Knewbetter,,, Yesterday morning was looking so good I was in good spirit and state of mind, as I was telling my brother that I was moving back, he asked are you sure your ready? it is not fair to the kids if your not. I said I was. He said Eric there are some things you just dont know. He told me he was calling his girlfriend who had a girls night out with my wife about 7 motnhs back. He called her and said I need you to tell Eric what you told me last night. She told me when they went out 7 months ago My wife was with another man, he bought all of her drinks they kissed and left the club at 11:00 and did not return until 1:30. I told her I didnt need games in my life she said the only reason she never told me was to keep from hurting me, she then said that is why I have never gone out there since. Now that you finally discovered her unfaithfulness I think you deserve to hear about the incident that happened when I went out with her and her friend. I hung up the phone My brother said he knew about this incident as well, they come to a decision to tell me since I was allready shocked and didnt want me to work things out with her until they had revealed their secret. Brother said I am sorry man but I just didnt want to be the homewrecker,, I couldnt tell you. I went to my house and asked my wife if there were any other afairs, she said no it was just that one time. I told her of what I was told by my brothers girlfriend. Her reaction was enough for me to know it was true. She said I knew this was going to happen people are trying to break us apart, I told her that my brother knew about this A ever since it happened, she just kept saying they are both lying. So I told her that I didnt believe in the 12 months she was going out that the afair I discovered was the only one, she became very angry and said well it was I dont know what your brothers girlfriend thought she saw but I never did nothing wrong. I told her I needed her to be honest about her infidelety. She said it didnt matter because she knew I believed them and not her. I told her that this was an indication of how much trust she has taken from me, I wanted to believe her but I knew after the lies that surfaced from this afair that she is capable of lieing to me without remorse. So this ended the homecoming, Im still at brothers and back on the anti depressents. I didnt want to be around any one last night so my brother went to his GF's house. I stayed up all night crying listening To Usher- Let it burn. My hope is gone for our relationship this is the hardest moment in my life and I have to accept that the trust that held us together is non existent. Everyone was right it is a roller coaster. Not to much hope for us, I think I need to put my energy into finding acceptance that my high school sweet heart that I married is not the woman I believed her to be.

Eric,
I'm sorry, man. I've been there. As you said it's a rollercoaster. Right now you're at the bottom of the drop and tommorrow you may be climbing a peak again.

I had similar peaks and valleys. In my case my W came clean about an "EA" in Winter '02 only after I stumbled into cell bills which led to hearing a voice mail, which led to "hearing" a phone conversation between she and her "friend"

Of course she only admitted to the info for which I had the direct proof. Unfortunately I hadn't seen or heard any direct evidence of a PA.

Anyway... after 18 months of false recovery she finally admitted to a PA. After the admission she didn't want to "answer the questions" She finally has.

What does this seemingly unrelated story mean to you? That there is hope. Of course ultimately it's you life and your decision. Try to give it time. Harley usually suggests giving it at least 6 months before you make any decisions.

In my case despite an EA & PA that lasted for at least 6 months and 18 months of lies to cover the PA, trust is being restored. Sometimes it just takes time for the FWS to realize that the best course of action really is "full" disclosure.

Hang in there,
cwmac

PS I have never cried during my entire adult life until this infidelity hit me so you're in good company.

Thanks CW, like u said only time will tell.

Oh Eric, I'm so sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Up and down, that's the way of recovery. Typically WS, I lied my head off, too. Mostly ommisions on my part but some outright denial also. It wasn't until the true DD that I came clean and even then because of my own personal situation with OM I didn't tell all until a few weeks later.

There's something about admiting ugly, ugly truth that's so hard! It's that crappy WS thinking that gets us into trouble after the fact. The good news is that it's not forever. (Stupid thinking)

I'm a Joyce Carol Oates fan and I read a quote from her new book this morning that really struck me.

"I had forgotten that time wasn't fixed in concrete but in fact was fluid as sand and water. I had forgotten that even misery can end."

I know you feel like the concrete is hardening around your ankles right now but it's really not. Expect hiding, lies, ommisions but remember that it's par for the course. It's VERY difficult not to taking lying personally but if you can put it in proper perspective by understanding that your wife is not unique in this, it might help you maintain your equilibrium.

The more you read on this site, the more you will realize that there is nothing new under the sun. The stories as painful as they are, are remarkably similar. Scarily so, in fact! Strange isn't it? You are not alone, Eric.

You CAN do this, but it's hard work! Try not to let the details get you down, what's done has already been done. Keep your goals for your marriage in mind but realize that there will be days where you just wonder if you even love her anymore at all. You'll wonder if it's worth it to try when you feel nothing is going the way you need it to.

My H and I talked about this yesterday. So many times in his head he wanted to give up because even without an A, marriage can be difficult. Kid problems, in laws, work, bills all add up...throw an A in and look out! I'm glad he hung in with me, because I needed him to do that. I simply wasn't capable in the begining (of recovery) of holding up my end of the marriage.

It's funny how things have worked out. I am not a particulary emotional or needy woman but I was the one pre A who had to "promote" (probably wrong word) the emotional side of our marriage. Now, because he almost lost me, he holds up his end. We both take responsibility for the strength of our marriage now. It's pretty great!

I'm hoping this for you. Don't give up. One more thing, if your goal is to rebuild your marriage, be very, very careful who you talk to. We have a friend who is 5 months past DD with possible continued contact and lying by his WW. He's working on the marriage because of MB imput from H and I. The friend said the other day, "You know EVERYONE thinks I'm weak, but I feel really clear and strong."

He KNOWS what his goals are and it looks like the tide is going to turn for them soon. He brushed off well meaning advice from friends and family to dump the b*tch because as he said, "It's MY life, MY marriage let them talk." Even on the off chance it doesn't work out, he can walk away with his head high, knowing he did all he could. This can be you too, Eric. Hang in there, Ok? Best, KB

Cwmac, Caught your good news on the other thread. I hope it didn't throw you off too much, we FWS can be such morons and we NEED a good, strong BS to love us through our stupidity!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

KB,, your words help and I feel reassurance in them but like last night I know I have a long lonesome night ahead of me. Iknow I cant be with her right now ill LB the heck out of her with my emotions. I think if we are as strong as I thought we were before the afair then we will make it. I just dont know anymore.........

Eric, I was thinking about something you said in your post, that the trust that held you together was nonexistent. Probably one of the most shocking things to me when I first lurked here was learning that Harley said trust is not something we should extend to our spouses anyway. I about fell over when I read that because it seems so counter from what I've always believed!

Have you read the articles on this site or any of Harley's books yet? I can't remember if you said. Understanding them will go a LONG way in helping you deal with your situation.

For example, the idea that we are ALL "hardwired" to have an affair is a hard concept to swallow but if you think about it, just that knowledge can guard a marriage that hasn't been touched by infidelity and bring understanding to a marriage that has.

So much of what MB teaches seems like the opposite of common thought about infidelity and how to handle it. Read and learn as much as you can, it'll keep your mind occupied. I know you're sad, I'm sorry. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> KB

Eric I have been following your posts have I have to say my heart goes out to you. I am almost 3 years divorced with 2 children I too married my high school sweet heart and was married for 14 years I trusted my X more then life itself and then trust was broken I felt like she robbed me of my life and soul. Like you it was unbelievable to me how someone you love with all your heart can look at you and lie to your face without any remorse. My X cheated on me twice and the last one was just too much pain for me to bare. It was very hard for me to leave my kids but I fought for custody and won. I now have my feet on the ground again and it feels good.
The question I kept asking myself when I was going through what you are going through now is was the infidelity and lies a one time mistake or is it part of her character that I was unaware of and if I forgave her again would I be willing to go through all the pain once again later on in life.
I pray that God gives you the wisdom to do whats best for you and your children. Its a tough thing to go through hang in there and be strong not only for you but also for your kids ....they need to see that their dad is still ok.

Eric I have been following your posts have I have to say my heart goes out to you. I am almost 3 years divorced with 2 children I too married my high school sweet heart and was married for 14 years I trusted my X more then life itself and then trust was broken I felt like she robbed me of my life and soul. Like you it was unbelievable to me how someone you love with all your heart can look at you and lie to your face without any remorse. My X cheated on me twice and the last one was just too much pain for me to bare. It was very hard for me to leave my kids but I fought for custody and won. I now have my feet on the ground again and it feels good.
The question I kept asking myself when I was going through what you are going through now is was the infidelity and lies a one time mistake or is it part of her character that I was unaware of and if I forgave her again would I be willing to go through all the pain once again later on in life.
I pray that God gives you the wisdom to do whats best for you and your children. Its a tough thing to go through hang in there and be strong not only for you but also for your kids ....they need to see that their dad is still ok.

Thanks KB and Carl, Its nice to hear from both of you because KB's marriage survived and is stronger than ever, on the other hand Carl's did not but he got through it and is happy also. It tells me alot talking to you,, Carl gives me the sense of Even if my marriage is over there is life and happiness down the road. KB gives me hope that this may have just been a wake up call in my marriage and might strenghten our love for each other. You know how nice it is to wake up then read these posts before you start your day it brings me up the ladder on step at a time and sets the mood for my day. Thanks so much!!!

Eric,

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Carl gives me the sense of Even if my marriage is over there is life and happiness down the road. KB gives me hope that this may have just been a wake up call in my marriage and might strenghten our love for each other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep in mind your marriage is over regardless of the end result of divorce or reconciliation. What I mean is your "old" marriage is over regardless. The question is whether you and your wife can build a "new" marriage.

BTW, I personally wouldn't make a judgement on whether divorce is right or wrong. It needs to fit the individuals and their specific situation. Sometimes I believe that for me divorce would have been easier than reconcilliation because the latter takes alot of continuous work. I do think that in my situation a second instance of infidelity would be the deal breaker.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know how nice it is to wake up then read these posts before you start your day it brings me up the ladder one step at a time and sets the mood for my day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know how you feel. When I first discovered that W was wayward, this place saved my sanity. I was lost and it felt good to come to a community of people who were in the same place as well as those that had been there before me.

Eric keep working on Plan A.

cwmac

Hi Eric, I'm glad to be an encouragment to you but I want you to remember I came to this place at great cost. When I said recovery is hard work I meant it.

My H and I have only gotten where we're at by wading through multiple lies and accusations, nights of tears and stony silences. We've talked thousands of hours about the A and the OM until we both just got sick of it! We've been through days and weeks of fury from both sides. Both of us went through thinking we were just "settling" if we stayed together and thought of throwing in the towel many times. We could have chosen that but what then?

Everyone needs to feel they have options but some options are just better than others. You have to decide for yourself in the end but your exposure to MB has given you an excellent chance to renew your marriage. Cwmac is right, it will be a new marriage, BUT it will also be one that has the tools to be stronger than the old! Your decision right now is whether to use those tools or not.

Is it easier to walk away? It would seem so but of all the couples we know who are divorced, not one of them doesn't fall into impassioned talk of their ex or the divorce when it comes up. Some of these people are already in remarriages and new relationships.

Just because a marriage ends legally doesn't guarentee the pain automaticaly goes away. Sometimes there's no choice but to end the marriage but it doesn't sound like your wife wants to bail. Better to face the painful reasons the marriage is in trouble and deal head on with it while you still have the chance,IMO.

What's going on with the OM, do you know? I don't like to think that my own experience with a criminally minded OM clouds my perception of someone else's situation but you've said some things before that do raise red flags with me.

KB,,,I just got to work,, I went and watched my son play tee ball last night and spent some time talking with my wife. I try to have conversation without bringing up the "A" or the OM but it allways creeps up on me. Then the images pop up in my head seeing her with him. It is so hard to try to block them out. Once this happens I have to get away. I know she cannot put up with this forever and eventually she will give up,, I dont do it because I want to make her hurt, its just the best way for me to deal with my thoughts. As for OM he just got a new job as a fork lift operator at a warehouse,, at least that is what he reported to his probation officer. Every time he reports I am able to view his updated status in the computer. I hope I never run into him in some public place because I dont think I would be able to control myself. Even though I know If I assault him it will end my career. I am not out to get him or anything its just very likely we might run into each other. He will eventually end up in Jail or prison I suppose. I guess I should be grateful he is such a low life. She could have met mr wonderful,,, fell in love,, and left me. The A has pretty much gone public up here at work,, now every one is trying to cheer me up or fix me up with some other woman. I dont talk about it I just put on the fake smile and say I'm fine,, and I dont need to be fixed up with anyone. People try to pry in to it, and I just do not discuss it with anyone except MB members,, MY wife,, And my brother. oh and Counselor. I really need to ask you a question,,, Now that you have been through what you and your husband have been through,, do you ever feel like you could betray him again, I know thats not really my buisness,, but that is my greatest fear is that she has been so deceiving and the lies,,,,man she lied so much , that I feel this will happen again. I know you cannot live life based on "What if" but it scares me.

Eric, don't worry about asking, it's a very good question, a HUGE question in fact. Harley says we are ALL hardwired to have an affair but of course not everyone does. Having done it, I can say that a few things jumped immediately to my mind when you asked whether I felt I would do it again.

My first thought was of the look on my husband's face when he confronted me. I WILL TAKE THAT LOOK TO MY GRAVE. I NEVER want to see it again.

Next, a few weeks later I told the truth about why I was so afraid of OM. I won't forget the look on his face then either. Utter horror and sadness. These are memories I could do without.

When you choose to love someone, to lay your heart on the line, the risk is always there that your head could end up on the chopping block. This is true of any relationship. I have such regret that I put our relationship to the test by having an affair but a lot of good came out of it too.

Our marriage was on auto pilot before the A. We assumed way too much about marriage. There were issues of hidden anger from both sides that affected our ability to be close. I don't think either one of us were really aware at how far apart we were.

We have four kids, H has a prominent position in the community,a demanding, high stress job and on and on. It was very easy to get caught up in life and ignore the cracks in our marriage. Both of us were at risk of having an affair but I was the one who actually did it.

I brought this all upon us which is very hard to take but because my H took responsibility for his part in our marital fog, it made all the difference in healing. He had a greater personal stake in our recovery because he understood his contribution to the state we were in.

If he had just been finger pointing the whole time, feeling righteous, it would have been different and I don't think we would have survived. He had the RIGHT to finger point because there is NO excuse for an affair but he CHOSE not to.

What I did was completely wrong but he NEVER rubbed my face in it. I've always been impressed with him because of his restraint. I'm not saying he didn't LB and DJ the heck out of me at times but it wasn't because of underlying unforgiveness.

Sometimes I wonder about slow recoveries and whether the real reason is that the BS just can't get to the point of true forgiveness in their hearts, even in the face of their WS's obvious sorrow and repentance. Only they know, I suppose. It's a question every BS must ask themselves at some point in time.

I asked H what he thought about your question and he said he thought that a recovered, healed WS is probably LESS likely to have an (repeat) affair than an oblivious spouse who could blindly walk into one.

I know that I wish I knew then, what I know now! So, to answer your question, NO I don't consider it a possibility to have a repeat affair.

Interesting what you said about the loser OM. My H said the EXACT same thing about the OM. The OM in my case doesn't come off like a loser and doesn't have a record (yet!) but he is the worst kind of creep.

I don't know if you checked out Mr. E's thread (GQ) where I referenced the website containing an article listing twenty characteristics of an loser. You might want to print it out for your wife. Dr. Carver calls these people "losers" but what he's really talking about is abusers. Abusers are people who cause physcal and psychological havoc in other peoples lives. Mind bogggling stuff. www.drjoecarver.com

Check it out when you have time, let me know what you think. Definitely share it with your wife, maybe just hand it to her to look at on her own. You might want to tell her how you came across it. It can seem like a LB when you point out OMs glaring faults! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> KB

edit: I was in a huge rush so something wasn't clear.

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

As a law enforcement office you should be able to arrange for your wife to undergo a lie detector test. Unless she is a psychopath or sociopath it is difficult to lie without being detected. I would arrange it without telling her that you are doing it so that she does not have a chance to medicate herself before taking it. The chances are that she will spill out the truth once she sees that she may have no choice.

Yosh, Manipulating a spouse into taking a lie detector test sounds pretty adversarial to me. What's the value in "forcing" truth?

It's better in the long run to have the WS tell the truth willingly. Yep, that means it'll take time and some hard Plan A work on the part of the BS. A lie detector test is just a cheap shortcut. Forcing truth by manipulation as you suggest can end up feeling like a hollow victory at best or be a death knell for the marriage at worst.

BTW, I saw a crime show last year where they explained how to foil a lie detector test. It was actually quite simple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In a ideal world 1 plus 1 equals 2. In the not so ideal world of adultery plan A is not always followed by the truth..Sometimes it requires another plan to shake up the betraying spouse to reveal the truth. I think eric is aware that there is more to this story. If his wife has been having a series of affairs and viewing these affairs as just fun activities than we are dealing with a morally or mentally sick individual. The truth, however ugly it might be, would be needed so that a decision could be made to stay and help his wife deal with some psychological issues or leave the marriage.

You're right Yosh, truth is needed to make informed decisions but knowing what we know about typical WS behavior (lying, sometimes for weeks or months after DD) doesn't mean the BS should necessarily consider manipulation as a first resort.

Eric is VERY early in recovery so for him to follow Plan A, is a measure that errs on the side of caution. His goal is to salvage the marriage, he loves his wife. She has told him she loves him and has made effort towards him.

Right now she's scared to death that ANYTHING more she reveals is going to push him over the edge. Accordingly she will hedge and cover up whatever she can. I really wish that BS's could comprehend this as a pretty typical WS reaction and not assume the worst when it happens. A newly busted WS is RUNNING SCARED!

When an affair is discovered the betrayed party finds out to their dismay that they are not on the same page with their spouse. The goal here on MB is to get the spouses on the same team again. Being on the same team includes respect, honesty,consideration, care ect.

I guess I fail to see how tricking someone into taking a lie detector test fosters these important behaviors in a marriage. A BS following MB principles to the best of their ability has the opportunity to lead by example. If the goal is to save the marriage, then the behavior neccesary to do so will have to come from the BS first. Unfair, but true.

I think one of the things I appreciate about MB is the fact that the concepts promote the protection of marriage. It is hard for a BS not to be protective of themselves, but if it is the marriage they want to save they must be protective of IT. That includes provision for cutting the WS some slack even when they're fogged. Again, unfair but true.

Yosh, I know you mean well, but perhaps throwing out ideas about the worst possible scenario is not in Eric's best interest right now. We don't know why his wife did this and as far as "multiple affairs" we don't exactly know that either.

The marriage had some weaknesses and this is Eric's chance to begin to shore those up. With the information he has from being on this site, he has a fighting chance to recover from the affair and have a far superior marriage in the long run. IMO, the "big guns" should be used only as a last resort.

Hello, Kb and yosh,, I see that you are still hoping for the best for my marriage. Things have still been rocky and fragile. I still have not moved back home to my W. I have been seeing her and talking from time to time. She leaves me letters in my truck and continues with the text messaging. I told her that I could not return in my current emotional state and that if we are as strong as we believe we are then I will be able to return when enough time has gone by. I hate the feeling of walking through the door and pretending I am not upset and trying to be in a good mood and act normal. When I know that I am able to be the man that she fell in love with, and not the depressed, hurt, and angry man she has created then,,, and only then can I fully commit to her. I do have to admit it is getting better. My eating habits have pretty much gone back to normal,, little bit of the 20LBS I lost during the depression has come back,,Im at 178 now was all the way down to 170. I still have the screwed up brain images and dreams from time to time but not as frequent. I have made arrangements to keep tabs on my W, and so far so good. GPS recorder on her car has not shown her back at the bar nor anywhere near OM's home. The times I have been by the house,, she has allways had it as clean as possible, where before I did all the house cleaning,, she has re arranged furniture put up new decorations and allways has some sweet scented candle burning. I ask her where was this behavior in our marriage? She replies "I am not the same person,,,,the person who left you with the kids,, never cleaned house and acted like I had no children" So I think ok its all effort to get me back home,,, and then she tells me it is also some of the things I do to cope when you are not here. I couldnt believe it but she once again found a way for me to feel remorse,, like I was the unfaithful one. What are the odds she has totaly changed herself in one month??? Im not waiting for her to change I am waiting for me to change and I have recovered a little bit but not near enough for me to think she is this new woman. She says the house will allways be clean, I will have nice family super nights where we all sit at the table and enjoy a home cooked meal... I will do all the things I did not do for you that you and these children deserve JUST COME HOME,,... Sound sincere? I told her all of these things sound great but I loved you very much when you did not do these things. My reason for seperating was the affair and the hurt I have to deal with not that you didnt clean house or cook.. I told her that just in this month I have been slowly healing and I know when I am not blinded by the the bad emotions I can fully concentrate on us,, but its just not there yet. She says "If your trying to torture me to get even believe me you have".. This brings my thought of the day and one I would like your opinions on...Am I torturing her inadvertley,, I never really thought about it,, I just knew it hurt to be around her when I was hurting. I hate to say it but she filled me with doubt.... are my natural human emotions keeping me away because it is what I feel is best for our marriage,, or is it because I feel it is whats worse for her to endure?? ANY THOUGHT?

Dr. H talks in on of his columns about the BS who exploits the WS,, by making demands and becoming hateful,,,,,to use the guilt the WS feels in his or her favor,,, is this the situation in my case and if it is why is it I never intended it to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by eric. n:
<strong> Am I torturing her inadvertley,, I never really thought about it,, I just knew it hurt to be around her when I was hurting. I hate to say it but she filled me with doubt.... are my natural human emotions keeping me away because it is what I feel is best for our marriage,, or is it because I feel it is whats worse for her to endure?? ANY THOUGHT? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are dealing with a very real trauma in the best way you know how. It simply makes her uncomfortable to have to face the consequences of her affair. That is not torture, Eric. I see nothing hateful or demanding in your behavior. If you can deal with the affair, she can deal with the consequences while you heal.

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>