</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> Is this post an example of the slow tortuous death WAT was talking about....

cause I'm changing my answer real soon..even if I can eat chocolate the whole way...

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">could be, could be.... I know it is giving me a headache.

consider this ark though...what is life?

nothing more than a long death...the torturous part varies, but definitely kicks in periodically.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:
<strong> :barf: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hope you are feeling better today.

nsso.. I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

sufdb....as I recall snl commented that thinker had been threatening divorce for years, and he finally believed her...and was just waiting for her to move on (he had religious issues, else would have agreed).

nsso.. Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

sufdb...my guess is she would have reacted almost the same. Thinker presents as an extremely reactive, rule oriented individual, and rarely if at all self-introspective. She also clearly manufactures "cause" even if none present, the affair was convienient, but not essential to a victim strategy. Had she instituted a pre-marital divorce, maybe gone reasonably well (affair or not on her part, would have made no difference to snl, who is motivated by future considerations, not past ones), but if snl had filed for divorce, thinker would have responded aggressively, she always does when presented with something she does not agree with.

nsso...But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage.

sufdb...Thinker has had ample opportunity to "examine"...heck snl said he had moved out of the bedroom 5 years previous, didn't seem to faze her at all, she never expressed any plan or concern about this lifestyle.

nsso...The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

sufdb...exactly, she totally squandered the best chance of her life to change...opting instead to reinforce her victim mentality. A 100% emotional reaction, and why we should NOT respond to crisis emotionally, but exercise concious choice...something harley and MB advocate constantly.

nsso...So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

sufdb...probably...but since no one sets out to deliberately have a marital crisis, you have to play the hand you are dealt...which is why I regularly advocate against emotional assesments of your life alone......and get trashed for it just as regularly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I consider it a public service, and how I give back to the board...someone has to do this

nsso...psst. now watch nsso, I will be accused of being a knowitall better than everyone arrogant sob...

Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:

" Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day."

[b]OMG... are you saying that an A is the result of the WS NOT problem-solving with integrity ... therefore further ~complicating~ a marriage already in trouble?????

Therefore the WS ~missed~ a learning opportunity... that being, problem solving without inflicting unnecessary pain onto two already hurting people?

sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... however, affairs are not "solutions" they are events, they happen for reasons not including decideing to have an affair cause my marriage isn't working...come on pep, you know this.....marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it...a big difference.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sufdb's response to ark when asking if this entire post is the "slow torturous death" WAT was referring to:

could be, could be.... I know it is giving me a headache.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">According to you sufdb, your headache must be self-inflicted pain, so why don't you simply will it away.

Wait, instead, maybe endure it as I'm sure it's also a great opportunity to learn and grow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb wrote:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it ...a big difference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ummmm, are you sure you want to write that?

So, your affair was not your choice? It just happened to you?

WOW, so a person can choose not to feel stuff like emotions, again according to you, but they have no CHOICE when it comes to participating in an affair cause it just happens to them.

This is definitely a SNL-ism. No question.

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome,

Thank you. I agree.

Isn't that exactly what the poll results showed? Divorce is preferable to an affair?

Pep

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome,

Thank you. I agree.

Isn't that exactly what the poll results showed? Divorce is preferable to an affair?

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the poll was a differnet thing, about what would can do with something life hands you...

It seems folks are mixing up the experience of life with choices about life....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....I suppose one can "choose" the behavior that predisposes an affair, but that begs the question of how does one know to do this if they have no experience/training/whatever in recognizing one? You don't choose an affair, you choose to end it.

Would any one agree to an affair? NO

Usually only one person wants a divorce, but at least, the requester of the divorce does not lower than integrity or morals by having an affair.

But what is the overall benefit of this poll - obviously every BS would request a DV instead of an affair - regardless of any "growth experience".

....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....

~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you feeling alright?

I'm a little worried about you.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by sufdb:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it...a big difference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suf,

Since you are allegedly quoting or even paraphrasing the "Harley's", I am requesting you cite your resource for the above. Please tell us where the Harley's wrote the above or has said it.

res, a headache is actually physical condition, and can be treated with medication....but indeed you can grow from it....and I have grown alot, much of it due to particpation on MB.


sufdb wrote:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it ...a big difference.[/QUOTE]

res..ummmm, are you sure you want to write that?

So, your affair was not your choice? It just happened to you?

sufdb...there is an element of chance in most things that happen to folks... but I am a believer in owning behavior, and I own mine...the affair would not occur if I did not act to further it....regardless of how innocent the initial contact was....but I suspect I would not have been as likely to be in that circumstance had I been in a safe/healthy/nurturint/joyous marriage....or had I known now what I know about affairs.

res...WOW, so a person can choose not to feel stuff like emotions, again according to you, but they have no CHOICE when it comes to participating in an affair cause it just happens to them.

sufdb...you must have missed the part (today) where I ""chose"" to listen to my emotions and therefore continued on with the affair, even though I knew I should not be doing that.
Anyways, you misquote me, I have never said you can choose not to have emotions, that is silly....what you choose is how to act on those emotions....and I advocate a lot more control in that regard than many seem able or willing to do...and I wonder about that sometimes...and that concept is often in my postings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayed by 2:
<strong> Would any one agree to an affair? NO

Usually only one person wants a divorce, but at least, the requester of the divorce does not lower than integrity or morals by having an affair.

But what is the overall benefit of this poll - obviously every BS would request a DV instead of an affair - regardless of any "growth experience". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but not everyone did.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> ....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....

~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you feeling alright?

I'm a little worried about you.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, ok some people choose an affair (but I am not talking about them)...but you tell me, how does one differentiate between a new friendship and an EA if one has no idea what an EA is?.....eventually the friendship has sufficient recognizable characteristics to be labeled an affair...at that point, one continues on, or not....by choice, but it is allready happened...so you are really decideing to stop or not....not choosing to start an affair...right?

<small>[ May 28, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by sufdb:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it...a big difference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suf,

Since you are allegedly quoting or even paraphrasing the "Harley's", I am requesting you cite your resource for the above. Please tell us where the Harley's wrote the above or has said it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read all the harley stuff and have no idea where anything about anything can be found, nor do I have any interest in researching the location of those understandings...but if I am wrong about this, I am sure someone will correct me....are you suggesting they don't think everyone is capable of an affair under the right circumstances?

suf,

Thank you for the long response and consideration of my thoughts...as well as the risk you took to talk about the past. Not sure how good of an idea that was....but appreciate it just the same.

I have something I wanted to send you if you trust me enough to email me. starfish4729@hotmail.com

I said ... are you alright?

Do you feel OK?

Pep

Not-so-Silent-Observer: Who used the word psychopath? Certainly not I and nor do I think that. I used the word "bitter" and yes I think repeatedly saying that your ex will burn in Hell when he dies or that he's Satanic or constantly talking about the "whore" who he had an A two years post divorce with qualifies as "bitter" not psychopathic, the two are not synonymous.

Orchid: Nsso, I apologize for leading you to think I was directing those thoughts to you. I did not address my response to you but understand how you may have thought so. If you read it again, you will find that I address S (sufdb) and 'all'. Not once did I single you out. I used your post as a quote since you brought up the subject of SNL & thinker. Your thoughts entriqued me since you spoke of those 2 in such a familar manner.

In regards to the description of 'psycopath', that was how I described S when he speaks of his xw. It is definitely a bitter thing to have one spouse who has an A and the other is made to look like the scapegoat. I asked SNL in the past (and even subdf) that if his W was as bad as he had said, why didn't he D her earlier? If he knew it as early as he claimed he did, why didn't he exit before the history became more defined? They lived most of their lives together than apart. Now his W does feel that he felt that strongly, he should have released her sooner. Knowing that he kept her until now, makes her angry as if he wanted to use her until she was not worth it to him. Does that sound familar? That WS mentality. If someone did that to us, how would we feel? Do we have a right to be bitter or have an A?

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

Orchid: You didn't. S/SNL has implied it for years. One of his excuses for carrying on the A as long as he has. S has said that A's are not a choice, it just happens. Wonder what other type of crime upon the family can use the same excuse. The inference was not to you unless you know more.

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I'm not at all duped by S, I can read their old exchanges for myself and draw my own conclusions from what is posted in them. To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people.

Orchid: The reference was not addressed to you but to 'all'. Good for you and all others who are not duped but many who have come aboard later are not familar with the trauma and drama carried on both on and off MB. If you read their 'old exchanges' you are familar with the various names both have used.

Your statement: "To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people. "

This is quite an interesting statement. Who would have had the better wake up call?

Is there a chance that the continuing A has distorted reality for both of them or just 1 of them?

How do you think yourself or others feel if they found out that someone they had come to trust had betrayed that trust under the disguise of another character?

It is starting to look like we are all being made victims of an A. Kinda scary isn't it?

Those questions are not meant just for you. I have pondered the same for a while.

I could get very hurt by how S attempted to defame my character. Hm.... I've seen WS do that to their spouses. Attacking another BS in such a manner is the next step. Well, I c/b crushed to the core but I am not. Neither am I the 300lb travestite/embezzler that he described earlier today. Also, I am also not lesbian that was having an A with FIL as PBR attempted to describe me (PBR was the OW I had to deal with). But if it makes him feel better to discredit my character, then you gotta wonder why.

Communication can be a useful tool or a dangerous weapon. How can you tell when the tool is used as a weapon?

L.

Whatever the results of the poll or despite the response to the same....WTF and WhoTF cares? Each cirumsstance needs to be addressed between the participating parties.

Take your poll and shove it......it serves no other purpose than to stroke your personal indulging ego stroking purpose.

Stop your obsessive self-absorbing mind-**** and get on with life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
[QB] sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, even you agree with the results of the poll, that divorce would have been better than your having the affair? Then what is the point here?