I would like to hear some advice on flirting. Even though I believe my spouse loves me (or maybe I'm too insecure) it bothers me that he flirts. I don't know if it's something I'm not fulfilling or an ego trip of his. I have tried flirting with him to satisfy his "flirting needs", to no avail, and also discussing this with him makes him angry and defensive. Any advice would be appreciated.

Michele,
My experience says that flirting is most often done by people with very low self-esteem. They need to know that they are attractive to a number of people.

How's the marriage? He meeting all your needs; you meeting his.

cwmac

We are both working very hard at meeting each others needs but of course its hard and especially with a record like ours. We fight a whole lot more than get along. But the attempts are there very much so we're not ready to throw in the towel. I'm thinking of asking him if we might be able to read Dr. Harleys book together, His Needs, Her Needs. I'm hoping that will give us both a lot of understanding about our relationship. We entered our relationship with a lot of stress and poor judgements. A month into it there was my sisters death (lukemia) and his mothers death two weeks later as well as a good friend of ours 3 months after all that. We both turned to drinking for about a year and then decided to stop drinking altogether. Its been 6 months that we have not drank and for a while we didn't fight. Then I guess old fighting habits resurfaced and we found ourselves fighting just the same as when we drank (no relapses though, which is good)I don't think drinking will ever be a problem for us again but I'm trying to understand why we still fight so much. I've always thought that we are very different people and don't have much in common but I believe that even with all that I love him and he loves me so I believe if the effort is there then we will prevail. Maybe I'm just too romantic but I try to keep positive. Anyways, thank you for your reply, it was much appreciated and insightful. In return if theres any way I can be of help to you, please let me know. It's great to have this kind of support.

Michele,
You said your H is a flirter. Did you come this site bc you suspect more? I hope not.

Good idea to stop drinking. I did as well. I didn't have any cravings. Either of you? Sounds like you like me were abusing alcohol to try to self medicate.

I don't know your whole situation but it sounds as though both of you may be in a depression. Probably brought by the stress of the deaths.

Will your H go to marriage counseling so you can correct some of the habits in your marriage behavior?

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've always thought that we are very different people and don't have much in common but I believe that even with all that I love him and he loves me so I believe if the effort is there then we will prevail. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opposites do attract. I believe that we look for a spouse that is our opposite because they complete us and make us a whole person.

I'm reading a book right now that suggests that we also tend to look for mates that have the same traits as our parents. Unfortunately the bad traits as well as the good ones. We focus on the good ones as we meet and court. After the honeymoon period is over we tend to focus on the bad traits.

What causes the arguments? Describe the typical behavior and reactions that are the pattern.

Hang in there.

cwmac

No fortunately I don't believe there is anything more to his flirting than building his self esteem, but I do wonder why it is that I can't do that for him instead of other women (probably all the fighting has made my flirting not worth much value, I suppose?). It makes me feel unattractive and I don't need that right now on top of all other problems in our relationship. I agree with you on the self medicating, it only numbed things until later. I have asked him how he feels about cravings because we still hang out with old friends that drink but I believe him as well as myself that we both value this relationship more than anything - we're both always trying to find ways to "fix us", so to speak. I can also agree that we are depressed because of all the fighting we have done and it only brings hard remorseful feelings and nothing good to the relationship. That is why I turned to the internet for help and found that Dr. Harley just really clicked for what I was feeling and maybe him too. By the way, we just got back from purchasing Dr. Harley's book "His Needs, Her Needs, and he agreed to start reading some tonight!!! I told him if it doesn't help we haven't lost anything really, just made another effort to make things better - how could that be wrong? Yes again you are correct in the finding mates with our parents traits, my father was an alcoholic as well as his mother.
Typical fight: In my mind, he tries to show off to others and it bothers me because I'm a more quiet, down to earth, not flashy type. Also he tells everyone everything ie any fight we have everyone in my family, his family and his neighbor friends know the story - his side anyways, never mine, which makes me feel like they believe every word he says and think I'm awful. This is hard, because here I am telling all just as I accuse him but I feel I need to hear input to use and I feel he does it for justification so he can say "see they all agree with me and your wrong" So then we start yelling at each other, me asking why do you need to show off or tell everyone everything. Him getting angry and saying that he isn't, and that I have put things into my own head like I'm crazy but my family tells me the things he says. Sometimes I wonder why I care so much what others think but yet I don't think thats it - I think it bothers me that he feels the need to make me look bad and himself look better - thats not a "caring for the other person" type of thing to do. Thats harmful and non-supportive, if you ask me. Thats why I want to read this book and try to show him that we're not caring for each other the way we should be. I guess the next step would be counseling but I'd like to try this first. Thanks for your support and questioning, I promise my replies will get shorter, it's just been a while since I talked to anyone and I don't have a support team within my family even as they don't like my H much because of all the fights - I have told them it takes two to fight and that I do cause some of the arguements but to them blood is always thicker than water. Thanks again for listening. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Michele,
I'm from a family that yelled and screamed as well. At least my parents did. The best way to respond when someone starts to yell is to respond in a very soft soothing voice. I know it's hard but think to yourself, "stop the drama." Repeat it again and again. When I say stop the drama I mean don't let things escalate and get out of control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my mind, he tries to show off to others and it bothers me because I'm a more quiet, down to earth, not flashy type. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does he showoff? Why does his showing off bother you? It reflects primarily on him.

I was however, the exact same way when I was younger. I was the only boy amongst a mother, sisiter, girl cousins, aunts etc. I felt embarrassed everytime I went in public with them.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> any fight we have everyone in my family, his family and his neighbor friends know the story - his side anyways, never mine, which makes me feel like they believe every word he says and think I'm awful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your H's way to rationalize his behavior. Tell your H that when he does this he wins the battle (makes relatives and friends believe that he's right) but he loses the war (he makes you feel alienated)

Sounds like the two of you need a way to resolve conflict. Read about Harley's policy of joint agreement (POJA)Basically it says that if the two of you can't agree on an activity ot behavior then you shouldn't do it. Compromising really doesn't work because someone is Taking and the other is Giving.

I'm no expert but glad I could help. Keep working on your marriage. If you can it sounds like both of you may want to consider a brief bit of IC before the MC. Children of alcoholics usually have personal issues to deal with ie abandonment, lack of acknowledgement, etc.

Cwmac

PS Try to break your long paragraphs into shorter ones. It's easier on the eyes to read.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Thanks for the tip on breaking up paragraphs, I didn't realize. What is IC? (Sorry but I'm new to all of this.) There are no children other than my grown children and they are out of the house.

It's hard not to yell back when someone's pushing your buttons, but I do try and sometimes I think he doesn't like it that I have that control in my emotions as he blows up quite often, he thinks my being calm is my not caring or uninterest in the relationship.

His showing off bothers me because most of it is lies or additives to the story to make him sound better and I like to be more truthful. He tells all stories like fishing stories "the fish was this BIG! Or, "yeah I played the harmonica last night and everyone loved me the whole place was rockin" Ok two people came up and complimented him, not the whole place.

This low self esteem is way out of hand and I don't know how to help him (or help myself deal with it) when I just feel like screaming at him (of course I don't really mean that, it's just frustrating)why can't you just be you, not this great exciting show off of a person. Being you is good enough. Sometimes it makes me feel like if he can't be real in life, then how can he be real with us? You know, as I'm typing this I'm thinking of telling him all of this in this way because it seems to make sense.

If you don't mind me asking, why were you embarrassed in public with your family? I have a very large family and we do crazy and goofy things in public but that's all in fun and we're not lying about what we say as my H does.

We started reading the book last night and we had fun doing it! I'm surprised it made a lot of sense to him and he even said he was glad we got the book.

It's great to hear feedback.

P.S. I think this reply was shorter. Wow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks

Michele,
I'm not an expert on self-esteem issues. IC = individual counseling. A good IC can deal with these issues.

I'm glad the two of you like the book, "His Needs/ Her Needs." When the two of you realize each others needs and work on them so that the other feels like meeting your needs, I think alot of the conflict wil go by the wayside. (I hope)

Some of the other Harley concepts are POJA = Policy of Joint Agreement. This will also help reduce the conflict.

You can read about these concepts and more up on the MB main page.

One of the concepts discusses judgemental attitudes towards each other. My guess is that both of you show each other this judgemental attitude which upsets the other.

Why was I embarrassed as a kid?? Hmm Good question. My guess is that I was one of the only males in a family with dominant controlling females. Didn't say much (didn't have to the females said enough for six of me) I became more of a thinker than a speaker. Didn't get much acknowledgement.

Also most of my memory of being embarrassed goes back to preteen and tennage years. (what teenager isn't embarrassed of how their family acts?)

cwmac

Yes those teenage years aren't much fun for any of us, much less a male among all females. I guess it's how you grow out of them and what you do from there on. Maybe we all hold on to some of those years.

No money right now for any kind of counseling (individual or otherwise), just trying the book right now.

Fighting yet again today. Today he did not believe me when I told him nothings wrong when he asked, and there really was NOTHING wrong. I wasn't upset or angry or even depressed. Nothing. I tried to explain that but he didn't want to believe me, so a fight started. I started accussing him of being upset about something and trying to say it was me. Back and forth, over something so trivial " how one of us perceived the other to be feeling". It's frustrating to fight over those little things when we could be solving some other problems we have.

Maybe when we read some more tonight things will become clearer. Do you know where to find the part about judgemental attitudes? Or is it in a different book?

I understand your not a professional (and I do know my H and me have self-esteem issues), I just enjoy the chitter chatter and a second opinion, other than my own pig-headedness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you

All I can say to your last post is that you and your H need to spend quality happy time together. No relationship talks. No judgemental comments. Just find something that you boyh enjoy doing and do it.

Also NO MIND READING. Sounds like both of you are guilty of that.

That is sure fire way to start a fight. Stop the games,too. The pouting, the hurt deelings etc.

It's your life and marriage. Make it a good one.

cwmac

Thank you and we will make it a good one. Lots of good reading last night, with some laughter and serious talks. Today, even better, we talked through a problem we have with no yelling or accusatory comments and actually understood each other. Both of us knowing this book is no miracle, and that we are the ones to do the work to make our relationship last, we are still grateful to have found it and that it is giving us a way to understand working through our problems.