::::You wrongly believe that MB is trying to blindly assign blame to every BS no matter what.

:::: Rarely is the BS entirely blameless for the problems in the marriage.

Hi ML, I guess the above explains why I, and many others, become defensive.

anyname

anyname, you can only speak for yourself, most don't become defensiveness about things they believe don't apply to them. So no, it does not explain your defensiveness at all. As I said earlier, if the theory doesn't apply to you, there is no reason to allow yourself to be irritated and defensive. Remember, you choose your reactions, and you alone. No one has the power to do that except you.

<small>[ May 23, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

::::most don't become defensiveness about things they believe don't apply to them.

This was a topic that was posted for opinions. I and a number of others posted opinions stating we didn't think all BS were partically responsible for the A - or to your way of thinking, we became defensive about something that didn't apply to us.

Was the thread only applicable for BS who thought they were to blame? I'm sorry if I got that confused. I was under the impression that a variety of opinions were sort.

Anyname, yes, this thread is seeking all points of view. What concerns me is that I read posts from others that basically say, "I did nothing to deserve this."

I think this is a normal feeling for any BS to have initially. But I don't want others to do what I did, waste years wallowing in the wounds, wrapped in the false notion that "I did nothing to deserve this" somehow equates to "I am blameless."

I didn't deserve this. I wouldn't have an affair. Ever.

So what?

That doesn't mean I didn't bear any responsibility in the breakdown of my marriage or, for that matter, in repairing it.

My marriage is now 99% recovered and we are very happy. And it was only possible because I realized my H was not completely to blame for his unhappiness. I had a lot to do with that.

It was hard to face that truth for me. I wasted five years avoiding the truth. I don't want others to do the same.

~ Snow

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong>

Was the thread only applicable for BS who thought they were to blame? I'm sorry if I got that confused. I was under the impression that a variety of opinions were sort. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And aren't there a variety of opinions on this thread? I guess I don't understand your issue, anyname. And I certainly don't understand your defensiveness.

Just want to add my two cents. Is BS partially responsible for the state of the marriage prior to an A? Absolutely. But, notice I say partially responsible. The WS is also responsible.

But, can a BS be even partially responsible for the WS's decision to have an A? No. Absolutely not. If you are unhappy in your M, do something about it, or get out. Having an A is not one of the options. When you do that, you don't just betray your spouse, you cheapen yourself. The decision to have an A rests solely on the shoulders of the WS.
Michael

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

I can't add anything to MelodyLane's posts, so I guess this is just a hearty endorsement of what she has written.

Good job, ML, and thank you,

Low

Thanks, LowOrbit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

:::I think this is a normal feeling for any BS to have initially. But I don't want others to do what I did, waste years wallowing in the wounds, wrapped in the false notion that "I did nothing to deserve this" somehow equates to "I am blameless."

I didn't deserve this. I wouldn't have an affair. Ever.

So what?

That doesn't mean I didn't bear any responsibility in the breakdown of my marriage or, for that matter, in repairing it.

Dear Snowbelle, I'm always happy to hear how others have come to terms with a way of moving forward. In some ways I don't really think people do waste time, on any feelings, during the recovery process. I think all their feelings are part of their process and things they have to sort out and learn for themselves. I also think that recovery takes on parallel sessions. You might have been hung up on one aspect, but you were probably sorting other things out at the same time.

To be honest, I have really struggled with whether I want to 'fix' or stay in my marriage. We had been living apart. That was the problem basically. Where we live (asia), young poor females throw themselves at aging men all the time. I don't know that I want to compete with that. My H's A was particularly sleazy and represented the worst of what I've always hated in aging men. Mine is not the usual deal. I have a lot to sort out. I'm doing my best.

I appreciate your kind words of encouragement.

anyname

cellophane,

I think Harley has some good ideas that can promote marital harmony, but since affairs arise from causes within the betrayer, these methods have no significant impact on whether someone has an affair. I have not seen much evidence that Plan A and B are usually effective - the percentage of marriages on this board that recovered is quite small, and in a number of them (like jillybean's and bozo_deb's) the betrayer committed adultery again.

These boards have the potential to be useful, but there have also been cases where they contributed to the destruction of marriages, where people have found new affair partners through the board.

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

Just quickly read through this thread - didn't read all the posts in detail.

One question caught my eye that I wanted to respond to:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity several days ago:
<strong>Are you really better than your wayward spouse?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

I'm also a better person BY FAR than my XW's OM.

And I make no apologies for these assertions.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I've said this on this forum several times before and usually get criticized for it by somebody.

Go ahead No Pity (if you're still around), make my day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> Just quickly read through this thread - didn't read all the posts in detail.

One question caught my eye that I wanted to respond to:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity several days ago:
<strong>Are you really better than your wayward spouse?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

I'm also a better person BY FAR than my XW's OM.

And I make no apologies for these assertions.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I've said this on this forum several times before and usually get criticized for it by somebody.

Go ahead No Pity (if you're still around), make my day. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">geez, can't resist....for a smart guy, I gotta think you realize "better" than a ws is a meaningless aphorism...there is no useful (or applicable) content in the statement.

In fact, folks who run about thinking they are "better" than others have their own issues, mostly in the realm of pride, not to mention discernment, which brings into question their safety as relationship partners.... but I suspect you were just yanking someones chain, or venting an emotional comment re your own life...rather than a rational position. Regardless, your (implied) suggestion "better" is a measureable quality without qualification piqued my interest, it is not.

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Fair enough. By "better" I meant higher integrity, higher morals, more trustworthy, more reliable, having a higher sense of right and wrong, etc., etc., - resulting in an overall higher worth as a contributing participant in society.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>In fact, folks who run about thinking they are "better" than others have their own issues, mostly in the realm of pride, not to mention discernment, which brings into question their safety as relationship partners.... but I suspect you were just yanking someones chain, or venting an emotional comment re your own life...rather than a rational position.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope - don't have those issues. I am attempting to be rational.

Keep in mind I'm making a relative comparison to two specific individuals - not to others in general.

WAT

wat... Fair enough. By "better" I meant higher integrity, higher morals, more trustworthy, more reliable, having a higher sense of right and wrong, etc., etc., - resulting in an overall higher worth as a contributing participant in society.

sufdb...ok, integrity and morals et al vary substantially in cultures, and need a lot of definining to be applicable... but greater worth as a contributing participant is going in the right direction....still one would need to "prove" how the simple quality of bsdom vs wsdom is the determining factor in better....of course we both know that isn't true, there are plenty of "bad" bs and plenty of good "ws" in the population.... But with no other information but that fact about 2 people, I would agree the bs is the "better" person on paper....however, the degree of confidence in predicting behavior from this singular fact is almost 0, so of limited efficacy.

wat..I am attempting to be rational.

Keep in mind I'm making a relative comparison to two specific individuals - not to others in general.

sufdb...Ok, the above was my rational response...and I suggested, it appears your comment was more specific to your circumstance...and perhaps is true in your case, you have a lot more data to compare with, and I defer to that info...but I do have a question..

Given the same set of people, you, your w, and the om.....and had their not been an affair...would you still be the better person?

IOW is it the "person" whether they have "wandered" or not the defines these things....or is it the act of wandering that defines these things?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>Given the same set of people, you, your w, and the om.....and had their not been an affair...would you still be the better person?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously yes, the affair merely revealed their lower worth.

What you meant to ask, I believe, is whether I considered myself to be the better person prior to the affair, right?

With regard to my XW, I did not consider myself a "better" person than her until after the affair and specifically when she refused to even acknowledge it after it was exposed and set about destroying two families for her own "gain." Previously I had tremendous admiration for her and trust in her - after all, I gave my heart to her.

Regarding OM, yes, I did consider myself a better person than he prior to the affair because I knew him rather well and had observed his behavior and overall poorer contribution to society prior to the affair. The affair simply confirmed my opinion of him in spades.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>IOW is it the "person" whether they have "wandered" or not the defines these things....or is it the act of wandering that defines these things? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Neither. The act of wandering reveals these things. They had to exist pre-A, albeit in a latent form.

In times of crisis and challenge, our true substance is revealed.

WAT

....and, before you ask, I should state that these two can become better people, just as I can become "lesser" if I change my substance for the worse.

wat...In times of crisis and challenge, our true substance is revealed.

sufdb...I agree with that, and have observed "good" people behave badly...and "bad" people behave well....but regardless of "prior" character (good or bad), crisis/challenge tends to clarify truth.

I guess my point is I don't think wandering by itself proves much...what you do with it is the revealing part...further bs and ws often bring extremely self-serving bias to the table, which further muddies up these issues... take yourself, you "saw" your wife as previously a "good" person, and you knew her well.....now she is not, primarily cause you don't approve of her choices....affairs are a normal, albeit infuriateing, part of human existence....everyone is an affair waiting to happen, and only don't through circumstance or choice, which is why no psychologist I have read places any significance whatsoever on wandering....but is focused instead on why. I suppose that is akin to the foolishness of describing a murderer as an evil person, until you are made aware they killed in the course of self-defense.

I don't know enough about anyones personal marital crisis to ever comment fully on character...but I find it odd that a bs would assume they are the "better" person solely because the other spouse wandered. Had your wife not wandered, but instead simply divorced you, and then dated/married this om (assuming he had become divorced)...would you still describe yourself as better? Are you better because she did not have the sense (so to speak) to realize you were the man she should spend her life with?

Not trying to be offensive, just conversing....but you have consistently described your exw in derogatory ways....yet she is the woman who chose you, and you chose....how does this work if she is that inferior? This applies not only to you, but others as well....it is not unusual for a bs to find it incomprehensible that their spouse is unhappy with them, and feel they are the "better" person. I am uncomfortable with the definition of better being tied to whether someone wants to be in a marital relationship with someone. IMO a divorce should occur before an affair, but for lots of complex psychological reasons this is not how human beings often function....the very fact of marital disharmony creates a defacto "divorce" which predisposes people...all of us, to be "available" for connection to another (I am ignoring for the moment, predatory personalities, for who affairs are an end in themselves, they obviously have issues...allthough even in that case "better" is a complicated concept...such individuals may have other outstanding good points....you just can't be married to them successfully). This predisposition is not that easy to resist depending on level of naivete re such things, or even a misplaced pride in ones own "rigteousness"... I suspect most ws, in hindsite, regret the affair, and would have much more preferred to have divorced/reconcilled without having to deal with the additonal disruption of the affair...I also suspect many ws, learned their lesson, and are probably more affair proof than someone who has not experience such a thing (as either a bs or ws)...they may in fact be "better" at that point.

re your exw, as I recall from your postings, she pretty much was clear she wanted a divorce, did not really waver, and most of your conflict was about your anger over this, which led to strained relations...indicateing more of an incompatibility issue than character issue, in light of your high regard of her previously...and her own good behavior (I presume).... how is her behavior now? Leaveing yourself out of the equation, is she conducting a decent life? Being a good mother, friend, employee...leading a healthy life (no drinking, drugs, etc.)...I dunno wat, aside from leaveing the marriage...do you have any other reason to describe her as unethical, immoral....maybe so, but if so, as you noted the wandering would then just be a sympton...but that is kinda chicken/egg sort of thing...wandering covers a lot of ground, and does not in itself mean anything more than (usually) poor judgement....something we are all guilty of from time to time.....(speeding, and DUI come starkly to mind for example).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> ....and, before you ask, I should state that these two can become better people, just as I can become "lesser" if I change my substance for the worse. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...yep, we are all works in progress, the greatest good that can come from an affair is all learn how not to be a part of such a choice again....as well as illuminate the precursors, so that can be fixed......some instead embrace bitterness, vidndictiveness, anger, self-righteousness...etc, and become lesser. Life is kinda like that, learn and grow....or not...that is the choice we all have....and maybe therein lies the definition of better.

TOO, I have no Idea HOW I MISSED this post!

NOw I am not going to even through my 2cents in cause you know where I stand ....

I've raised very simalar topics ,,, so I will go with this .....

Come on up on pedistal I'll make room for ya LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LOVE the topic ,,, be careful though you may be told your SELF RITIOUS (spell check)LOL

I'm not going to take the time to answer all your questions nor will I play into your minor premise/major conclusion assertions.

I have better things to do.

You challenged my initial statement but have not made a compelling argument that I was wrong or deluded.

For the record, I have not described my XW in only derogatory terms and our conflict was not about my anger. Where'd you get that from?

Let me know when you finish reading all 4900+ posts of mine so you can speculate from some knowledge about my situation. BTW, what was your MB screen name prior to your current one? Perhaps you've had more than two? In April 2003 (when you registered) I stopped posting until December 2003 and since then I have only rarely discussed my long past situation - so you cannot possibly make assertions about knowing my situation unless you were here LONG before April 2003. Or because your assertions are incorrect, you don't really know and you're merely guessing.

WAT