HOGWASH! Unless you were absolutely horrible, so much so that he/she wanted to hurt you, you were in no way responsible for the affair.

No marriage is perfect. No one person can meet all of the others needs 100% of the time. When a marriage has it's rough spots, both partners are equally responsible for trying to iron them out. Both are equally responsible for trying to keep the other happy. When one chooses to be irresponsible selfish and cowardly by running from those problems rather than working on them, he/she is in essence saying that he/she is the only one who matters! If an affair is the way one spouse chooses to make himself feel better, he is showing that the family is insignificant compared to his own desires. The spouse is nothing more than a bug to be squashed on his way to selfish indulgence.


EXACTLY!

Ok I said, I wasn't saying anything else ,,, NO NOT a lie LOL I just needed to add ! YOU made my day now I am in a better mood !

And I am with WAT on page 3 some where ! I am better . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I don't have issues either.

OK I lied some , but I am still better LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>
Go ahead No Pity (if you're still around)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does it occur to anyone that the REASON so many marriages do NOT survive after infidelity (according to Nellie, anyway) is because the lowlife scum WS knows that you, the angelic ray of sunlight BS consider yourself so much better than them?

No, probably not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Why would a spouse who was feeling depressed, desperate, and hopeless enough to cheat in their marriage want to put themselves back into a marriage that was not good to begin with, and now has the added element of having a BS who thinks of themselves as a better person?

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: No Pity ]</small>

Maybe because the WS has tons of insecurity issue's due to the fact that the WS feel's that the A would be used as ammo later on down the road if there was recovery. So using this reasoning why did the WS choose to have an A then? I don't consider myself better then my WS and never have even in this situation. See but I am a better person in the sense that I've found this sight and have learned so much from it and have to tool's to make a better marriage.

Why would a spouse who was feeling depressed, desperate, and hopeless enough to cheat in their marriage want to put themselves back into a marriage that was not good to begin with, and now has the added element of having a BS who thinks of themselves as a better person?

WS FEELINGS FOR THE A-

DEPRESSED= EXCUSE
DESPARATE= EXCUSE
HOPELESS= EXCUSE

MARRIAGE NOT GOOD ENOUGH = EXCUSE

Theres a patteren here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

They should put them self back into the M , to stop running away and STOP useing ALL the ABOVE as an EXCUSE and become an adult and "better person"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity:
<strong>Why would a spouse who was feeling depressed, desperate, and hopeless enough to cheat in their marriage want to put themselves back into a marriage that was not good to begin with, and now has the added element of having a BS who thinks of themselves as a better person? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ones who don't are the ones who cannot find the humility to face the mirror, and thus remain lesser people.

The ones that do usually step up, take a look at themselves, and also find a loving spouse willing to work on mistakes both brought to the marriage.

WAT

Let's try this again.

You, the oh-so-modest BS, believe yourself to be the superior spouse who would never lower yourself to the bottomfeeding WS.

You have integrity, the WS does not.

You have humility, the WS does not.

You have dignity, the WS does not.

Whether you verbally share this information with the WS is of no consequence because your very continence exudes your supremacy.

Tell me again why any WS would want to even try to work it out with you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity:
<strong>You, the oh-so-modest BS, believe yourself to be the superior spouse who would never lower yourself to the bottomfeeding WS. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you mean I wouldn't also participate in infidelity, yes - I wouldn't lower myself.

If you mean I wouldn't (didn't) attempt to show compassion, no - incorrect. I worked for over a year in Plan A and gained the respect and admiration of all who observed it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You have integrity, the WS does not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You have humility, the WS does not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You have dignity, the WS does not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I certainly do.

Don't know if the WS has dignity since this is an emotion. Likely my XW does have manufactured dignity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Whether you verbally share this information with the WS is of no consequence because your very continence exudes your supremacy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nowhere did I claim to be perfect. I wasn't being perfect as demonstrated by my XW's affair. My point is that even with my flaws, I am a better person than my unrepentant XW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Tell me again why any WS would want to even try to work it out with you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't tell you the first time. But it's because I am a loving and good person, and a good father to my son. I also sought foregiveness for the mistakes I made in the marriage and sought what mistakes I hadn't recognized yet. I have humility to admit my flaws and tremendous capacity for foregiveness - when it is sought.

Any other questions?

WAT

Gee No Pity...are you sure you aren't my WS..you exude all the resentment he does...I do not think I am better than anyone but when an individual has an A...many people wind up getting hurt..the pain from this A snowballs so fast that many WS's don't even look at the big picture...the bottom line for me is I could respect a WS who does look in the mirror after an A and realize that he needs to take a long hard look...most I suspect would not like the person staring back at them if they have any conscience whatsoever...it is their choice to live with resentment and guilt or to be the better person and straighten out their lives ..I liken it to the cleansing of the soul...for me if I saw that in my WS my love and respect for him would triple fold...

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
Whether you verbally share this information with the WS is of no consequence because your very continence exudes your supremacy.Nowhere did I claim to be perfect. I wasn't being perfect as demonstrated by my XW's affair. My point is that even with my flaws, I am a better person than my unrepentant XW.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And where in MY quote did I say you claimed to be perfect? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I believe I said you have an air of supremacy.

However, you bring up an interesting point, as does New Outlook, and that is about being repentant vs. being unrepentant.

Are you saying that you are better than the unrepentant WS, or of anyWS? If a WS is repentant, are you saying that you then see yourself as equally valuable people, or will she always be a scumbag deep inside because she cheated on you?

New Outlook, I am not resentful. And I am certainly not your H.

I am also not a WS or a BS. I am a person who happened upon this site in my search for marriage information last year. Not that anyone bothered to ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And where in MY quote did I say you claimed to be perfect? I believe I said you have an air of supremacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think supremacy is what you sense among the vast majority.

In a bible study type thing, I recently explored the difference between mercy and grace. Mercy is not punishing one for thier "crime." Grace is the act of giving someone something they don't deserve.

I think what you see from a large number of BS's is grace , not supremacy.

I personally feel supreme to no one. My WW, WAT, you or anyone else. Smarter than someone, sometimes yes, often no. Better at tennis? Perhaps. Supreme? That's a fairly broad brush to paint anyone with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you saying that you are better than the unrepentant WS, or of anyWS? If a WS is repentant, are you saying that you then see yourself as equally valuable people, or will she always be a scumbag deep inside because she cheated on you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking personally (as some WS's are scumbags), I find my un repentant WW, to be every bit as "valuable" as I.

She is a really nice person (at least to our two dogs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), who has made some frighteningly destructive decisions.

Adulterer? Yes. Selfish? In most aspects, yes. Scumbag? Not hardly.


Again, I think what you see from most of us is graciousness and willingness to give a second (or fourth, in some cases <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) chance. That is definitely the "road less travelled." Occasionally, the stress of that journey shows in our words and actions.

My $0.02......

Ethan

Posted by 3isacrowd:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK I lied some , but I am still better LOL
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I'm assuming that H's lies regarding the A are ok? I just want to get this straight. Or is it that you don't adhere to the radical honesty thing? You know, I grew up surrounded by people like you, WAT, TOO, etc. You should all be grateful that the rest of us are so bad or you might not be able to feel so good about yourselves. YOu might find that you aren't "good enough" to take the moral high ground. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Not that anyone cares, but do you know who I don't trust? I don't trust all the people who say that they're better than me or anyone else. My H is that kind of person. He told me from the time we started dating that he would never have an A. His exw had gone out on him. His ex-fiance had gone out on him. Everyone he had gone out with had gone out on him. But he could never do that to someone. And anyway if he did he would have to immediately tell them (me).

Well, guess what!? And no it isn't that he went out on me, at least not that I know of. He did go out on his ex-w. But he says that they're M was over anyway. Imagine that! Now do I care that it happened in and of itself? NO!!! So, you ask, what do I care about. I care about the fact that he made such a big deal out of telling me that he never did anything like that. He could have said nothing and that would have been ok. I'm not a person who needs to know every little detail. You can just suffice it to say that you have a past. But don't sit there judging me, knowing that you have not been squeaky clean either.

One more point then I'll shut up. Have you ever heard the saying that someone who's always talking about always "getting it", usually isn't. Because if they were they wouldn't have time to be talking about it. Well, someone who's always pointing out someone else's faults and blaming is usually trying to cover something up. Look at Jimmy Swaggert. He sounded a lot like a lot of people on this board.

Did any of you have friends growing up whose parents didn't like you because they thought you were a bad influence on their little dumplings? Well, I did. Guess what, those are the friends that introduced me to smoking, sex, etc. I could go on and on but this is a topic that no one can win. You will say that I'm a bad person because you will read my signature line and judge me. You will get out your 2x4 and tell me how you're better than me because you never "lowered" yourself to have an A. WEll, go ahead. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm a lost cause. I'm just thankful that I have my H and not someone like you. I'm also thankful for the terrible things that have happened to me in my life if it has kept me from turning into a judgemental, sel-righteous person.

I truly feel sorry for you WAT, too, 3. I hope you never find yourself in a similar situation as your spouse, me or others on this board. I would truly trade places with you. I am a better, more compassionate person. For that I am very grateful!!!! I thank God everyday.

I'm precious

furnitureman,

Your tone is nothing like too, Wat, or 3. Maybe it was at one time. And maybe theirs will also change some time in the future. Who's to say? Hopefully they will get past their anger.

I'm precious

BTW WAT,

I have integrity!
I have humility!
I have dignity!
AND...
I AM a survivor!!

I'm precious

Edited to correct spelling only.

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: i'm precious ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by No Pity:
<strong>And where in MY quote did I say you claimed to be perfect? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I believe I said you have an air of supremacy.

However, you bring up an interesting point, as does New Outlook, and that is about being repentant vs. being unrepentant.

Are you saying that you are better than the unrepentant WS, or of anyWS?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You used the term "continence." Look up the meaning. It certainly infers "perfection."

All along I have been addressing the unrepentant WS, more specifically MY WS (and her OM). I didn't say I was better than just any WS, although I would be surprised if I wasn't. Go back and read your first statement about this. I was addressing being better than MY WS, my XW.

Sheese, when somebody wants to argue, you ought to read what you're arguing about.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
<strong> furnitureman,

Your tone is nothing like too, Wat, or 3. Maybe it was at one time. And maybe theirs will also change some time in the future.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some leap, precious.

No Pity says I have an air of supremacy and you say I'm angry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW WAT,

I have integrity!
I have humility!
I have dignity!
AND...
I AM a survivor!!

I'm precious </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you. And if you read carefully my previous posts, I do not claim to be better than you in that you have ceased your affair. All along I was speaking specifically of my unrepentant WS.

I don't know how many times I've said this on this forum - I admire repentant WSs who post here. This forum would not be as effective as it is without these courageous people. I received the best guidance from former WSs.

I expect you'll remain precious.

WAT

I love that "" button thing it lets people just take out parts and really not get the HOLE meaning of the post .. But what ever.

I was joking ,,, every one has issues simething .

You no over weight , hair , bills ect.. it was a joke reread .

Also no need to get all in a bunch ,, everyone has an opoin ,,, Ya know there like [censored] we all have them ....

I would think alot of what is said, when it relates to certain things is personaly speaking or around here an in general of the thought of WS that are remorseful vs. not remorseful ..

Thats where the GET IT THING COMES IN ....

And as far as being angry well I guess in general about infedelity and the abuse one person chooses to inflict on another .... (a non remorseful ws)

TOO- posted a topic ,, and many replied ,,, it could be a vent ,, it could be just strong feelings in general ...

What ever it is everyone will veiw it all differently depending on there veiws on the subject.

The only way its personal is if the person reading feels it is about them ,,, and as best to my knowledge it was not put out as a personal attack on any one person .

NOW feel free and personaly attack I am ok with that ,,, I know who I am and learning more about my own strength as each day goes on.

I did not cause my FWS to have an A ,,, I had nothing to do with it , and I don't belive I set the stage for it either ...

Thats my personal history that I only know ,, also I do know what work I have done to help him heal and recover my M ..

LIKE HALLE BERRY said today on OPRAH , Theres nothing wrong with me ,,, It was H who did it and thats it .

If we could justifie setting the stage for the A then we could justifie a S beating a S because thats the enverment they set as well .

That again is my thoughts ,,,some may agree with me, some may never ,,, thats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />


Some may agree to disagree ,,, OH well ..

On this issue ,, I feel I am a better person with more integrity and morals then my H ...

He agrees with that , he acted out with nothing ,but a selfish attitude and left his morals up his A$$ .

BUT he is still some times in a stage of looking for excuses , he admits then retracks ,,, OH well I consider that a FWS that don't get it yet .

You know, WAT, what amazes me most is that you can placate with one hand while slapping with the other.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
Are you saying that you are better than the unrepentant WS, or of anyWS?
All along I have been addressing the unrepentant WS, more specifically MY WS (and her OM). I didn't say I was better than just any WS, although I would be surprised if I wasn't.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure all the WS's thank you for that sincere effort at understanding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You used the term "continence." Look up the meaning. It certainly infers "perfection."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I see I made a typo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . I wrote the word that means you WON'T need Depends (put an "in" in front of it, and you will need them). In fact I meant "countenance" which means appearance or looks, Body Language. As you might have noticed, neither definition means perfection.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sheese, when somebody wants to argue, you ought to read what you're arguing about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you would do well not engage people. I didn't invite the argument with you, you did with me.

OK, Pity, tell me where I'm wrong.

What's the big deal with concluding that during a WS's affair that the BS is a better person? (Granted, there may be exceptions for the cases that a BS has been abusive or conducted any number of very destructive behaviors. Let's leave these special cases out of this for now.)

I mean, here's a WS lying and cheating to a spouse who is not engaging in the same behavior, potentially lying to children and other family members, possibly betraying the trust of OP's spouse (as in my case), and generally being a louse.

What's wrong with concluding you're better than that?

What am I missing here?

I'd argue that the vast majority of BSs are better than their WSs in the act of their affair. Further, individuals in the general population are predominantly each better people!

That's a no brainer to me. Why is that so hard for some to say?

Now, for the record, one more time - once a WS comes clean and renounces their behavior, they have a clean slate to me. I'm Precious may indeed be a better person now than I am.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 3isacrowd:
<strong> If we could justifie setting the stage for the A then we could justifie a S beating a S because thats the enverment they set as well .
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good point. Abusers often say things like "I wouldn't hit her if she didn't (fill in the blank)" or "she knows what p*sses me off and she does those things on purpose".

WAT,

Your last message had a far different tenor than what you had written previously.

In fact, go back to the beginning of this thread and read the whole thing in detail and you will see that there was quite a bit of speculation about the morality of the WS (past, or present - repentance was not discussed)as a valuable person.

I never said that the BS was responsible for the affair, I asked if any of the BS's had ever cheated on their taxes or sinned in any way, and I got attacked for daring to suggest that one sin could be in league with another.

Then you came on, and without reading the responses in detail (by your own admission) you write your response and then tell me to make your day.

I came back, responded to you, and this is where we are now: you, a gentler WAT, and me, the same No Pity who came on this thread in the first place to ask people to think about the judgements they are making against people they claim to love (their WS) and others they don't know but have a label of WS.

I am asking BS's to ask themselves why a WS would want to return to a marriage where one person lords their morality over the other.

I still think my question is viable, but obviously it causes too much emotion for many BS's to consider.