:::: never late paying a bill when you had the money,

Hey, it's wrong to pay a bill late, even if you don't have the money.


:::Even the Bible says that "ALL HAVE SINNED."

The Bible says adultery is so wrong you can divorce for it. You only have to do a ritual cleansing before sunset if you pay a bill late. Or is that the sin where you have to smear blood on the lintel?

:::Are you really better than your wayward spouse?

Apparently yes - according to FWS!

::::Yes, the BS is at least partly responsible for the state of the marriage that left the WS vulnerable for the affair.

You mean my forgetting to chill his beer to the correct temperature made him vulnerable to an A! Damn, I knew I was gonna have to pay for such a dastardly oversight.

:::If you prefer to think that you were a wonderful spouse and that your wayward had no reason on earth to want to leave you, then by all means go ahead. And be sure to let your wayward know what lowlifes they are. In fact, remind them often.

Most WS think the BS is a wonderful person, always was a wonderful person and that they, the WS, acted like total as*ho*es, after they wake up from their self induced fogs, of course. And most WS don't need to be told constantly what lowlife's they are because they already think it.

TOOMANYLIES <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Dr Harley is not God, nor is he a demi God. He is a mere mortal, who's opinions can be helpful, but they are not Holy Writ. You don't need to justify yourself to anyone here. Your opening comment said it all. HOGWASH. Some BS's feel they are partly responsible. If that makes them feel better to believe that, great. They probably weren't at all to blame, but if they need to believe that, to aid their recovery, they should.

One minute we BS are being told the A was not about us - and the next minute we are being told we are partly responsible - so which one is it?

If you embezzle money from the company you work for, does that mean that the company was partly to blame for not paying you enough money?

Why are we so eager to let WS's off the hook? What's with the desperate attempt to equalize the couple. One of them messed up. Just one of them. Do we have to pander to them over their inadequacy? There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, yet 50% of them do not suffer infidelity. Some people stuggle on, without all their iddy biddy needs being met, and manage to resist temptation. Perhaps they are the grown up ones who can rationalise that the world doesn't revolve around them.

This has to be the most widely misunderstood concept regarding infidelity.

THE BS IS NOT responsible for the WS choosing to have an affair. That belongs soley with the WS.

THE BS IS responsible for the condition of the marriage that made it vunerable to an affair.

ML has already pointed out the exception in cases of addiction. I would like to add to that personality disorders, clinical depression and sex abuse and or rape victims.

That still leaves the bulk of marriages where an affair happens. And it happens because of unmet needs.

Now I would like to say it actually happens BEFORE unmet needs. And what happens is one or both of two things.

Communiction: Needs do not go unmet because the BS won't meet them....at least most needs if you need something involving Crisco oil and a chicken you probably aren't going to get that need met no matter how well you communicate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Needs go unmet because spouses either don't communicate those needs or don't effectively communicate those needs.

Often you read where the WS insists they tried to tell the BS they were unhappy. And then read the BS post right behind them they thought everything was okay in the marriage and were blindsided by the affair.

Obviously there existed a communication problem because one was certain they screamed their needs from the roof top and the other swore things were quiet enough to hear a pin drop.

Communication must take place in order for needs to be met. So before meeting needs I think we have to work on communication.

Next

Maintenance: I am simply amazed at the number of "things" we own that require routine maitenance.

This computer, our cars, our homes, lawnmowers and on and on.

We don't think twice about updating Windows or Norton on a regular basis. And we routinely scan our computers for viruses. Most have put up firewalls to keep to protect their computers from hackers, worms and viruses.

Have you done any of that on a routine basis for your marriage?

Have you updated each others hopes and dreams in case they have changed since you last talked about them?

Scanned for harmful behaviors that could undermine either spouse's happiness?

And have you affaired proof your marriages to keep out harmful weasels and predators?

If you ask old couples married for years what is the secret they will almost always say "marriage is work...you have to work at being happy"

You see they do update their feelings, scan for love busters and put an affair firewall to protect each other.

So many times we take our marriage for granted. After all we said till death why do we need to do anymore.....why? Because like everything else in life with value your marriage is probably the one thing that most certainly deserves routine maintenance.......


IN FACT I am planning to give my marriage an oil change and a lube job.....anybody seen my gallon of Crisco oil it was sitting next to that chicken! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ May 22, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

Wow, this has really gotten a lot of responses from both sides and obviously the point of view depends largely on whether the post comes from a BS or WS.

Unmet needs? This seems like a very selfish and egocentered concept. We all have needs, but do we really expect our partners to meet each and everyone of our needs? If one need is not met, then that is a license to go and have an affair. NOOOO! That is a poor excuse.

We have been given a brain and intelligence to discern right from wrong. Also, true love builds up and protects. It is unselfish.

The problem: Our society has glamorized affairs. The media presents it as a normal everyday occurence. Society is desensitized to the fact that to sleep with someone other than our spouses is wrong. Conselors say, "your partner had an affair because you were not meeting some needs, maybe you did not do the laundry or go to the store when he/she wanted". Excuses are easy and cheap.

I wonder if our society was more orthodox and if we lived under rules as those in other countries or as those when the Bible was more respected. Adulterous people were taken to the city gates and stoned. Those predators who become involved with married women, would see themselves being stoned by the crowds. Many would think it is barbaric, but it happened. But it all depends on the point of view. It is more barbaric to be willing to impart all the pain and agony to the spouse by having an affair, breaking a stable home of innocent children, etc. To top this off, then the WS and counselors argue that it happened because you were not meeting the WS's needs and you should just turn the other cheek and leave it behind as if nothing ever happened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Why-me?:
[QB] Wow, this has really gotten a lot of responses from both sides and obviously the point of view depends largely on whether the post comes from a BS or WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so. Stunned dad and I are both BS'. Toomanylies, LL and others are also BS'. The difference is that stunned dad and I have been around her for awhile and understand the Marriage Builders program. Many on this thread do not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unmet needs? This seems like a very selfish and egocentered concept. We all have needs, but do we really expect our partners to meet each and everyone of our needs?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whyme, it has nothing to do with selfishness, it has to do with WHY people fall in love with each other. People fall in love when their needs are met. That is how this all works.

Have you ever heard of Marriage Builders? It is one of the most successful marriage building programs in the US and is based on this very premise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If one need is not met, then that is a license to go and have an affair. NOOOO! That is a poor excuse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why-Me, you know very well that no one has EVER said or implied any such thing. This is just your own very inaccurate, knee-jerk interpretation.

No one has ever said any such thing. Just the opposite.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have been given a brain and intelligence to discern right from wrong. Also, true love builds up and protects. It is unselfish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and all the brains and intelligence won't make a person immune to every temptation. Just because a person KNOWS right from wrong, doesn't mean they will always have the strength to abide their conscience. Unless you are under the illusion that people are perfect. Maybe you are, most aren't. [isn't it spiritual arrogance to claim to be perfect?]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem: Our society has glamorized affairs. The media presents it as a normal everyday occurence. Society is desensitized to the fact that to sleep with someone other than our spouses is wrong. Conselors say, "your partner had an affair because you were not meeting some needs, maybe you did not do the laundry or go to the store when he/she wanted". Excuses are easy and cheap. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But no one is using it as an excuse, that is where you are getting mixed up. And you are mixed up because you have NEVER bothered to read or understand the Marriage Builders program.

Saying that person was left vulnerable to an affair is not an EXCUSE or a justification, it is just a FACT. A true fact. There is NO EXCUSE for an affair. Period.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Why-Me, it really is a great program. Might I suggest you check into it?

No Pity,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to recover your marriage, you may want to begin to put yourselves in your waywards shoes and think about the despair that led them to do something so life-shattering as having an affair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I don't have to mentally put my self in my WW shoes, I've already lived them.
In our case, I was in the same state emotionally and felt just like my WW. (Our personalities are so similiar, its scary sometimes).
Truly, I was JUST as lonely. I was JUST as Miserable. I was also JUST as Lost and confused as what to do about it all.
To sum it up, both of us and our M was a MESS.

However, the one big difference in Us (and to me it is significant) is that I did not CHOOSE to have an A.

Let's not pretend that she didn't have other choices.
She could have went to MC when I approached her.
She could have told me (straight out) how she was feeling and what she was thinking. (Instead of holding it against me that I couldn't mind read).[Guess the same could be said of me]
She could have Honored the agreement we had and left me BEFORE going and jumping in the sack with another man (?) . And on and on........

Yet, her solution was an A. So be it!
My choice was to just live with the choices I made (my M & children) and to just get used to being unhappy. In hind sight, I doubt many would agree that this was a healthy way to deal with our M. I know now it wasn't. But I do take pride in the fact that I did not have an A. (And I've been tempted).

Unfortunately, I've already been through an A as a kid. This shaped my views on this subject. As a result, I plan on never being the cause of so much devastation to the people I claim to love. With that said, my W went through it too as a child. So we agreed to never do this to one another. We BOTH always agreed we would seperate before betraying each other, if we grew unhappy or grew apart.

I kept my part (even though unhappy and in deep depression). On the other hand, she did not. Just a fact.
Draw whatever conclusions you want.

Am I somehow Better than her for making a different choice for my life? Guess just like this thread that depends on who's glasses you are looking through (or maybe even hinges on what stage of recovery you happen to be at, AT this moment?)

IMO, at least in this area I am Stronger. (For whatever that's worth). Guess it at least lets us not have to deal with TWO Affairs!

In addition, I will say that it does (at least to some extent) come down to your own personal morals and values. These decide What you WILL and what you WILL NOT Do. Mine and my W's just happen to be a bit different.
OR to but it another way, my belief and conviction in my own values seem to be stronger then hers. Not a condemnation or an attack, just an observation.

Sadly, has her A been a wake up call for me? Absolutely! Wish I (and we) could have gotten a hold of the principles when they really could have done us some real good (without all the baggage of now).
Just Imagine how well these principles work on a M that does NOT have an A to recover from. Bet it is something to experience.

Any way, this does make for some lively debate. Keep at it guys, ( I know you will).

<small>[ May 22, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

I have been around here for a very long time, and have read most of what the Harley's have posted on this site as well as at least one of Harley's books. As an earlier poster stated, Harley is a mere mortal. It is clear from reading the posts of those who have counseled with Steve Harley that his viewpoints are not identical with his father's.

The longer I am here, and the more I read, the more I have become convinced that the "unmet needs" theory does not hold water. From what I have seen in the 5 years I have been on this board, in the vast majority of cases, the WS is seriously depressed, has a personality disorder or has been sexually abused and/or is an alcoholic/drug addict. There have been a number of cases where the WS cheated before or right after marriage, long before he or she had an opportunity to have his or her needs remain unmet. In many cases the WS has gone on to have numerous short-lived relationships/marriages - jillybean's husband, for instance, is in the process of his third divorce just during the time she has been posting here.

Everyone, if every marriage, has "unmet needs." There are many, many cases where a spouse remains faithful even while being treated horribly, even while being physically abused for years. People are vulnerable to an affair because of something to do with them, often depression, not because of something the BS did or did not do.

Nellie1,
Very interesting. What's your take on Plan A/B? Or the boards themselves. I believe whatever you think of the theory, the boards themselves are useful/effective. For the support it provides and the collective knowledge and experience of the posters.
-CP

:::I don't think so. Stunned dad and I are both BS'. Toomanylies, LL and others are also BS'. The difference is that stunned dad and I have been around her for awhile and understand the Marriage Builders program. Many on this thread do not.

Is it being around MB's for a long time or is it just time itself that helps all BS soften their stance about what their WS's did?

I have lived ten years where I believed that if I followed the beliefs of my religious sect, I would live on a paradise earth for ever. The 'man made' dogma I adhered to, appeared to me, totally water-proof. I thought the whole caboodle was brilliant, true and not only that, I knocked on doors for ten years to sell it to others. Did that make it true? Nope!

I am nearly 19 months from d-day and I am starting to notice a softening re what my H did. My progress owes little to the Harley plan, but I certainly can see that he's onto a good game plan, that if followed, can help a great many marriages. This may offend you, but I see his plan as 'a one size fits all' approach to MBing: something for the masses, who can't or won't work things out for themselves. People did survive infidelity prior to Dr Harley and the internet. My mother did and she went on to have 50 good years of happy M afterwards.

Why I come here is that there are a great many wonderful people, with lots of interesting perspectives, that I can sift thru and take from, as and when I am able. My recovery is so fascinating to me that I want to share the process with others. I don't think what has taken place in me has been discussed here - but if I do a thread about it, I am certain others will identify with my process.

That process is not helped by my taking a share of the blame for my H's A. I can see why Harley wants people to take on a share - but in my case, I cannot do that. EVEN THOUGH I might be considered more to blame than most people for my H's A.

Quickly: Living apart due to difficult family circumstances, nothing to do with our M. Wonderfully happy for 29 yrs - but around the age of 50, a lot of problems arise in the extended family e.g. deaths etc, that take precedence for a while. At that time my H took yet another job o/s., and though I cried about his going, I encouraged it because I thought the alternatives for him were too depressing. We made an agreement to live this way for a while. Many wonderful visits with each other, but we were not together enough.

He claims his success at his job changed his outlook about himself. He says became full of self importance and he mixed with men who oogled women all the time. Plus he watched porno movies, that sell here (asia) for $2. Over time, he changed. He did not have his support group (family and wife) to keep him grounded.

I will not take any responsibility for that. We made an adult decision, unaware of the consequences of such a decision - and though my H was having a great life here, at the time, and I was stuck with a dying mother and a suicidal daughter - I was able to resist opportunities. My H though was approached by a young woman, half his age, and the rest is history.

Why is it so necessary to promote advice as dogma, when many people are not at stages of recovery, that are capable of entertaining such ideas? To me, you are pushing something that is offensive and unfeeling on people who are a long way short of being ready to take any responsibility. My H does not think I was to blame in any way. He does not feel it's necessary or important for our recovery, nor will it make him feel any better about himself if I take the blame for the state of our M when the A happened. When ever I try to take some blame for living apart, it makes him feel worse about what he did. Can't we, and others, be allowed to take our own precarious route to recovery, without having to change our basic beliefs, to accommodate a few here who are 'black and white' about how a person should approach recovery.

anyname, I think you are missing the point. Harley doesn't "want" the BS to take any blame for anything that he/she isn't responsible just for the heck of it. That makes no sense. He suggests that BS take the blame for problems in the marriage that he/she IS responsible for.

No where is it suggested that a BS just blindly take blame for anything or everything. That entirely misses the point.

However, it is usually the case that the BS is equally responsible for the condition of the marriage that made the WS vulnerable to the affair. Rarely is the BS blameless for the condition of the marriage, however, the BS is always blameless for the affair.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it being around MB's for a long time or is it just time itself that helps all BS soften their stance about what their WS's did?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is both. I think that reason and clearer judgement replaces anger and irrationality as time goes on, softening one's stance into a more reasoned, rational approach. I know when I first came here, the pain was still so fresh from the affair that I could not think rationally about it - I was very angry. I see alot of the very same angry, irrational views being expressed on this thread. Additionally, the longer one is around here, the more they understand and comprehend the principles of Marriage Builders.

And I just wanted to add that I have been here for some years also and the longer I am here, the more convinced I am that the Harley's are right. Just remember, they are very successful marriage counselers who have helped 100's. The folks on this thread who are dismissing them, out of hand, have helped no one and have no professional expertise. So, I would take that into consideration before anyone hastily tosses the Marriage Builders program down the toilet on a whim.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Truly, I was JUST as lonely. I was JUST as Miserable. I was also JUST as Lost and confused as what to do about it all.
To sum it up, both of us and our M was a MESS.

However, the one big difference in Us (and to me it is significant) is that I did not CHOOSE to have an A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More than one published authority on infidelity has stated that in many cases the difference between a BS and a WS in a poor marriage has more to do with opportunity than integrity.

"More than one published authority on infidelity has stated that in many cases the difference between a BS and a WS in a poor marriage has more to do with opportunity than integrity."

At the time my husbands affair was going on I had many opportunities. I met lots of men where I worked. One of them was a very good looking man who probably made more $ in a year than I will see in 10 years. He was obviously interested in me, but I was married and didn't even entertain the thought. More importantly I was in love with the man I was married to and didn't want anyone else, I still don't. As much as I have been hurt by him, I wouldn't do the same to him. I don't kid myself into thinking things would be like that now though. I was told I was beautiful every day then, but I have aged 10 years in the last year. People used to think I was "about 30" they wouldn't make that mistake today. The pain of all this not only rips apart your heart and soul, it ages you on the outside too.

toomanylies, I would agree that, in your case, your H's issue comes down to a matter of character. Your H is a serial cheater. As you told us, he has had 9 affairs, that you know of, in your marriage. He doesn't do this because of unmet needs, but because it is a way of life with him. Marriage Builders is in no way designed to address such cases, IMO. However, you can't compare every case to yours. They are not all the same.

I posted this very thing to you on March 28, when you first came here. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=027485

However, I wouldn't agree that every case is a matter of low character, it's not and the Harley's recognize this. Thats why this program is so successful.

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

:::However, it is usually the case that the BS is equally responsible for the condition of the marriage that made the WS vulnerable to the affair.

OK, It would seem that both parties are at risk of an A then. Both usually have opportunity, but only one party induldges. Interesting in itself. If both parties are not fulfilling the EN's of the other (almost always the case), then why aren't both parties cheating? If the EN's theory is correct then both parties would be cheating simultaneously - yet that situation is extremely rare.

In fact what we see in 50% of marriages, is the EN's of each spouse is rarely met, and yet these marriages are free from infidelity. You can point to any marriage and see where some EN's are not met by partners. So, when infidelity is found, it's easy to say that faithful spouse did not fulfil the EN's of the WS. It's like shooting apples in a barrel.

What isn't helpful is pushing this theory on to BS's who are already up to their eyeballs in grief. It doesn't help them in their recovery process, it just confuses them and makes them mad. There are numerous exceptions to the EN's rule - but usually this theory is presented as fact, and BS are left feeling defensive and irritated.

It's just not helpful. My religious experience has helped me to understand that I don't have to bow to beliefs that don't make sense to me. I have a mind and can evaluate for myself what is right and what isn't. This EN's theory is right in some cases. That's the best that can be said of it.

anyname, I would have to disagree, the Marriage Builders program is VERY HELPFUL. I have seen it with my own eyes year after year. So it can't be said that it is "not helpful" for the BS to accept responsibility for their part of the problems.

I think part of your defensiveness comes from a misunderstanding about the MB program. You wrongly believe that MB is trying to blindly assign blame to every BS no matter what. That is what you are missing. MB does no such thing.

It asks the BS to look at their own behavior and see if they had a part on the sad state of the marriage. Maybe they didn't. But if they did, they will have to take responsibility for it and address it in order for the marriage to recover.

What is not helpful is putting your head in the sand and ignoring one's contributions to the state of the marriage. That makes it virtually impossible to restore the marriage. Rarely is the BS entirely blameless for the problems in the marriage.

See, the entire point of MB is to restore marriages. The way to restore marriages is to honestly assess the other' needs and determine how well met those needs are. The next step is to start meeting those needs. One obviously can't assess the situation if they refuse to look at their own contribution to the state of the marriage, can they?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, It would seem that both parties are at risk of an A then. Both usually have opportunity, but only one party induldges. Interesting in itself. If both parties are not fulfilling the EN's of the other (almost always the case), then why aren't both parties cheating? If the EN's theory is correct then both parties would be cheating simultaneously - yet that situation is extremely rare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't your premise wrong because it presumes that every person is exactly the SAME and will respond to unmet needs in the EXACT SAME WAY? Does that make any sense to you? No one has ever represented that every person will respond to unmet needs with an affair, obviously they don't.

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

oops!

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

any

Sadly very few marriages are free from infidelity.

Both Peggy Vaughan and Shirley Glass say over 50% of married men have or will have an affair and 40% of married women. (PV says 60% MM and 45% MW--SG says 50% MM and 40% MW)

Dr Holly Hein goes even higher saying 70% MM and 60% MW- http://www.ivillage.com/relationshi...p;arrival_freqCap=1&pba=adid=8171818

I find those numbers staggering but when I look at things I can see where they may not be all that off. Sister's marriage, SIL's marriage (one of three), MIL had EA, both our father's had exit affairs. My best friend one exit affair other possible affairs. Stepfather's first wife had an affair. Wife's stepfather's first wife had multiple affairs. The OW that wife's father left wife's mother over has had at least one affair. Two of my sales reps when I owned a business wives had affairs.

Funny thing is I never really paid attention to the numbers until my marriage was hit by an affair.

So clearly there are alot of affairs happening out there. Given the secrecy of affairs and how they are not normally discussed in public many of the couples we assume have never been impacted by infidelity may actually have experienced adultery and recovered from it.

Anyname,

You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My religious experience has helped me to understand that I don't have to bow to beliefs that don't make sense to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But aren't you doing that very thing when you choose reactions such as:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't help them in their recovery process, it just confuses them [you mean YOU] and makes them mad. There are numerous exceptions to the EN's rule - but usually this theory is presented as fact, and BS [meaning YOU] are left feeling defensive and irritated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the theory doesn't apply to you, there is no reason to allow yourself to be irritated and defensive. Remember, you choose your reactions, and you alone. No one has the power to do that for you.

And just because a principle does not apply to you, does not mean it is not relevent to others. You can't dismiss it just becuase it is not valid in your case.

For example, in my current marriage, I played no part in the bad state of my marriage. We had just got married. My H and our MC [who introduced us to MB] both agree that I had nothing to do with the state of our marriage and he had no unmet needs.

So, do I get bent out of shape when someone talks about this principle? Of course not. Why would I? I realize it doesn't apply to me so why in the world would I CHOOSE to get defensive and irritated?

But just because this principle does not apply to me, does not mean that it doesn't apply in other situations. It most certainly does. It surely applied to last marriage, where my REFUSAL to meet any of my H's needs led to the destruction of my marriage and his affair. That is just reality.

So, there is no reason to choose to get irritated and defensive if a principle doesn't apply to you, anyname. Just take what you need and leave the rest for others who do need it.

Great posts, MelodyLane. There are those who misunderstand the MB concepts and you did a super job clarifying. You too, Stunned Dad!

Minor threadjack here, my apologies: SD could you keep an eye peeled for MR. E on GQ, hopefully he'll post again Monday. Hope you guys are well, please say hi to Bunches for me. KB

The concept of marriage builders is not hard. It makes a lot of sense. But it is very difficult to make assumptions that a BS contributed to the WS having an affair.

In the LB book Dr. Harley speaks of 5 LBs, but how can one comprehend an affair when the LB is largely coming from the person who eventually has the affair. Angry outburst, unfair judgements, selfish demands, etc. do not build up a person and can wear a person out. But out of principles and love one learns to overcome those things. One can do all that is possible to make the partner happy, but if the partner has emotional baggage from childhood, insecurities, etc. How can anyone dare to say it is the BS fault or that the BS contributed.

I maintain, it is in the fiber of the person to discern right from wrong and not to fall into temptation. There is simply no valid excuse. When you are told by a counselor that "it is your fault" it demoralizes. Then, another counselor says, "forgive and start a new" it is so easy to say not having lived through that.

I believe it pretty much depends on the frame of reference of the person. When you and your partner maintained from the beginning that a man and a woman should be joined until death do them apart. How can one accept that she has been intimate with someone else. For some it is perfectly "normal" to sleep around until they "settle down". It is simply a sin called fornication. But in the context of a married couple it is adultery and Biblical grounds for divorce.

Maybe in some cases of abuse, neglect, dependency of some sort, or even love busting, one could try to put some of the blame on the BS. But still, it is a cheap excuse to act irresponsibly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>The longer I am here, and the more I read, the more I have become convinced that the "unmet needs" theory does not hold water. From what I have seen in the 5 years I have been on this board, in the vast majority of cases, the WS is seriously depressed, has a personality disorder or has been sexually abused and/or is an alcoholic/drug addict. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HUH?! I have been around a couple of years, too, and I find that most people fall into the category that I put myself, unmet needs.

Yes, my needs were unmet, too, and I didn't go in for an affair. So am I more moral than my husband?

Heck no. I MARRIED the man because of his high morals. As our pastor pointed out, he was faithful to me (with unmet needs) for the first 15 years of our marriage. Then an old friend came along to meet those needs and voila! He caved.

He was sickened by his choices. He hated himself for what he had done to us. But guess what? I was too angry at the time to see what MY role was in the marriage. I was too busy outlining in my head how HE wasn't meeting my needs that I didn't stop to think long enough to consider whether I had been meeting his. His needs didn't mean diddly squat to me because I didn't have those particular needs, and dang it, if I didn't have a need then it wasn't a proper need at all. (Why couldn't HE understand that?)

Five years. Fast forward. Lots of more unmet needs. Another affair. This one was far more devestating. And enlightening.

For one thing, I could no longer blame it all on him and his bad morals and character. My husband is one of the most moral men I have ever met.

I did know, however, for years even, that he has very low self-esteem. How could I not see that for years, as I refused to meet his simple needs and chose instead to just be angry with him, how could I not GUESS that an affair was a possibility?

Simple. Because he WAS, and IS a very moral man, whose weaknesses got the best of him when I, his faithful wife, was unfaithful in meeting those needs that I KNEW were so important to him: respect, admiration, affection (these needs are completely unimportant to me, so how could they mean THAT much to him? Surely he would see past these "silly" needs of his and work more on meeting the very "real" needs that I had.).

I didn't learn the lesson the first time around. I sure as heck learned it the second time around.

Was it my FAULT he had two affairs? No.

Did I contribute to the chinks in his armour that made him think, after 15 years of marriage and then again at 20 years, that he was undesirable to me? Uh, Yeah. Guilty.

Fact is, nobody else on the face of the earth could have made him feel as poorly as I did because he has such a deep, abiding love for me and such a well of respect for my person. I had no excuses, except that I was selfish and put my own needs before his.

Yes, I realize there are affairs that happen because the WS is selfish, lazy, or just plain despicable. Please don't yell at me about that. But that is NOT the usual case. It wasn't so in my case, but I spent five years between affairs convincing myself it was. What a waste of time. We missed a lot of love in that time and I hold myself 50% responsible.

I did not have the self-esteem issues of my husband. But I had other problems (like arrogrance,independence and hard-headedness). He's helping me with those now, like he used to. And I help him with his self-esteem issues. That is how we started out this marriage and that is how we will finish it in our old age: faithful and concerned for the needs of the other. Helping each other to be all that we can be for God, for each other and for our families.

I really think it is as simple as that in many, many cases of infidelity. Unmet needs equals disaster.

~ Snow

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>