I guess I am having an EA.

I know I should stop. I don't know how. I really want someone to communicate with. There is no one.

Can I post my crazy stupid thoughts here or is there somewhere else better to do so?

I need the freedom to be extremely blunt. I give anyone the freedom to be extremely blunt back. I just don't want to weary anyone with this double-minded schtick I've had going for a month now.

Thanks,

Jg

What is it about having an EA that troubles you?

You know you should stop. You say 'guess' because you don't want to. You are getting something you need out of this EA.

It's very hard to stop. I know this firsthand. But as much as you feel you lose, once you grieve that and move on, the gains just keep rolling in.

In particular, if the EA makes you feel disconnected from, or disloyal to, your God or your values, upon ending it you will see the gains for years, maybe for the rest of your life.

That's all I can say. Good luck. Keep struggling. What you are doing right now is worth it. It's not about your spouse or the OP, it's about you, self-confronting.

Well, you *did* ask what troubled me.

The question I face presently is whether or not I am going to divorce my wife. Divorcing my wife, cursing God, and alienating literally every person I know all go hand in hand.

So here are 34 contradictory thoughts that actually reflect what is troubling me. So here goes.

1. OW is a drug to me.

2. Affairs are wrong.

3. My wife cares about "The House". I hate the house. I hate improving the house, I hate being obsessed with materialism.

4. OW is an intellectual, W is not.

5. W is obsessed with looks, clothes, make-up... for her own benefit not mine.

6. We have no children, why should divorce be a big deal?

7. Marriage is a sham.

8. OW claims to want a H, I think marriage is a sham.

9. There's no real future with OW.

10. My W can tell things are different, suspicious.

11. There's nothing wrong if I divorce my wife then do what I want - as long as I don't have an affair while we are married.

12. I only married my wife for her looks.

13. My wife feels more like my child sometimes, I love her, I care for her, but I can't expect her to interact with me on an adult level.

14. I will NOT let my wife assault me with angry outbursts, I will simply disconnect.

15. How can OW claims I am a 'great guy' because of my values when this EA is a clear breach of 'my values'?

16. Because the OW is getting a charge out of this just like me, there is nothing rational about this.

17. As long as things are the way they are now, I will be in perpetual torment.

18. I think about this nonstop, it affects my work at both jobs.

19. My students suffer because I can't think straight sometimes when I teach.

20. I can't break things off with OW, everytime I try we end up talking again.

21. My W won't let me quit my job to avoid seeing OW.

22. If I now despise that which I once valued, there is no guarantee I won't do it again with whatever's next.

23. Love is a myth, an illusion--there is no such thing.

24. I should simply live life day-to-day.

25. "Success" should only be a way to pay for pleasure.

26. I should do everything I never did growing up: Drink, do drugs, whatever.

27. God either hates me or doesn't exist, I should not live life out of fear of God.

28. I should get a divorce AND cut things off with OW.

29. Death would be better than this, except I am terrified of Hell.

30. Humans are incredibly selfish, they shouldn't be married to each other.

31. I don't know that I even want kids.

32. The world is evil because I am evil; I can't go anywhere to get away from it because it is right inside of me.

33. Nothing can really make anyone happy, ever.

34. I should go somewhere where people don't have enough to eat, where they live in fear for their lives, then I would see how few problems I have and be thankful for what God gave me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by john_g:
<strong> Can I post my crazy stupid thoughts here or is there somewhere else better to do so?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, please do!

I'm also having a LOT of difficulty letting go of an EA and will be paying close attention to the advice and suggestions you receive.

Most women would sacrifice a limb (or at least a major organ) to have a husband as devoted and loving as mine. This just doesn't make logical sense <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />


. . . gone aMiss

john_g:

Go here:

http://saveyourmarriagecentral.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x

and scroll down 2 "Reclamation ~ Finding your way home"

It's a private forum on Penny Tupy's website (cerri on MB) for WSs 2 come for help 2 end an A.

Stop trying 2 justify talking 2 your OW. You can go on for pages and pages with this carp (grayling?).

What do you hope 2 accomplish?

-ol' 2long

john-g...try these on...

1. we humans MAKE things harder than they have to be.

2. ALL of you...your wife, YOU, and your other woman...are children of God....perfectly flawed...
perfectly capable of changing...pefectly capable of doing what is right....

3. You are not valued based on others giving or taking of love you stand alone and hold great value in this universe...

4. NONE of the things you listed mean anything until you believe in yourself enough...to avoid choas, seek out to diminish chaos, and to allow no chaos in....

5. None of this THIS is of God's doing..unless you want to blame him for that whole free will clause.....
I think Captain Kirk and Captain John Luke believed in it as well...but they called it...something along the lines of the prime directive....

ARK

As the father on Raymond says," holy cr@p."

Wow, All I can say is that I see a very confused person who is trying to be honest about his divergent feelings. I assume that you understand that alot of your feelings are contraditary.

You actually do have someone to talk to. If I were in your shoes I would immediately find a counselor with whom you can discuss all of these thoughts.

Have you been discussing them (some of them- I'm sure you didn't mention items 8,9,15,28) with OW? Don't do it but it sounds like you have.

Does OW know how you feel? Hopefully not bc then it's off to the races. PA to follow.

I'm sorry you think your wife is childlike. There are usualyy two sides to every story. She probably thinks you are controlling & codescending.

Her anger is an expression of her fear. Has she only become angry since her suspicions started?


The best way to have a good marriage is for both spouses to be honest with each other and completely open. Have you ever sat your W doen and discussed all of the issues with her. If not she can't read your mind. Also don't think that you've given hints bc men & Women think differently so your hints were more than likely misinterpreted.

How did EA start? Who is OW? Co-worker neighbor? ex-girlfriend?

Why is Marriage a sham?

Other than looks what else attracted you to your wife. She had to have met more needs than being an "attractive spouse"

More questions to follow.

cwmac

Hi John,

Despite your list,I really don't see life as being that complicated.We make it so if we veer off the path of God IMO.

Many of the things you mentioned could be erased if you did one thing: get rid of OW.Then more can be erased if you sought counseling,did some deep introspection and even take time away from your wife if you need to...but ALONE.More of the list can be crossed off if you stop saying that your wife won't LET you quit your night time job but DO IT for your sanity and the chance to save your marriage and make it better.

Next,I would suggest that you ask your W to come here if you have not.Clearly she has issues of her own and I understand the type,not to generalize,of woman that is materialistic.Same could be said for men of course.I had a friend who cared more about her big home,Mercedes,Gucci bag and clothes than her own family.She went along thinking she had the "perfect" life but her marriage has been in trouble several times.

Listen,I don't mean to sound too simplistic here but part of what I see as the problem is the inertia you have.You are neither here nor there,not making any concrete decisions,although I thought we had you on the right track with your earlier posts on the other thread.

You can debate and spin your wheels all day long about your dilemma but until you start making some decisions and taking action,nothing will change and everything will stay the same.If you let your feelings guide you now,you are in for a rocky ride.

If it helps to look at the logic here or ask yourself what is the right thing to do then maybe that will set things in motion.At least that way,you can say this doesn't feel right but I know it is the right thing to do.Otherwise what's the alternative?? Run off with OW,continue working 24/7,questioning everything in life,love,marriage and beyond,etc.

We have all been trying to guide you in the right direction because we know how confusing all this is and because feelings get in the way.We are objective here and have been through what you have.We have no agenda but to help you save your marriage,otherwise why would you be here,at a Marriage Builders sight?? There are plenty more sites out there that you could have joined for a host of other reasons.

O

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

john, i cannot read all this right now. i'm emotionally drained today and i need to get at least some work done at the office!!!

this one struck a huge nerve for me...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As long as things are the way they are now, I will be in perpetual torment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">boy, can i relate to that one!!! and although i am still in torment, i am no longer thinking it will be perpetual. and that is because i stopped the A and confessed to H. nothing short of that will work. i have read your story some, if i remember right, i think you have tried to talk to your W about this some. i'm not sure how directly.

i know how hard it is to break free from the addition of OP. I'm still not 100% sure I have truely accomplished it myself.

basically i wanted to say. yes you do belong here!!! keep posting, keep reading. you will find your way.

john_g,

Then what you have to do is work down the list. The first two items are

OW is a drug to me.

and

Affairs are wrong.

You must cease all but professional contact with OW. If you want out of the snarl you're in badly enough, you'll do it. I suspect you have already let it get to self-loathing at times.

Talk to your wife about what you are experiencing. Tell her everything--and deal with the marriage. (Mine sucks too but there are still things I can do daily for myself and my husband as human beings worthy of respect.)

Naturally, the thing you least feel like doing is the right thing to do. But it is perilous to go on the way you are. You will become confused and depressed and your life will lose meaning.

John,

At some point or another I have felt every single thing you have listed. I know where you are coming from, having been there myself in a big way!

The only reasonable solution (as I see it) is to end the EA, cut off contact w/OW and at least try to work on your M.

You know that having an A is wrong, whether it is an EA or PA. You are depriving your W of what she is supposed to be getting from you as an H and giving it to OW. At the very least what you are doing is morally wrong and unfair. So we know that there is nothing positive about having an A and lying to your wife and giving what's rightfully hers to OW. You question your morals, how about hers (OW)? She is carrying on with another woman's husband. I wonder how she would feel if she was married to a man in love with another woman and she was being cheated out of attention, love and honesty in her M. She doesn't give a darn about your feelings or your W's. She only cares about her own, and unfortunately you only care about your own, too. I say these things because I know from experience. I've been where you are and I know exactly how you feel. I spent months and months in hell going thru what you are going thru.

It is quite possible that you and your W aren't compatible and it's possible that maybe you aren't ever going to be able to remain married and be happy with each other and with yourselves. But I can assure you, you will never know the truth about where your M actually stands in reality if you remain in an A and in the fog. The obsession w/OW is completely distorting your view of your marriage. Honestly and bravely look back to the time before you even knew OW existed and think about whether or not you were happily married, if you thought that your W was the "one" that you wanted to spend the rest of your days with. Were things as bad then as you currently perceive them to be? If so, you have some options. End the A and go to MC and be brutally honest w/yourself and your W and realize that you do love her and want the M to work. or End the A and go to MC and be brutally honest w/yourself and your W and realize that maybe the marriage was always bad, isn't ever going to work and file for divorce. But either option requires that you end the A! And have NO CONTACT with OW.

Being in the fog of an A hinders your ability to look at your life, your spouse and your M for what they really are, and it's so easy to rewrite history to justify the affair. That is why it is essential that you end the A first!

I'll give you a little insight as to my current situation. I ended my A for good in early February. D-Day was Dec. 18 2003. I am no longer in an A nor do I wish to be in one, yet I am not sure if my M is going to make it at this point. There are so many issues that we are having and only time and patience will tell what the outcome is going to be. But it is my responsibility to make sure that I give my M 100%. So no matter how things turn out, I know that I did!

Keep posting and keep confronting those feelings, it's very important to be honest with your situation in order to heal. And really truly consider ending this A once and for all. If for nothing else but your SANITY!

mrsx

2long, thanx for the link. I will go there and join.

For those who don't know history, this is a coworker who "seemed friendly" and was a temptation. I responded. I've tried to cut things off twice now. Once, I just changed my attitude toward her with no words, second time I told her to stop complimenting me because of it's effect. I probably just did that to encourage her.

Update: I didn't call her an OW before, but now I honestly think she is. She and I both know there is something between us, tho neither have said it.

I ONLY ever talked to her at my job. She knows nothing from the 34 thoughts list (unless she figured it out on her own, I dunno). We do not talk on the phone or by e-mail, but I almost asked her to e-mail me last night.

We just talk, and we talk about everything except for my feelings about my life. But I am showing her that thru my behavior.

What we have between us is a big ripe bubble of emotion that could burst if the wrong opportunity came along.

CG: Both times I cut off things with coworker I told my wife. She just gets angry, says I can't quit to avoid OW, and then we stop talking about it.

I am deciding whether I want chaos or order. I've been orderly all my life. I'm still completely unhappy. Destruction sounds like a nice change.

I've never been at a better position to exit. I live 2500 miles from my Christian friends and family. I scarcely have a friend in the whole city of Phoenix after four years of living here. My W and I have no children. The main person that is going to be hurt is my W. That's not what I want, but I just sense this is going to happen sooner or later... so why not before we have kids? My wife is young and beautiful. She would have no problem replacing me with someone who makes more money anyway.

O, you're right, nothing can change while I am in a standstill. It's the magnitude of what I want to do that lends me pause. There is no OW that would want what I want to become, so the OW is just a catalyst to something else I want to do.

I'm so tired of feeling guilty and failing and having to answer to others about things I don't even want to do or be. I have no hope.

Yet, here I am, typing away on this forum. So I guess I am still looking for some reason not to do this. I guess it is because you all obviously do believe in marriage. So I am looking to you believers for some sort of convincing evidence. But some people need to taste destruction before they know to run from it. Maybe that's just who I am. </rambling>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yet, here I am, typing away on this forum. So I guess I am still looking for some reason not to do this. I guess it is because you all obviously do believe in marriage. So I am looking to you believers for some sort of convincing evidence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes here you are, typing away. i tried to stop posting here at first. but then the same thing hooked me in too. who you surround yourself with makes a huge difference in your life. the people here do believe deeply in marriage. not only in staying married, but being HAPPYLY married. i've been here since dec. i am worlds away from how i was back then. i still have lots of improvements to make but that's another story all together.

what are you going to do john? sitting on that fence is extremely uncomfortable. i ought to know, i sat there for over 2 1/2 years!!!

don't waste as much time as i wasted. you can't go back in time, only forward.

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

Hi JG:

If you want out of your marriage, do it honorably. No need to cause more damage than is necessary, right? Get a D then start your new relationship.

If you want to save your marriage, the is much that can be done. If not, please do it kindly. - Dru

*frown* How could I even know what I want?

Just talked to wife again... arguing on cell phone in warehouse as coworkers walk by... trying to get her to agree to me quitting my evening job again.

She won't agree, so how could I know what life with her is like? I don't even see her anymore.

Her furniture is more important than me.

"How long will you bear with me?"

At least another 45 minutes, I promise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You needed the humor, even if you don't think so...

Okay. What do you want? I think that should be rephrased as "Who do you want 2 be?"

I think I've asked you this before: What does your integrity mean 2 you? What do you want people 1000 years from now 2 think about you after you're gone? Well, maybe not that long from now. How about 10 years? 30?

From a Peter Gabriel song that I really like:

"What better measure of what you were doing here
Than what you can leave behind?
All of the children of your children's children
Do you ever think what they're going to find?"

-"Make Tomorrow"

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She won't agree, so how could I know what life with her is like? I don't even see her anymore.

Her furniture is more important than me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how are you doing john?? your last post sounded so sad. You are more important than furniture!

keep posting here, we care.

Hello.

I'm miserable.

I'm questioning everything. God, marriage, me.

I feel physically sick. The waking hour is torment to me; my wife tells me I talk in my sleep. (I woke myself up talking about soft beverages--of all things--the other night.)

I don't trust any of my thoughts. I don't trust my instincts, so I do not do anything. I don't encourage OW and I don't discourage her.

2long asks what I want to be. I don't want to be anything. I want to feel.

Ecclesiastes 2:1:
I thought in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good." But that also proved to be meaningless.

I really hate my marriage, but I don't think there is anything better out there. The only promise is a momentary buzz, a rush, and then what? Just despair.

I am very full of despair. At the same time, I despise instruction, so I don't expect any change.

One piece of advice given here does stick with me: As long as I'm involved with this coworker, I won't be able to look at anything clearly. I know that's true, because I remember a time when I wasn't confused at all. Maybe I was just believing a lie, but if I had realized I was believing a lie at the time I could've reasoned through it. I can't reason anymore.

The only path I see before me is one of destruction.

john, destruction is NOT your only path!!!

i am having a very hard time right now too, i fear i have no words of wisdom for you. my head hurts and my stomach is feeling so sick. i want to just lay in bed and cry till i sleep. somehow i am managing, but i know my daughter see's right thru me, she knows i am feeling very sad today. we went to see Shrek 2, that helped emensly for a time. but then sick stomach came back. i read from the bible for a bit too. that helped a little.

don't despair john!!!

jg:

I don't know if this will help or not, but here are a few qotes from "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle that I've found helpful.

"Most people pursue physical pleasures or various forms of psychological gratification because they believe that those things will make them happy or free them from a feeling or fear or lack. Happiness may be perceived as a heightened sense of aliveness attained through physical pleasure, or a more secure and more complete sense of self attained through some form of psychological gratification. This is the search for salvation from a state of unsatisfactoriness or insufficiency. Invariably, any satisfaction that they obtain is short-lived, so the condition of satisfaction or fulfillment is usually projected once again onto an imaginary point away from the here and now. 'When I obtain this or am free of that - then I will be okay.' This is the unconscious mind-set that creates the illusion of salvation in the future.

True salvation is fulfillment, peace, life in all its fullness. It is to be who you are, to feel within you the good that has no opposite, the joy of Being that depends on nothing outside itself. It is felt not as a passing experience but as an abiding presence. In theistic language, it is to 'know God' - not as something outside you but as your own innermost essence. True salvation is to know yourself as an inseparable part of the timeless and formless One Life from which all that exists derives its being.

True salvation is a state of freedom - from fear, from suffering, from a perceived state of lack and insufficiency and therefore from all wanting, needing, grasping, and clinging. It is freedom from complulsive thinking, from negativity, and above all from past and future as a psychological need. Your mind is telling you that you cannot get there from here. Something needs to happen, or you need to become this or that before you can be free and fulfilled. It is saying, in fact, that you need time - that you need to find, sort out, do, achieve, acquire, become, or understand something before you can be free or complete. You see time as the means to salvation, whereas in truth it is the greatest obstacle to salvation. You think that you can't get there from where and who you are at this moment because you are not yet complete or good enough, but the truth is that here and now is the only point from where you *can* get there. You "get" there by realizing that you *are* there already. You find God the moment you realize that you don't need to seek God. So there is no *only* way to salvation: Any condition can be used, but no particular condition is needed. However, there is only one point of access: the Now. There can be no salvation away from this moment. You are lonely and without a partner? Endter the Now from there. You are in a relationship? Enter the Now from there.

There is nothing you can ever do or attain that will get you closer to salvation than it is at this moment. This may be hard to grasp for a mind accustomed to thinking that everything worthwhile is in the future. Nor can anything that you ever did or that was done to you in the past prevent you from saying yes to what *is* and taking your attention deeply into the Now. You cannot do this in the future. You do it now or not at all."

I hope some of this helps,
-ol' 2long