain & start healing. My H was also confused the first session & quite a few after that. He was "on the fence". And one thing my therapist told me was that if you push a person on the fence too far in one direction, they will go the opposite direction and fall off the fence (obviously). The bad thing about this is that the decision will be the opposite of what you would like it to be. So I had to learn not to push him, to let him be on that fence as long as he needed to be. I prayed continually for H mind to become clear & not so "foggy" so he could clearly see what he was to do. And what happened? God led him back home!

My H is also an impulsive person. He has never been the type to think before he acts whereas I am. Is your H like this? If so, it could explain how he wasn't "thinking" about your feelings at all at the time of the funeral but instead was thinking of his own pain of losing your father. Let me ask you a question? You say that your H was close to your father too if I remember correctly. How did you support him through this time? Forget the fact that the OW was in the picture & you didn't know it. What did you do to support him through this time? Please don't think I am attacking you because that is not my intention; however, I'm hearing a lot of How could he....& it really starts to sound, after a while, like judgemental behavior. Sorry, JMHO.

I know this got long-winded & probably didn't come out the way I wanted it to. I'm trying to write this at work & now that they've changed the editing rules, I can't go back & change it. Anyway, hope I made sense somehow. I'm having a little struggle myself today. Take care, CV.

Yvette

In one of his books, Harley calls an affair "thoughtless". I remember reading that a few years ago and thinking that that description is a bit tame. Now I see the truth of what he was saying.

Your H didn't mean to hurt you. Part of the reason why he kept it secret was so he wouldn't hurt you. Since it was secret, why did it matter that OW was at the funeral?

FOG...

My H once said to me that "you were not relevant to my thoughts."

Cherished

Standing Together, I just wanted to be clear that the majority of the time I'm not LBing H. Yes, I'll admit when I do LB him, he gets it full force. Most of the time he's gotten a lot of love from me. He thanked me early this morning for being so nice to him. At times the anger and resentment does come to the surface, which is why my original post began. That is when I have to get it out here. H really doesn't know this stuff that is going through my mind. Also, I'm not experiencing panic.

Concerning having a spiritual perspective on this A, I have realized from day one it will be the only way we can get through this. I think in the beginning, post d-day, us BSs are so into Plan Aing the fogged out WSs we put what the A did to us on hold. For me, maybe as our M is getting more stable, what H did sometimes just whacks me over the head. I'm not dwelling on it, it's just always there.

I could not tolerate the fence sitting in MC. God Bless You that you were able to. For me, I didn't want to be in MC until I knew H was committed to the process. We did start talking to Steve Harley to help H with the withdrawal, and help me not dump H during his withdrawal. I told H today I want to talk to SH again and eventually get back to the MC. I think because we are doing so much better H could very easily just do his IC and hope we can forget about this whole mess. I've made it clear that ain't gonna happen for me.

H is not impulsive at all. He allowed himself to get sucked into this A. As far as me supporting H during my dad's death, let me explain. My dad was living alone and seriously ill last year. We all knew it. He was dealing with his declining health through denial and avoidance. It was very complicated and very scary. I was the main caretaker and the situation was really taking its toll on me. H greatly resented my dad, but chose not to share those feelings with me. He assumed I didn't love him and felt abandoned by me. Once he let the OW meet his needs he had totally shut the door on me. He withdrew from my dad and didn't even want to be around him. When my dad ended up in the hospital for 2 weeks, which is where he died, H didn't see him half as much as myself, my brother, and SIL. He really didn't act like he even cared. He##, he was screwing OW at the time, while I was at the hospital constantly. Sorry, but this was my dad, and I needed the support. If H would have shown he was sad we could have comforted each other. It's what I would have wanted. He was too busy having fun being IN-LOVE. I also had 2 boys to think about that were crazy about their grandfather, and had experienced 2 significant deaths in less than a year's time, prior to dad's death. At some point H will have to acknowledge his grief over my dad. He just avoided it at the time. And frankly, because of my M problems, I don't think I fully felt the grief. I am dreading the year anniversary this August.

Cherished, thoughtless is an understatement. I felt totally invisible to H all last year. Like I didn't even exist. My boys weren't that visible to him either. I had to be the main one there for them. Yeh, I guess you can call A behavior thoughtless. All in the name of the GREAT LOVE between the WS and the OP. CV

Thought I'd post an update on my question of the week, which is "How or maybe why does the WS treat their W/H like crap during an A?" I guess I should clarify. Having an A is treating your S like crap. I'm talking about those things that are above and beyond the normal crap of an A. Those extra little touches of bad choices that make the A twice as bad.

This all started yesterday when I was at H's business. It was his day off, but he needed me to look in his infamous safe for something. As some of you know I found OW's love letters in that safe. H told me he has nothing to hide so he didn't mind me going through the safe. Oh, he also had me look at OW's file because he needed some info. It was very funny because he had her job evals in there during the A. How does a boss rate his employee poorly when he is screwing her. I'm telling you all she had EXCELLANT marks. I was surpised there wasn't a chategory for good screwing and BJs. Sorry, sorry, sorry. It's my very sick humor.

OK, back to the safe. What do I find in there? H's empty bottle of viagra that he apparently was using with OW. What's with the viagra? It seems that some of the older male WSs are a bit afraid of performing with the younger babes out there. So later last night I told H about my find, and the date on the bottle. Which if he was screwing by that date it was earlier than he had told me. He claims he didn't use them at that time, but he obviously was getting ready. Somehow I told him I have been trying to pick the FWSs brains on this site to understand the mind of a WS. Unfortunately told him I haven't gotten many replies. So H said, "Well why not just ask me? I'm a recovering WS." So I proceeded with all of my why and how questions that have been bothering me. Of course everything I've stated on this thread. H's response, "I don't know why I did what I did." So I kept on asking why. Finally H flung his Retrouvaille notebook on the floor and threw his empty bottle of viagra across the room. Basically said with a very angry, red face, "If none of the FWSs on the MB site can answer you neither can I. We just do uncaring things while in the A. There is no good reason." He felt very LBed by me. Said we were doing so well until I did this. I said, "Do I have to be perfect all the time?" Well, we got through it all. But I was waking up at night thinking about viagra and livitra. H actually said to me I should feel good because he had to use it with OW. I do get some pleasure in that because he hasn't needed it with me.

The moral of this story, I don't think I'm ever going to get my question answered sufficiently. If none of you can answer it, and H can't answer it, well I think I'm stuck with no answer. I guess I have to just accept that my darling H was one big, unconscious A$$HO&& during the entire A.
Of course if any of you still feel like you can enlighten me I hope you will jump in here. Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks! CV

CV,

I don't know the answer. I'm like you, struggling with recovery (5 months), wondering if its worth it, and trying to let go of my anger, especially over the hurtful things that went "above and beyond." (In my case the highlight was when my H left the hospital right after our daughter's birth to spend the day - and night - with the OW). I've struggled with the same question and pretty much got the same response as you when I asked my FWH about it.
Ultimately, what finally helped me a little was realizing that even if I got a full and complete explanation, nothing he could possibly say would make me feel any better about that day (and a few other terrible episodes). I really tried hard to think of a response he could give me that would satisfy me, and I couldn't even imagine one. So it doesn't matter why - it won't change the fact that for the rest of my life I'll be sad when I think of the day my D was born. I just have to stop thinking about that day, and think instead about yesterday, a day we all spent playing together, or tomorrow, which hopefully will be even better. Easier said than done, but I don't know that there's an alternative.

Thanks pearl! When I asked Steve Harley this question about a month ago he told me how many times he's heard the WS leaves their W to be with OW while or after their child is being born. Sorry you are one of those statistics. I just had a thought, which is maybe what is bothering me. The thought is, "Is nothing sacred?" What could be more sacred than the birth of your child, or the death of a loved one? It's just one more aspect of H's A that I can't wrap my mind around. How can ALL good judgement and decency, from a person who has always been decent, suddenly go down the drain? It is simply baffling to me. If I was going on to get my PHD,which I have NO desire to do, I would write a thesis on this subject. If it wasn't happening to me I'd find the whole thing fascinating.

Like you, I'm not sure what I want from H, or what he could do to make it up to me? SD, if you are lurking somewhere in the shadows, I kind of like your "extracting a pound of flesh from the WS." Maybe I could handle some daily groveling. How about, "CV, I was such a [censored]%%%% to almost dump you for the little twitty OW. She doesn't compare to you as far as class, intelligence, cuteness, humor, a loyal friend, and a great lover. CV, I was a total fool, I love you, and I will make it up to you for the rest of my dying days." OK, don't anyone vomit, it's my little fantasy for tonight.

I did get some nice news yesterday. OW got a job and it isn't even close to the career she could have had working for H. Too bad she had to be greedy and wanted the career and wanted to marry the boss.

Pearl, only time will tell where we will end up. I guess for both you and your H, and H and I, it's too soon to tell if we'll be one of the "We're happier than we were before the A" couples. CV

CV55

I'm not sure I'm able to get my arms wholly around this topic. I do think if anyone does HAVE THE ANSWER to all of these things going on inside the head of a BS, he'd put Dr. Harley out of business!!! No disrespect intended!!!

Heres some thoughts....

* For all of the sameness, likeness and similarity in what we read here about affairs, I think that they are all different, too, like all the different faces in the world. Each different face is connected to a different personality, and each personality reacts just a little bit differently than the next person.

* Somehow we "connected" with our spouses. That first meeting. The first date. Hanging out. Something happened. We were first maybe intrigued, maybe curious, maybe drawn, maybe even didn't like the person we end up married to. All those courtship moments were little different than the start of an affair. Were we always honest with the person we were seeing? Did one think they were an exclusive "item" while the other danced with devils behind the others back? When we "broke a date", was the reason given the truth? Can we remember through the "fog" just how honest and open we were with this interesting new person? What was our relationship status with others, during that time? Did we let someone down, perhaps, not too gently? I honestly cannot remember. I met my soon to be wife, and was as in the fog as any WS we've seen described here.

* Speaking from my own experience, I know my wife was not happy with most of our marriage. I was "ok" with most of it, but knew somewhere along the line, the passion was lost, we led individual lives a good share of the time, and when together, we had "good times", but without that connection. We both "took a stand" every so often about our own concerns about our marriage, but we never did anything about it. We never said, maybe we are broken, and need some help. But instead, she went garage sale shopping, I went golfing, she went to church, I went fishing, she went to parent teacher meetings and I worked late, and so on and so on. Neither of us realized just how broken the marriage was. We looked happy to our parents, our friends, our neighbors, etc. But we were just going through the motions of day to day existance, most of the time.

* Then one day, out of the blue, she runs into the wrong person at the wrong place and time, and click, they connected. Our marriage was not strong enough to make her stick to her boundries. This is a woman who was a church deacon for 5 years! Whatever it was 30 years ago that put her in my presence, so that we had the opportunity to connect, had taken place again for her, but this time she knew it was wrong, but she couldn't for some reason, deny the "opportunity" to feel that "spark" of falling in love again. She told me that, flat out. The spark was gone between us, and she wanted that feeling again.

* She cannot explain how she could set our marriage aside to be in the A. She said it "just happened". And once the line is crossed and the fog sets in, well, we all know what that's like!!!

* So we go through the hell of DDay, anger, pain, utterly as low as human beings can feel, speaking for myself, of course. We struggle, we grasp, we search the web, we find MarriageBuilders, which looks, maybe, like the only hope in this darkness and dispair which has become our life.

* Then we (we couples who have had their lives disrupted by an A) come to "terms", by some bizarre path of NC, Plan A, Plan B, seperation, suicide attempts, MC, some of us get to this or that point of "recovery". Sadly, many don't get to this point as "easily" as you and I have. And I don't mean that lightly. I cannot believe how much more others have had to suffer in this process than I have??? Anyway, we get to recovery, and then what?

- We have to learn to reconnect, with all of this "baggage" we have accumulated, both Pre A, and during the A.

- We have a spouse who's been thinking, man, I messed up. I had a real connection with this OP, and I'm giving it up for a marriage I can only remember as less than satisfactory.

- We've endured more pain that we ever wanted, or thought we could survive.

- We, too, were ready to give up the marriage, more than once throughout the ordeal of the A.

- We, the BS's seem to have the notion that once the A is ended and NC is in place, the WS should simply get 150% remorseful, apologize 10 times a day, with sincerity, and buy every self help book about saving marriages, and go into action immediately. That just doesn't seem to happen. That, of course, angers us, because we've just become PHD's at saving marriages, and our FWS won't read HS/HN's???? So what are we supposed to do?

- Let's talk about it? No? Why not? What? You just want me to forgive you, and forget about it and never talk about it again? We have already talked about it in every way, and there is nothing left to talk about? It seems that most WS's take this approach. OK, I've been found out, we yelled, we cried, I said I'm sorry, we've talked about it, now let's get on with life. This seems to be the norm. Does this give us BS's much to cling to? I'm afraid not.

- Back to all of the differences in each of us, and in our relationships. I think there is a weird dance taking place for all of us in recovery. We live in fear we'll LB, or the FWS will have a moment of weakness, and renew contact. We live hoping what we've changed about ourselves will continue to "lure" the FWS back into our lives. We have to be careful about triggers, both sides have hundreds of those to contend with, and they pop out of nowhere. We have to reclaim our spouse from opposite ends of the affair spectrum, coming from two completely different points of view, while neither of us fully understand about the other's point of view. So we have this bizarre, cautious, exploratory, semi-terrifying, semi-sensual dance going on, to the beating of a drum that just a few months ago had a beat of impending disaster.

- I guess the answer is, then, your own POJA'd recipe of time, care, caution, love, fear, remorse, grief, HN/HN, your own divine spirit, and hard work. Add in additional herbs and spices that suit your own situation, and hope your marriage may vary between a simmer and a full passionate boil till death do you part.

Sorry this is so long...it's an uncharted path, but one we have to take, for better or worse.

Take care!!
SD

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD,

I couldn't have put it better myself. You seemed to hit the nail on the head. Enough said!

Y

^bump for CV^

SD, thanks for your post and for bumping this. Unfortunately I'll have to reapond to what you wrote by memory because your post isn't being shown to me now.

First off your insight is unbelievable. I don't know how you maintain your vision throughout this whole ordeal. And just to let you know, you said my writing is good, but it doesn't compare to how you express your insights.

Everything you wrote is so true. My H could be your W as far as wanting to feel the in-love feelings again and so he just put our M to the side and went forward with the A. It's strange. Just your writing the word affair in I think the 1st paragraph threw me. Like wow, this really happened to me. H really had an A. You think I'd be over that surprise after almost 5 months.

Those lovely triggers! H and I went for a walk this morning. We were talking about something which occurred at my brother's over Thanksgiving. Brother lives in another state. Suddenly I remember H went home with son a day early for an event they had to go to. Then I'm wondering if H wanted to leave early so he could be with OW, with me out of town. Probably. After H went to work I went to his e-mail. I haven't done that for weeks. I found an e-mail he sent to someone on the MB site. Apparently this person talked about a site for WSs and H wanted to get the address. He told this person that his grief and withdrawal over OW was very bad. This is the part that got to me. He said something like, "I'm trying hard not to contact my lover." OK, on the positive H is trying not to contact her, and I don't think he has. That e-mail was written almost a month ago. So what's my problem? Why does he have to call her his lover? Can't he call her OW? And if she's his friggin lover, than what the he%% am I? The little W. I guess you could say that triggered me. I don't want to be second best for the rest of our M. I'm too good for that. But I see how these WSs make even the scummiest OPs out to be wonderful. I really kind of wish he would have played this out. We would be "D"ed, but at least he would have known what he gave up. Now, like you said, they miss their OP, and wonder why they gave them up for what they consider a mediocre M.

I understand your point about us having it easier than many of the folks here. You're right, which is why I always feel somewhat bad posting. The other side of the coin has to do with a conversation I had with H's sister this week. She is in recovery for about a year after her H had an A. She really encouraged us to try and work it out. The other day she said she wonders if she did the right thing in staying. We talked about how most people we know who have gone through this D their WS. Maybe there is a reason. Someone on here recently wrote that there's one thing the OP will never have that the BSs have, and that is trust. H totally trusts me, but he's not even a friend to me now. How can he be? I trust my friends.

Sorry, I guess my little triggers got me down. I also reread the e-mail he sent to his shrink back in December stating that he and OW are so compatible, have had a great R for 8 months, and he really loves her. There are times I think he realizes what he almost gave up with me. Then I wonder if I am purely deluding myself. That as he wrote, she is his lover.

One more thing! On Wed. we brought dinner to this man's house who's W was suddenly stricken with Leukemia about a month ago. He told us they got very bad news and she probably will die from the disease. He is working to get his house ready because the doctor wants her to come home for a few days, because it will probably be her last time home. He said he wants her to sleep with him in their bed because it might be the last time they will be able to cuddle with each other. I see this man and then I see H, who was willing to just throw me away. Never even think that we'd never sleep together again. All the WSs who just throw their spouses away.

OK, I'll shut up before I totally depress you and everyone else on here. I am a terrible MBer. Maybe it's because I have to go to the fundraiser place again tonight. This time I think it will be the actual event OW and H were at the 1st time they had sex one. Which would mean H's timeline is off once again. Thanks to you and everyone here for letting me express my sadness. I really do like Tinman's Plan Me! CV