and confidence. 2 weeks since finding out of the affair. This weekend I had a moment of clarity. I love myself, I enjoy being with myself, I don't rely on another human being for happiness, she broke the contract not me, i don't think that I even want someone in my life who is capable of treating me this way. There are thousands of women out there who would fully appreciate me and want to be with me over all others. Let's face it, the people who we are married to are not the people that we thought they were. Without extreme remorse they don't even deserve our marriage or even friendship and they have proven that by their actions. We all need to start thinking of ourselves more not them. They made the choice and there are consequences for that. They may not happen now but they will. if you haven't been abusive to your spouses and just loved them with all of your hearts you do not deserve to be treated like this. Let's all move forward in life regardless of their coming home or whatever. Turn the tragedy into personal power and strength instead of depression. Tramatic events can be transferred positively or negatively. Let's take the WS power away from them and into us. Granted I know this is different with children involved.

Do you not have any children together? It seems like you are angry and determined to just end the relationship. Have you been to counseling?

<small>[ May 24, 2004, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Why-me? ]</small>

I think even with children this works.

This doesn't mean you can't stay with a person...depending on how bad it is, and if they continue the same behavior...but you can be happy with yourself. Good words to live by.

I am already mostly in this frame of mind and I do have children with a WH.He is really pushing for a friendship with me even though we are headed toward a D but that is not what *I* want.If there is a time for we BS's to be selfish that would be it for me.WH doesn't deserve my friendship after all the pain he's caused and he would love nothing more than for me to be ok with what he has done to relieve his conscience,if he has one(debatable).

So,I am moving forward as they say,slowly and methodically,carefully and calmly as much as possible.

O

No, no children. I tried to resolve this with her, but she chooses to continue the affair and that is on her.

I can have self-respect and still love my husband.

The reason we are in so much pain, is because we love and care for our spouse that has done us wrong. It is not that easy to stop loving someone that you have loved for several years.

I know I'm such a better person than the OW and I can stand proud without shame. I do love myself and I can take care of me with or without him.

Over the years, my WH became a part of me, and still is, even though he is with the OW. Does he deserve my love, right now?, NO, but he still has my heart.

I know I can go out and find someone new, but this is my marriage and my husband. I'm going to fight for my marriage and because I have self-respect, I'm not going to quit. That is the easy way out.

I'm proud of the independent woman I am, but also proud of being a good wife with good morals. Marriage is a commitment. If or when I get my WH back, he is going to come back because I do have self-respect for myself, I didn't laid down and die when we separated, or give up on him when he might give up on us.

HopelesslyDevoted2, I must say this. I admire the way you think. This would be a different world if most women thought like you do and valued being a good wife with good morals. You are so correct in saying that it hurts so much because those people are people that we truly loved, but it is shocking when you discover that they are not the person they told you they were all along and that was one of the reasons that you married them. I think many of us stay because we care for them, we feel obligated to our children and because we made a promise to them and to God. Yes, we have been married to our WSs for years and they have become part of our lives, but after they have been willing to ruin a beautiful union, is romantic love something that is recovered? Especially if both partners were brought up in a traditional culture and were both had not been with anyone before marriage.

I believe that a marriage can recover from this. I agree with Hopelessdevoted2 self-respect can be had at the same time that a WS is involved in A.
It is the WS that has no self-respect.

But Juke123, it seems you are missing the main point that generally A's are results of problems that existed prior to the A. That generally marriages have dropped the ball way before the A starts. Someones needs were not met. And even though a BS shouldn't take blame for an A, they should seriously take responsibility for the demise of the marriage prior to the A.

Dear Juke123,

I am now 7 mos. into recovery and my M is better than it has been in years.....

But I TOTALLY agree with a couple things you said!! If I had no children, and my H was NOT 100% committed to our M~~~It would be asta la vista baby!! NO need to even think about it for me!

Love........although I so deeply love him, if he was NOT committed and no children...

So I agree on those two points.
The one disagreement I do have is in the title to this post!!

I think that even those who try desperatly to save their M's even when the WS is NOT....does not mean they do not have self-respect.

Just means they are willing to put theirselves and their emotions more on the line than those of us who would not try!!

Everyone is different in the amoount of time and energy they are willing to put into their M.

I am just thankful every day that my own H was remorsful and N/C from D/D and committed to have a better than ever M!!!

blessings,
atruheart

::::This weekend I had a moment of clarity. I love myself, I enjoy being with myself, I don't rely on another human being for happiness, she broke the contract not me, i don't think that I even want someone in my life who is capable of treating me this way. There are thousands of women out there who would fully appreciate me and want to be with me over all others.

You got that right! I believe there are many women out there who understand the meaning of integrity. You are quite within your rights to expect faithfulness of your wife. Even the Bible is very clear about it. Adultery is the only grounds for divorce. God does not confuse the issue with lectures about forgiveness, or qualify her adultery by telling you that you were partially to blame for the state of your marriage that caused your wife to stray. You are free to go. Even Bible folk can't fault you for choosing that option.

It's pretty much down to whether you love her or need her over and above the pain and hurt you will go thru trying to recover and trust her again. If I was young and starting out, I would not have stayed in my M. I am having a hard enough time staying after 30 yrs of marriage. I have a wonderfully repentant FWH, but some of us see things a certain way, and it's very hard to change our beliefs to accommodate betrayals of monumental proportions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Adultery is the only grounds for divorce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyname,

Although this is true....GOD still HATES D!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think he knew though that his requirements of a W towards her husband (respect) may have been washed away forever with an A and the requirements of a H (love) would odviously be hard to regain after A.

I am just fortunate that God convicted my H early on, on what was important! I thank him every day too, I know that others out there are not as fortunate.....and it makes me very sad. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> that is why I do say "only by the grace of God"..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When I first met my H fourteen years ago, I was the one who lacking self-respect. My H taught me how to love myself and how to enjoy life to its fullest.

He is the best thing that ever happen to me, he has shown me so much joy and love over the years. Now the tables have turn. He is the one who doesn't believe in himself. Even though he has caused me so much pain, I'm not going to give up on a man, who never gave up on me. He is worth fight for, without me giving up my self-respect. I'm not going to crawl or beg, but be the best person I can be.

Things have been tough for us in the last year. He lost his job and went into a depression. The married OW who has been after him for years (she is really after my in-laws money) saw this and went after him. She used his insecuries to her advantage. BTW, my in-laws are on to her game.

Not that my H is not to blame, he is, no on put a gun to his head to have this A. The OW is calculating and malipulating, she twisted his belief system.

As long as he doesn't believe in himself and lacking in self-respect, she is in control, and that is the way she wants it to be.

I still cry and get angry over the A. It is hard to accept a man who was so strong in his morals and his love for God, is now beaten down.

I married him for better or for worse. The only thing I can control is me. However this situation plays out, I know throughout I didn't lower my standards and I will be a stronger person with or without him. God has a plan, I just have to have faith.

I keep hearing that adultery is the only case for divorce according to the Bible and I believe this text is being taken out of context, IMHO. The following is taken from the book of Matthew in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. - 7They said to him, ‘Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?’ 8He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity , and marries another commits adultery.’
What Jesus was saying is that Moses was the one who allowed people to divorce in the first place because human beings' hearts were so full of spitefulness & bitterness. But according to God, the ultimate authority who created marriage, He never wanted it to be that way. He distinctly says two different words here - UNCHASTITY and ADULTERY. Unchastity means not being pure, or a virgin when they would marry and adultery means having an affair after being married. So what Jesus was telling the Pharisees was that unless they found out that their wife was not a virgin (like Joseph thought of Mary at first), then they needed to stay married to her. If he did not, and divorced her and married another woman, they would have been considered committing adultery on their former wife. This shows the bond that God unites man & wife with is till DEATH. That is the ONLY way you can be released from that bond.

Now, while I believe that separation is sometimes necessary to heal from a broken state or for God to reach someone's heart, I don't believe that person necessarily has to divorce in order to be happy again or to gain their self-respect. Sometimes, yes, self-respect goes down the tubes when married to an abuser, for example, and in this case, separation is definitely needed in order for God to reach the abuser! However, what God has joined together, let no MAN separate, and the laws of this country were created by MEN.

That brings another point to consider - What GOD has joined together....Does God unite every man & wife? I don't believe so. Sometimes people are so quick to choose someone, to "fall in love", they do not allow God to bring the right person into their life. They think they know who is right for them, but is this the one God KNOWS is right for you? It is very important that we commune with God daily & really keep in contact with Him about His will for us.

With both those things being said, I believe that if you have let GOD choose your mate for you, then you shouldn't divorce but allow God to work on you & your mate so you can come together again in a God-centered union. If, after much soul-searching & prayer, you don't believe you let God bring your mate to you but rather took it upon yourself to choose who you're going to be with, than you need to ask for forgiveness for this to begin with, not allowing Him to decide your mate for you & let Him show you what you should do.

I don't know, sometimes He gives us 2nd chances after screwing up in our decisions, for example, having a spouse take someone back after cheating or abuse or whatever. Why would marriage be any different? Maybe sometimes He allows a divorce to happen, shakes His finger at us saying, You should have listened to me and then give you a 2nd chance to be with the person HE chose for you.

Sorry if I'm ranting & rambling on, but when I read what Anyname said, it just struck me & I had to say something. Of course, this is JMHO & no one has to agree with me.

As far as thinking of ourselves, well, isn't that exactly what the WS have done? Thought of themselves only & not the BS? Thinking of ourselves first will only create strife, not love & we are all called to love others more than ourselves. And as far as friendship, even WS, no matter how badly they have acted, deserves to have a friend, and if everyone else has turned their back because of what they've done, who else is left to be a friend? We are. Because I guarantee that if they would turn to Jesus, He would definitely be their friend.

I keep hearing that adultery is the only case for divorce according to the Bible and I believe this text is being taken out of context, IMHO. The following is taken from the book of Matthew in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. - 7They said to him, ‘Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?’ 8He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity , and marries another commits adultery.’
What Jesus was saying is that Moses was the one who allowed people to divorce in the first place because human beings' hearts were so full of spitefulness & bitterness. But according to God, the ultimate authority who created marriage, He never wanted it to be that way. He distinctly says two different words here - UNCHASTITY and ADULTERY. Unchastity means not being pure, or a virgin when they would marry and adultery means having an affair after being married. So what Jesus was telling the Pharisees was that unless they found out that their wife was not a virgin (like Joseph thought of Mary at first), then they needed to stay married to her. If he did not, and divorced her and married another woman, they would have been considered committing adultery on their former wife. This shows the bond that God unites man & wife with is till DEATH. That is the ONLY way you can be released from that bond.

Now, while I believe that separation is sometimes necessary to heal from a broken state or for God to reach someone's heart, I don't believe that person necessarily has to divorce in order to be happy again or to gain their self-respect. Sometimes, yes, self-respect goes down the tubes when married to an abuser, for example, and in this case, separation is definitely needed in order for God to reach the abuser! However, what God has joined together, let no MAN separate, and the laws of this country were created by MEN.

That brings another point to consider - What GOD has joined together....Does God unite every man & wife? I don't believe so. Sometimes people are so quick to choose someone, to "fall in love", they do not allow God to bring the right person into their life. They think they know who is right for them, but is this the one God KNOWS is right for you? It is very important that we commune with God daily & really keep in contact with Him about His will for us.

With both those things being said, I believe that if you have let GOD choose your mate for you, then you shouldn't divorce but allow God to work on you & your mate so you can come together again in a God-centered union. If, after much soul-searching & prayer, you don't believe you let God bring your mate to you but rather took it upon yourself to choose who you're going to be with, than you need to ask for forgiveness for this to begin with, not allowing Him to decide your mate for you & let Him show you what you should do.

I don't know, sometimes He gives us 2nd chances after screwing up in our decisions, for example, having a spouse take someone back after cheating or abuse or whatever. Why would marriage be any different? Maybe sometimes He allows a divorce to happen, shakes His finger at us saying, You should have listened to me and then give you a 2nd chance to be with the person HE chose for you.

Sorry if I'm ranting & rambling on, but when I read what Anyname said, it just struck me & I had to say something. Of course, this is JMHO & no one has to agree with me.

As far as thinking of ourselves, well, isn't that exactly what the WS have done? Thought of themselves only & not the BS? Thinking of ourselves first will only create strife, not love & we are all called to love others more than ourselves. And as far as friendship, even WS, no matter how badly they have acted, deserves to have a friend, and if everyone else has turned their back because of what they've done, who else is left to be a friend? We are. Because I guarantee that if they would turn to Jesus, He would definitely be their friend.

Standingtogether, first of all, I need to apologize to the originator of this post as this may be out of context of the original intent. However, the commentary that Standingtogether provides in response to biblical grounds for divorce is partly correct and partly right. Yes, God intended for men and women to be monogamous. That once they became one they should not be separated. That is totally correct. Divorce after finding out that the wife was unchaste was also true. Joseph and Mary had not yet married. They were engaged, but that was a very serious commitment at that time. He was adviced by an angel that although she was expecting a child, she was still pure. Adultery is dealt with in other sections and is not only grounds for divorce but also is listed among the sins that would keep a person from entering the kingdom of heaven. Under the old law, adulterers and those who were with another man's wife were stoned to death outside the city gates. God destroyed two cities for sexual immorality. When Jesus died on the cross, the old law was done away. It is good that this practice was done away with otherwise I am afraid what our city gates may look like.

The problem today is that "fornication is OK and adultery is OK". Churches have become soft and no longer preach on the seriousness of sexual inmorality because of the fear of being "politically incorrect" and potentially drive away members. Sin is sin and there are no shades of gray.

Not ALL CHURCH'S but certainly some... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

God knew the hearts of man....he knew the sins that he would do. Actually he does today.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And the thing he knew also was that some M's could NOT recover from was A.....

That is why A is also in the 10Commandments! BUT....God CAN and will forgive a sinner when they have true repentance in their hearts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am so greatful for that! I couldn't see myself in eternity without my Husband... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

God is good.....He does allow D for A but does not LIKE D....he just knew the human heart and knew that not all could heal. Hence:D

Blessings,
Atruheart

The Bible is open to interpretation. All you can do is look at the general picture. The old law was done away with, and replaced by two new laws, to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. (the new rules are a simple version of the old rules) However, given it was the same God who sactioned stonning of adulterers, one is inclined to think that adultery was considered a sin deserving of death. Now, God places a very high value on life, in the Bible and he introduced stonning for adultery, so one can be forgiven for thinking that God has zero tolerance of adulterers.

For myself, I do not believe in Christianity. I prefer to decide what is right and wrong for myself. I think adultery is a terrible act of cruelty and dishonesty. It is up to me to decide whether I can live with a partner who treats me in this way. Anyone who can genuinely forgive is a wonderful person IMO. I don't think I am a wonderful person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyname,

The old law was done away with, and replaced by two new laws, to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. (the new rules are a simple version of the old rules)

Actually, the old law was never abolished (meaning the 10 commandments). The new commandments Jesus had given were in ADDITION to the first 10. Yes, they pretty much summed up the 10 commandments, but Jesus told his disciples that he was giving them a NEW commandment, not REPLACING any.

Now, God places a very high value on life, in the Bible and he introduced stonning for adultery, so one can be forgiven for thinking that God has zero tolerance of adulterers .

I don't believe so. If he had ZERO tolerance for adulterers, he would not have made David as the head of the family of God's son, Jesus. David was an adulterer AND a murderer. And Jesus' most respected female disciple was Mary Magdelene - a well-known harlot & adulteress.

It's amazing how God can use the most awful sinner to do His work, isn't it?

Anyone who can genuinely forgive is a wonderful person IMO. I don't think I am a wonderful person

I take this to mean that you're not capable of forgiveness? I don't believe ANYONE is capable of GENUINELY forgiving. We need to ask for help in this department, especially when we've been hurt beyond anyone's comprehension. I pray that you develop the ability to forgive because when you wrong someone & have not forgiven someone else for their wrongdoings, then you should expect to remain unforgiven as well.

Atruheart,

God CAN and will forgive a sinner when they have true repentance in their hearts.

This isn't necessarily so. Jesus had asked for God to forgive those that put Him on the cross and they NEVER asked for forgiveness. They probably never thought they did anything wrong.