</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
[QB] sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, even you agree with the results of the poll, that divorce would have been better than your having the affair? Then what is the point here? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The initial point of any poll was to find out stuff using a fairly ridgid format, from that effort (usually) flows comment, discussion, such as you see here. That is the point kam, illumination, understanding, information to incorporate into decsion making....for the most part, (except for a few people who get their kicks trashing someone they don't like, or displacing their own lives onto someone else), that is proceeding well....I can only speak for myself, but I am finding this useful as I try to understand why people (including myself) do what we do, or how we experience life emotionally. Since I place much greater emphasis on proaction(figuring out stuff and acting)..than reaction (feeling things, and responding accordingly), since that is not common, it helps me better understand (and therefore be less likely to feel anger, or that I am being rejected/agressed..for example). Likewise, maybe all you emotional types, can gain some insight into the mental processes of the more rational oriented people in your lives, and be less likely to think they don't care, or are judgemental (which makes you angry/rejected)...it also illustrates temperament, and why if the gap between the two life strategies is too great, it is very unliklely you can have a healthy relationship. There will be constant pressure to "change" the other one. This is clear here, I absolutely infuriate a certain type of person, I suspect they are driven mostly by emotions....I have almost no problems with others here who process life as I do...and are driven by a need to absolutely understand themselves, and others.

I find it so interesting (and occassionally funny) how supposedly "logical" people here argue emotionally, but yet get rude/upset/insulting. It used to confuse me, but my time spent on MB has been well vested, as this is a melting pot of all temperaments, and I have really had my eyes opened alot. It is unfortunate (for us both) I married a highly reactive individual, we stress and misunderstand each other to the max. I cannot understand why she always viewed me as the enemy, or felt interrogated, when I was only talking, trying to problem solve or whatever, and would say the most awful (rejecting) things to me, and think nothing of it....I know now she probably thinks she is being helpful, and is arguing with me as emotional people do, but I cannot understand her, I don't know what she is saying, and I don't know how to argue that way, and I don't want too....and she does not want to "figure" stuff out, and questions like why be married, or what is love, or why do you focus on the op, drive her crazy, and she feels attacked...we might as well be speaking foreign languages to each other....I don't think we actually have any idea who each other really are...I don't think we can....that use to really upset me, but over the years slowly but surely as we cooperated with our one area of mutual need (raising our kids, whom we both love immensely), I came to understand our differences were irreconcileable...and I should have cooperated with her in her desire for divorce....she "felt" the truth faster than I "figured" out the truth.

anyways, this process, of seeking understanding is the basic "point".... for everyone, including you. What is not ok, is trashing people who are struggling (as happens often to me) just cause they are struggling the way YOU struggle, or cause you don't understand their temperament, so "feel" they are dangerous to you...why do you suppose people trash those whose behavior they don't like? Instead of just letting them be. Like geezlouise above, nothing useful, just a gratuitious slam, I suppose to make her feel better about herself at my expense, why do you think people do that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I said ... are you alright?

Do you feel OK?

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"feel" huh, no I do not feel ok, but I feel better than I have for years. I am still situationally depressed (medicate with chocolate), and struggle with guilt (and not for "those" reasons)...I have learned I am hyperresponsible, and have immense difficulty in NOT "feeling" responsible for everyone in my purview. But the truth will set you free, and I will be ok, albeit scarred up some. What prompted you to ask this?

orchid...In regards to the description of 'psycopath', that was how I described S when he speaks of his xw. Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?


sufdb...you said orchid..."""Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?""""

That is taking extreme libeties under the guise of analyzing, and suggests a different agenda. I do not characterize my exw that way, and in fact mostly just state the facts, which stand on their own. But clearly, "labeling" someones comments as identifying their spouse as a psychopath works to reducing their credibility...was that your purpose? You asked a question (you refer to, and I did you the courtesy of an answer), now you twist it around to suit your argument, I consider that inappropriate, and revealing of some other purpose. "Current lifestyle" what the heck is that supposed to mean? You mean working my butt off, taking care of my kids needs (and often the exw as well, despite the unceasing vitriol), working on my own recovery/growth, taking care of my mom, and rarely speeding, and paying ALL my support monies (as well as extras), you mean that current lifestyle? Why wouldn't that be well thought of? My kids are exteremely intelligent, and they are all adults, who have observed their mother for years....everyone of them will tell you I have done nothing but try to convince them their mother loves them, and does not mean the things she does (verbally and emotionally) to them, other than, that her issues with them have nothing to do with me, and I certainly have not turned them against her....

o..It is definitely a bitter thing to have one spouse who has an A and the other is made to look like the scapegoat.

sufdb...How do you come up with this baloney.
"scapegoat" how so, the facts speak for themselves re all our marital circumstances, including mine. And I (like any responsible person) have taken full responsibility for my actions, including decideing to marry (despite promises made and not kept) which obligates me to proivide appropriately for my exw, responsbility for my affair (which means I accepted an appropriate amount of verbal abuse without complaint), and my divorce, which despite my exw filing, I had no objection too, and say so (so as not to make it all about being her choice).

o...I asked that if his W was as bad as he had said, why didn't he D her earlier? If he knew it as early as he claimed he did, why didn't he exit before the history became more defined?

sufdb...ya know, what is your point? You know the answer, it is the same answer for everyone....THE KIDS....

o.. They lived most of their lives together than apart. Now his W does feel that he felt that strongly, he should have released her sooner.

sufdb...my wife was told many times when she requested divorce, fine, do it...but I will not cause it violates our relgious beliefs. She said she would, but was concerned about finances. No mystery orchid, all the cards were on the table. It was her call.

o...Knowing that he kept her until now, makes her angry as if he wanted to use her until she was not worth it to him.

sufdb...keep? Like a horse or something....my exw had no freewill? No responsibility for her circumstances? Can just be as abusive and neglectful as she wants, and expect no consequences? What world do you live in? She was free to go anytime, and she knew I was extremely unhappy and disillusioned with the marriage. I had no obligation to locate a crystal ball which would reveal my (or her) future behavior, she was a full partner in the dysfunction of our marriage, and therefore in it's failure, I will not let that be placed on my shoulders alone.

o...Does that sound familar? That WS mentality. If someone did that to us, how would we feel? Do we have a right to be bitter or have an A?

sufdb...no one has a right to bitterness, what an ignorant notion. Mentality? You mean truth has a mentality to it....then I want that mentality, I much prefer to deal in truth, facts, and such in resolving relationships....and I did. My exw knew exactly where I was emotionally, cause unlike many males, I am very verbal, and revealing of my emotional state....she knew everything, it just didn't make any difference to her.

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

Orchid: You didn't. he has implied it. One of his excuses for carrying on the A as long as he has.

sufdb...That is a bald faced lie. I never said/implied any such thing, and in fact said repeatedly (and do so again now) NO ONE ever deserves bad treatement...We are ALL responsible for our actions, and if we treat someone bad (as does happen) we need to apologize and/or make appropriate ammends (for our own well-being as much as anything)...perhaps you confused over natural consequences...which in fact one does "deserve".


Your statement: "To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people. "

This is quite an interesting statement. Who would have had the better wake up call?

sufdb...In my case, being presented with divorce papers would have been a relief, having this hang over your head for years is he**. There was no wakeup call for me, I had come to understand nothing would ever change because of the nature of the temperaments involved (although I had not yet been educated to those things). You need to understand the nature of giving up for a rational individual....I had concluded I had done everything I could, and was done, just keeping house and raising kids, and staying out of her way...that was all I was doing, and would have welcomed a divorce as a release from my vows (that was the real issue for me, along with the kids). She had thorougly convinced me there was nothing I could do to become desireable in her eyes, or make her happy, that in fact I was the source of all that was wrong for her in life....I disagreed with that idea, but recognized I could not change her mind....I was the classic walkaway wife (just wrong gender).

o...Is there a chance that the continuing A has distorted reality for both of them or just 1 of them?

sufdb...Excuse me? More character assasination? What continuing affair? First I am single, and have been seperated/divorce well over 2 years...As for the affair, it lasted about 3 months (after crossing into EA), and a few months of withdrawal as it ended for good. I wanted nothing to do with affair relationships, that was my one and only, and there will not be a repeat. I regret that one, but I did use it as a learning experience, and will only seek relationships with single people, if I so decide....and I will do so with whoever I please, regardless of their history, bs, ws, op, or none of above....is my choice.

o...It is starting to look like we are all being made victims of an A. Kinda scary isn't it?

sufdb..what is scarey is this trip through the twilight zone...what is your goal here? Ya know, maybe life is just what it is, no need to concoct elaborate convoluted scenarios....people get married, they have issues, and they divorce...happens all the time.

o...I could get very hurt by how S attempted to defame my character. Hm.... I've seen WS do that to their spouses. Attacking another BS in such a manner is the next step. Well, I c/b crushed to the core but I am not. Neither am I the 300lb travestite/embezzler that he described earlier today.

sufdb... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I see, so ok to trash my character, but heaven forbid I even use a clear analogy to chastise you. Not gonna fly orchid, give it a rest.

o...Also, I am also not lesbian that was having an A with FIL as PBR attempted to describe me (PBR was the OW I had to deal with). But if it makes him feel better to discredit my character, then you gotta wonder why.

sufdb...yep, and you might look in the mirror and ask that very question.

something has got your goat, but frankly, while I am still inclinded to give you the benefit of the doubt re your good intentions...your actions are not helpful, not even remotely accurate. You do not understand me or my marriage very well, and your continuing effort to suggest I am either very confused, or maliciously motivated (depending on which way the wind was blowing when you post I guess....those seem to be your 2 favorite theories) both serve no purpose but to further my exw notion she is a victim, and reduces the likelihood she will recover. Please stop.

What I wonder the most about this thread is why is this WS [the poll author] here at MB still posting.

Unlike the members here who are trying to marriage build or get over a divorce they desperately did not want, he [sufdb] got what he wanted, a divorce and OW. Why is he still here posting? Makes ya wonder doesn't it.

I would have thought he'd be moving-on with his OW living happily ever after. It's baffling to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> What I wonder the most about this thread is why is this WS [the poll author] here at MB still posting.

Unlike the members here who are trying to marriage build or get over a divorce they desperately did not want, he [sufdb] got what he wanted, a divorce and OW. Why is he still here posting? Makes ya wonder doesn't it.

I would have thought he'd be moving-on with his OW living happily ever after. It's baffling to me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....perhaps you are confusing me with someone else...I stopped my affair, have no interest in another one (or intend to mess with married women)...ever, and have no "ow" either real of blow-up...

As to why I participate here, have answered that often, but what the hey, do it again. Because marital psychology interests me, I want to know as much about it as I can for my own well-being, and so I can mentor my kids about marital matters as successfully as possible. Why the continuing driveby shots at me jo? Have I done something to you? Or am I standing in for displaced anger....once again. Believe it or not, I am an individual with value and worth too, have a life, good points and bad points, hopes and dreams and problems, and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from...this place helps in all these regards... as it does for everyone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....perhaps you are confusing me with someone else</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Good lord.

Then why do you keep answering questions regarding SNL, and speaking for him (i.e., as if you are him)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf wrote:
and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, normally I would be quite compassionate and express empathy for your grief, I really would. But as you have stated on this very thread "all your pain is self inflicted, YOUR CHOICE."

<small>[ May 29, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf wrote:
and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, normally I would be quite compassionate and express empathy for your grief, I really would. But as you have stated on this very thread "all your pain is self inflicted, YOUR CHOICE." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I need to send you a telegram or something...you don't seem to read what I say very well here...

I did not say what you quoted, but what I do say is emotions are real, are not right or wrong, and need to be dealt with.....what you do have control over is how you choose to deal with your emotions....I think I am dealing with mine in a very healthy manner. I do not seek sympathy particularly...and empathy is not something you give, it is something you experience, what I seek is understanding, and I am finding it.

btw..I said cofusing me with someone else, because whoever I am here is irrelevant...what counts is real life...and this real life person does not believe in affairs, will not engage in one, and therefore has no ow. Although I will always have been a ws, I am not now, nor ever will be again an om...capish?

<small>[ May 29, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Locking, copy sent to moderator storage.