</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Horizon:
<strong> Octobergirl

I hate to be a ‘yes’ girl, but I agree with everyone!!

If a person is starving, they should make it clear just how tempting the buffet is looking.

Being unable to communicate has to be the biggest failure of all, no matter what needs aren’t being met. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course they should have but they didn't. No one disagrees with that. However, the way they handled the problem does not absolve the BS of her/his contribution to the problem in the first place. All this is nice to say, but it doesn't mean that the BS can absolve herself of not meeting her H's needs for years on end.

When a spouse is starved for SF for years, he is going to be vulnerable to an affair to the first woman who comes along and offers SF. That's just a fact, not an opinion or a justification.

Ok,Mel.

I agree that we each have a part in the state of our marriages,that is common sense.I would not expect my WH to be responsible for all of it or vice versa.But I don't agree that whatever state it's in should lead to adultery.This whole premise started when havinghope? said in her first post that she was 50% responsible for the A and now she has since recanted her statement.

I agree with all the plans too.No question there.

O

ML -

I completely agree with you. It goes back to the analogy you used earlier about the woman going up to the buffet. If someone is without something for years on end how do you expect them to resist the temptation to pig out on the buffet. It is in no way an excuse but it is just a fact that if a WS is not fulfilled for years on end they will find a way to fulfill themselves. They should communicate it but I feel in my case I was never very open to my WH communication to me on his feelings (that is changing now)

I encourage everyone to take the opportunity to reflect on what their marriage was pre-a and find away to make changes to themselves to make their marriage a healthier environment.

First let me say that I by no means think that me having an A was my BS fault. No way, No how. I now what I did was wrong and take full responsiblity.

It is also my opinion that in order for a WS to have an A there has to be more than one thing missing from there life.

Please dont take this as justification, because I agree with all of you there is no justification for an A.

For me SF was missing, from the day we married it was an issue. That alone would not have given me any thought of an A. I also felt my W did not care. She would never say anything positive about me. I felt like she would degrade me, never showing me any respect, in private or with friends. The OW showed me this. It was those things I was not getting in my M that made me search elsewhere. I know this is wrong, but at the time it seemed ok. I should have communicated better and this would have never happened. Had I told her how tempting the buffet looked some of the problems could have been solved.

JMHO

Havinghope,

To answer your question to me.I certainly do not think my marriage was perfect by any means BUT it was what I thought a really good one up until October of last year.I am not going to toot my own horn but having the upbringing I had made me want to have the complete opposite when I married and had children.I read everything I could get my hands on regarding relationships,children,marriage etc although I never heard of this site!

I even would ask my WH periodically if he was happy,is there anything we need to work on,asked him how I could be sexually fulfilling in bed,etc,etc.I was just always aware and didn't take my marriage for granted.Even when it came to other men hitting on me.I always let them know right away that I was MARRIED and stay away.Stuff like that.

But,my WH started to detach for a few years before the A and I thought it was work.He was very busy and I was a SAHM mom,taking care of the girls,being the model wife,mother,friend and lover,etc.Or so I thought.My WH started spending more time out each night after work,you know,in those groups that meet after working hours.Talking with OM and OW.

I think my WH felt really special with the attention of women,he always was a bit too flirty for my taste and we have had some issue with OW in the past but not this bad.So the flags were there but I never thought he would actually commit adultery.I have all kinds of e-mails,notes and other examples of how I had no clue that he was SO unhappy or that he didn't love me,etc.

So,when a single homewrecker came along(co worker in a nearby company) and stroked his ego and they were off and running.She didn't care that he was married and she herslef was cheated on by her last boyfriend!I think he felt "entitled"? We had been each other's first loves so he wanted to experience another woman I think and he was away from home,in a new city,liked the attention and there you go.He has issues to deal with though.I won't go into details but he has a lot of introspection to do.He hasn't so far and so he couldn't even delve into why this A happened, in his own words.

I have read that A's are symptom of what's wrong in the marriage but I have always been very open about my feelings and very secure in who I am and what I want.My WH has more growth to do I think.

Anyway,that's about it in a nutshell.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Ok,Mel.

I agree that we each have a part in the state of our marriages,that is common sense.I would not expect my WH to be responsible for all of it or vice versa.But I don't agree that whatever state it's in should lead to adultery. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OG, Of course it shouldn't lead to adultery. But IT DID. And it often DOES. That is my point.

The conditions in the marriage made the spouse vulnerable to an affair. This is not a rationalization or a justification, but a statement of fact. The way to affair proof the marriage is to ensure that both partners are getting their needs met AT HOME so neither is vulernable.

HH, I lost my 20 year marriage in 1999 for exactly the reasons your marriage in trouble so I can relate very much. I would not have SF with him. I treated him disrespectfully for years. SO I am not surprised at all that he left me for a woman who met his needs.

But, I will give you another side here for you to consider. My X relegated all decision making to me. I was the head of the household and he never confronted me about his feelings. I grew to have contempt and disrespect for him over the years because he was a WIMP. That is the main reason that I couldn't STAND to have him touch me. I could not feel emotionally or sexually interested in a man who was a wimp.

I don't know if this is what happened in your marriage, but your H made me think it might be because he said he often held things in and didn't stand up to you.

ack! That sounded terrible! I am not calling you a wimp, RLL, so please don't take it that way. Unlike my X, you are articulate and forthright and hardly a wimp. Sorry I framed that so badly.

MEL

No need to appoligize. To some extent you are very much right. I never have liked confrontation. Rather I would generally give her the "Whatever" or "thats fine" Not real good communicating skills.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ML -

To be honest with you I feel a little like that is what happened in our relationship. I in no way think my husband was a wimp but did feel like I made all the decisions. I also felt that he did not care because he was never jealous or did not care if other men hit on me. He never really seemed to be concerned about the decisions that needed to be made. He would always say basically whatever you want honey. Myself I would love for him to take some control. LOVE IT. I once told my friend that my WH would be upset if I was out shopping all day and missed lunch and dinner with him. The friend said no he would not he never cares what you do. She said to me that you wish he cared and I thought HOLY COW she is right. I wish he cared what I did and what decisions I was making. He is getting much better at that trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

As for the SF my issue was not that I did not want to because he was not strong or whatever. I was molested as a child and had a huge issue with SF for years. I am in IC now and doing so much better. My WH was understanding of my issue with this but I never felt I needed help and it put him in a really bad spot.

I feel like we are going round in circles here.

I would like to know just what prevents men and women from talking about their issues with the person they MARRIED? I mean,this is the person you take vows with,love honor cherish,respect and are as close to as anyone in the whole world.

Mel,I got your point several paragraphs ago.I know that what we are talking about NOW is what IS.I pointed out that the first post was about HH's statement of being 50% resonsible for the A so we can drop that now.Just because the state of marriage IS and DOES seem to cause adultery doesn't mean I am trying to negate that.

I would like to know,in addition to the above question,why people feel entitled to go out of the marriage to get needs met.Why do people get married then if we cannot control our impulses to go out and get it from some OM or OW? Why does the communication break down? Why do we feel unable to communicate our most basic needs to the one we are supposed to cherish the most? Why do WS's find that they can all of a sudden "talk" to these OP about everything? Are some spouses just plain rude and say I am not going to listen to you? Or what?

This all goes back to why I think education is important.Maybe I should start a new thread.

O

OG

For me it seems simple in my mind. I had felt I had communicated to my wife. I was facing a dead end wall. I would tell her and show her how much I need SF, but it would end with her being discusted by me and another argument.

I dont think the WS feels they are entitled to have an A. For me it certainly was not planned, I was one of you that thought it could never happen to me. The feelings seem so real. Tell me OG did you plan on falling in L with your husband? It for me was very much the same thing. I felt I fell in L with the OW. I think from reading your post that you think an A is something a WS goes out and looks for. Me I disagree, it is something that happened. I did not go in search of anything or anyone. Just a good friend was there for a sholder to cry on. I know it is wrong and wish I could change it.

I dont know that in my realationship communication ever broke down. We never really had it. All my life I was able to lock up my feelings inside and that did not change once I got M.

For me it was easy to talk to OW. She could relate and felt pretty much the same as I did. So we both felt open to talk about anything, my situation was the same as hers.

JMHO

OG -

If I had to answer why communication broke down in my relationship it was because I was not listening. I thought I was but I truly was not. I had issues that I was afraid to deal with and I also don't think I even knew how to deal with by myself. My WH and I were best friends in High School and we used to talk on the phone every night for 2-3 hours and we always seemed to communicate well. However after we were married that did not seem to happen. I think it was because we had some major issues to communicate about and neither one of were stellar at it. Even as a child, my WH had a knack for holding in his feelings/thoughts. We have always nicknamed him the "fine" guy because whenever something was going on and people were upset he was always "Fine".

I think that is why it is so easy for WS and OP to communicate openly. Truly what major issues do they have to discuss?? They don't share finances, they don't share children (at least not most of the time), and they don't share household chores or duties. Does that make it right for them to rely on the OP? No but you can see why it is easier right??

RLL,

It is amazing to me how many WS's(from what I have read) seem compelled to open up and talk with OW/OM instead of the same sex friends knowing how risky it can be to discuss feelings with the opposite sex.

No,I did not plan on falling in love with my WH but it took time and spending time with each other and getting to know one another.The big difference was that I saw no wedding ring on his finger and I had no ring on mine.He also was not married nor was I.I don't keep it a secret that I am very disgusted with OP that get involved with married men/women knowing this ahead of time.

If I saw a man had a weddding ring on and was tempted to keep talking with him,I went my separate way,Plain and simple.Even if I had tingly feelings of attraction,I put a stop to it.That may be just me but I would like to think seeing a wedding ring on a person ment something to people(not "I'm available"),not just those that wore them.

Committing adultery may not be "planned"(debatable) but it is most certainly a CHOICE.No one is holding a gun to your head and saying have an affair.

I definitely can sympathize with how you must have tried to communicate your feelings to your WW all that time but you should have ended the marriage rather than do what you did.You caused nothing but pain all the way around,as WS's do,and it may have given you both some insight now but what a price to pay.

I would rather see the divorce rate go up than the adultery rate.At least if the marriage does not work out,both persons have given their best try or at least one did and then the issues or problems were irreconciliable.Adultery is not the answer and never will be and until we make it a more serious "crime" or issue or what have you,then families and marriages will continue to be ripped apart from adultery in addition to the pain of divorce.

I wish my WH had given our marriage the time and energy it deserved and came to me instead of screwing some other woman to be fulfilled or whatever he was thinking.I could have handled D eventually(which I am on my way to) but I also have to live with the sordid events and pain of adultery now as well.

For those marriages that are saved and are better than ever from an A or what may be just the extreme realization that things were really bad in the marriage and now is the time to fix things,more power to them but for the rest of us who don't have that,it's doubly painful to have been dealt an A and a D in your life.

O

Havinghope,

You brought up a very valid point and one in which I used to talk about.The early discussions between OP and our married spouses are conformed in such a way so as to seem exciting and enlightening,fresh and new.Well of course it is.Don't we all like retelling our stories to new people? The first time I did this or when I was 10 this happened.Or my job is such and such.I LOVE this type of movie or.....and so on.

Think about your first dates with someone.You talk about common interests,share stories about your families,everything seems new and you embellish yourself just a little and smile and nod in the right ways and real life never really sets in because it's the fantasy of this secret relationship building which should not be happening at all.

My WH almost gushed to me one day when we talked about the homewrecker.He told me they talked about certain movies they both liked.Well,I had to remind him that WE both liked the same movies too, only for him,it was exciting to be sharing this with the HW.So,my interests don't matter anymore and I get swept under the rug.

That's why it's one big fantasy.They dont' have to think about the bills,the kids,the laundry,mowing the lawn,how are they going to make next months mortgage,any illnesses,staying up late with the sick children,etc,etc.It's all about going out to dinner in secret,going to the movies,sharing stolen moments,telling the person what they want to hear,stroking ego's,pretending that their home lives don't exist.I mean,how can they if the two adulterers are going to live with themselves during the A.It's the fantasy bubble.

I would love to go into detail about the events that have happened to my WH since the A began because it's a case study in how A's are based on fantasy but I could go on allday.

Anyway,I tell my friends about this site all the time and to pass it on.I really would like to see more couples who are thinking about marriage be prepared as much as possible instead of walking down the aisle with all these romanticized ideas that can affect the marriage.I also would like to see more people read about how to keep lines of communication open and maintaining the excitement and fun that marriages and people in marriages can have.Life gets in the way but it doesn't always have to sound the death toll.

O

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I almost feel guilty for jumping in here; you have such a busy discussion going already. But this comment from Octobergirl grabbed me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would like to know just what prevents men and women from talking about their issues with the person they MARRIED? I mean,this is the person you take vows with,love honor cherish,respect and are as close to as anyone in the whole world.

I would like to know,in addition to the above question,why people feel entitled to go out of the marriage to get needs met.Why do people get married then if we cannot control our impulses to go out and get it from some OM or OW? Why does the communication break down? Why do we feel unable to communicate our most basic needs to the one we are supposed to cherish the most? Why do WS's find that they can all of a sudden "talk" to these OP about everything? Are some spouses just plain rude and say I am not going to listen to you? Or what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're asking very valid questions. My experience is -- people who are insecure or immature or otherwise "emotionally disabled" are often not equipped to confront their spouse about something this huge.

First, they may be so out of touch with themselves they may not even KNOW something is seriously wrong.

Second, if they do know something is "missing," they may be so scared of being rejected by their spouse that they feel unable to talk about it.

Third, it's possible that if they do work up the courage to address it with their spouse, their spouse might be having an off-day, etc. But to someone who's insecure, that one rejection will seem like a thousand, and they will retreat even deeper into their cave.

And viola! OP comes along and seems to care, wants to listen. All of a sudden, soon-to-be WS "sees" what has been missing in their life all along. And the attraction to getting that need met is too strong for them to resist.

Does that make sense? I can give you a ton of analogies along this line; it's a concept that's been key to recovery for me and FWH.

By the way, HavingHope, this isn't ALWAYS true:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">obviously if it was a happy marriage WS would not have strayed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this aligns with the Harley view of infidelity. But the world of affairs is much more nuanced. Even my FWH would admit that our marriage last summer was near perfect -- yet he still had (his third!) affair. Why? It had to do with him -- his own issues, his own insecurities, his past. So yes, even in "happy" marriages, spouses do stray.

BH03

Obviously we can all agree that communication on the front end of an affair would be choice but that is not what always happens.

I don't believe that all affairs occur because the WS's needs were not being met. I do however believe that most of them are. I know in my case that if I had fulfilled my WH needs we would not be here posting to you all right now.

OG - it is obvious to us that WS find it so easy to talk to OP because it is fresh and new and there is no "responsiblities". The problem is that from the inside a WS cannot see that. They see how exciting it is to have someone who listens to them.

I think that knowing some of the MB principles before getting married would help a lot of people avoid the situations they now face.

Since we now face these situations would it not be better to ask ourselves how we can work on us and in turn work on our marriages??

Thanks for your reply BH3.It's always nice to welcome more people into these discussions.

I see your point for why WS's might stray BUT,then why do WS's(or any of us) get married? Isn't it the most intimate of relationships? I think so.If you can't tell your most inner most secrets and feelings to your spouse,then who are you going to tell? Isn't marriage about being there for your S through fun times and in really bad times,knowing you can count on each other.This whole notion of not feeling like they can talk to their spouse or that they feel rejected,etc to me is hard to grasp.The one you marry is the one that is supposed to accept you for who you are,warts and all right? it's these OP that you are pretending with,being the best of everything for those moments of initial discovery.

For example,the homewrecker(HW)hasn't had to live with my WH yet.She has only seen a superficial side.She doesn't know what kind of long hours he works,how little he helps around the house,all his bad habits.She doesn't know that his idea of a good time is a movie,dinner out and a quick lay in the hay(wasn't always this bad).She gets bits and pieces right now,if that.They have seen each other once in the last few months,a stolen weekend away in NY where WH decided that HW was more important than seeing his children.She has yet to deal with WH's visitation schedule or WH taking care of his children,not that I want her anywhere near my kids!!!!

She hasn't had to deal with the fact that my WH is poor now.Almost all of his paycheck comes to me.She has to pay for everything.That will get tiresome real fast.I don't know if WH told her that he can't have anymore children(vasectomy) and she is 30 and single.She isn't going to want children of her own someday? My WH's parents will never accept her into the family,my In-Laws have told me so frequently.They can't stand the fact that she's involved with MY husband.They keep hoping she'll get lost.

I mean the list is endless on how ludicrous it is to be having this A.Feelings or no feelings,there is so much stacked against them.WH is going to lose everything for this person that he isn't even sure it will work out with.He really needs to do some inner work that's for sure.He is,admittedly,lost and confused.Maybe an early MLC who knows.

HH,

I have applied MB priciples to my faltering M all along and did the best I could.I still read,come here and post,see my Counselor,take my AD's and continue in my Plan B which isn't really working for me anymore.I don't know what else I can do for a WS that does not want to work on the marriage and I am feeling sick to my soul waiting while my WH continues this pathetic long distance whatever he has with homewrecker rather than try to save our marriage and family.That makes me very upset.I am at the end of my rope waiting for WH to get a clue.Maybe he just never will or never will WANT to.

People commit adultery for a myriad of reasons in a good marriage or a bad.

I did have a good marriage before this,I know it.I was fulfilling my WH's needs,I KNOW it.We did the EN's questionnaires and only ONE need(not SF) was lacking by me, all the other's I got 5-6's.

Whatever he is going through,he did not tell me or confide in me.He became more detached and distant depsite my attempts to draw him out and then the A happened.I still do not know why he felt the need to betray me as he did(maybe curiosity of sex with another woman?).He still doesn't really know either.He never got that far in counseling.He may never really know unless he seeks more help.But he is resistant.He doesn't want to change.I can clearly see that.

O

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why do WS's(or any of us) get married? Isn't it the most intimate of relationships? .. This whole notion of not feeling like they can talk to their spouse or that they feel rejected,etc to me is hard to grasp.The one you marry is the one that is supposed to accept you for who you are,warts and all right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure this doesn't apply to all affairs. But in my case, WS got married because he wants -- more than anything -- to be close, to have that intimacy. But he doesn't know how to get it. Because of past hurts, he hasn't been willing to make himself vulnerable. He knows full-well that opening up carries great risks. So -- he keeps himself in the cave. Even with the OPs. He was only drawn out because he enjoyed the attention and because he was so desperate to feel close to someone -- anyone! (Just proving again, that it's not about the OP. If the affair didn't happen with them, it would have happened with someone else.) That's also why he voluntarily broke up with all of them; because they wanted more intimacy than he did.

And THANKFULLY, this is one of the main issues that's being addressed in our marriage right now.

Does that make sense?

BH03

I also believe that had I met my husband’s needs, I would not be here now. However, had I done that, then we would never have realised how poorly we communicated either. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not glad it happened. All I’m saying is that me not meeting his needs were not the only ingredient. His reaction of detaching himself also plays a big part.

My husband is also an expert on keeping his feelings to himself. He was sexually abused as a child and told no-one until he was a teenager. In his mind, he was protecting everyone from the pain that this would cause. Of course it festered inside of him as he found it necessary to bear it all on his own. He has also had to be ‘parent’ to his own parents for many years. I think he has been conditioned not to share his troubles.

For my part, SF was agonising to discuss, not least because I didn’t understand it myself. Had my H been a sexually confident person it may have been easier, but my problems could not be separated from his already low self esteem.

I think it is a mixture of all of these things, his childhood, his position in his family, his ability to detach, his low self-esteem and rejection by me exacerbating it, that made him vulnerable to an A.

The OW was someone he was in love with many years ago. She never returned his love and he was amazed that she found him so interesting, confident and sexy now. Of course she was horrified for him when he disclosed our problems. I’m sure she couldn’t understand his wife at all, when he’s obviously such a fabulous man. She saw in him everything that he wanted to be. What a rush that must have been for him!

She was also a victim in her own marriage (aren’t they all?) and my H wanted nothing more than to make it all better for the poor thing. I don’t suppose it occurred to him that she may be responsible, in part, for her own crappy marriage. I’m not very needy myself and I don’t suppose my H has had too many opportunities to be a rescuer. Perhaps he was tired of being the one who needed rescuing by me. I don’t know.

The A is definitely one big bubble. It’s so easy to say things that OP wants to hear, to pump them up and make them feel good. Neither one is expected to back up their declarations and promises of everlasting love. Not until exposure anyway. That’s when my Hs OW turned into the b*tch from hell. He can’t reconcile the two people at all in his mind. The wonderful sweet adoring OW or the vindictive malicious OW. I told him that’s what’s called getting the full picture.

Anyway, I can see quite clearly how some WS’s had all their needs met and did it anyway. They are looking for someone else to complete them, instead of become a whole person themselves.

OG – Your husband is running away from himself. He is afraid of what he may find if he digs too deep. I don’t know your story, but if the A is long distance, it will just take longer for reality to hit. You can see it plain as day, but he needs to know it for himself.

I have told my H that during the A, I felt like I could see him crossing the road, about to be run down. I was shouting at him to look out, but he couldn’t hear me. It is so frustrating. You know what’s coming, but all you can do is wait at the side of the road for an opportunity to mend him after the crash. I really feel for you. It’s gonna kill him when he finally wakes up and realises he had his dream come true all along. I hope you can be strong. It’s amazing what strength we find within us when we need it.

Good post lot's of food for thought. The problem I have is I don't see how it's easier to have an A then to talk to the person you vowed to spend the rest of your life with. M is not supposed to be so trivial a thing is it? I mean it's like it's easier to quit on a M then it is to put any effort into working on a M for some people. I mean if it's us BS that set up the environment for our WS to have an A, then why didn't I? My W was only giving me SF about 3 times a month my top need, but did I go out and find someone to fill those needs no I didn't because I made a promise in front of God and my W, and I think her pushing me away in this way made me push her away, so our two wrongs didn't make a right. I mean my W expects me to know about M and how to make it work well this is as new to me as it is to her so how am I the expert? I think it's the inmaturity and selfishness of the WS that leads to an A. JMHO