TB,

I like not having to wonder what kind of mood he's in, and walking around on egg shells cuz you never knew what would set him off or when. I don't miss the name calling, the disrespect, or the cruelty of his actions and words. And I don't believe that he would ever be anything but those things. And that is why I chose to end my M. That and the fact that he refused to end his A and is still currently living with the OW.

Wow, I'd almost think my WH was at your place when he wasn't at mine!! You've described my marriage pretty well.

My only concern (and actually I should be happy because it's in his best interests) is that I do think I may see an end coming to his A. I think he realizes that she's not a good choice because she has nothing, and I think perhaps she's seeing the same thing in him since he totaled his truck and only has a motorcycle to drive.

If he ends his A, I worry that I will feel obligated to take him back when in fact, right now it sounds more appealing to keep him as a friend but keep him at arm's length (and not have to be aroud his "moods" on a daily basis).

I'll just keep praying for answers. Hopefully God is very clear with them. The last time I prayed that God would make things clear, WH totaled his truck. I'm still trying to figure out what that meant.

And I am NOT offended by your advice regarding my DD. I know I am too lenient, and I don't like that about myself. I give up too easily to keep the peace. You're right, its what I've done for years with WH and I do allow my DD to do the very same thing to me. DS does it, too, but his personality and mine are very similar--more serious and caring--so he tends to take my feelings into consideration before he acts most of the time.

LL

LL-

Please do not despair. Keep coming along side your daughter. I went through the same thing. I turned 18 on Friday, and left home the following Monday. I have never been back home. At least until this week.

However, I now love my parents. I now realize that they were doing the best they could. And I was doing the best I could. So hang in there with your daughter.

LL,

Your posts look like you are heading for a pleasant and peaceful weekend. Hang in there for you!

I can relate to so much of your indecision. I am afraid that when my situation comes back to a head again I will no longer have the desire to press ahead even if by some remote chance she does agree to quit the OM and the drinking.

Now...run out and get that steak and get ready for the peaceful Sunday afternoon on the deck!!

Hey there, LL.

I wanted to say that I've been thinking about you and DD and praying for you too. Every time I read your posts about her, it brings back my own childhood and I want to cry for you and especially for her. I still feel like there is some good advice stored up in me as far as this situation is concerned, but I'm still trying to dig it out. Based on my experience, the wrong advice could lead to some pretty horrid and far reaching consequences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for your H, keep being strong. Keep growing. It may not seem like it, but he is watching you. Evaluating. He may not even know he is, but he is. The stronger you get, the more you will be setting an example and setting the stage for your future.

I got this weird feeling that you should have a date with him. Go out and do something fun with him. Stay away from the TV and avoid all relationship talk. I think this would be a very powerful move on your part.

As for the truck totalling... I too prayed for some guidance/wisdom from God and received it in the form of a wrecked truck. It was my bosses truck and as I drove down the road, and older lady fell asleep at the wheel and veered right into me. Being a pretty good driver, I managed to avoid a head on. Neither me nor the guy I was with were wearing seatbelts and had it been a head on, I'm sure we'd have both sustained considerable damage. The truck was trashed.

Gods message to me was about trust.

Most roads up here in the country are 2 lanes. 1 lane going each way, separated only by a painted yellow line. Vehicles travel about 50mph hour each way, missing each other by less than a couple of feet. When you think about it, you realize that a violent death passes you by every time you get on the road. We learn to trust others to stay in their lane and not cross over into ours.

The thing is, sometimes they do cross over.

The message occured to me after the accident as I relearned to trust other drivers. The similarities with my situation became clear and I feel that was Gods lesson to me.

If you want to drive, you have to trust. Sometimes that trust gets betrayed and bad things happen. So you have a choice. On one hand you can decide not to drive, thereby eliminating the chance of an accident. But the consequence of that is you have to stay home alone and you can never 'go anywhere' in your life. On the other hand, if you learn to trust (aware that you may end up getting smoked) you can live your life and move forward.

Funny, I've spent quite a bit of time thinking on this and yet trying to put it into words, I'm not sure that I'm getting across how profound the message and lesson was...

Oh well, that'll teach me to post before finishing my second coffee...

Anyway, ttfn. You all are in my thoughts and prayers.

dewt

Burtonzoo,

I can relate to so much of your indecision. I am afraid that when my situation comes back to a head again I will no longer have the desire to press ahead even if by some remote chance she does agree to quit the OM and the drinking.

That's where I'm afraid I am. Okay, if he quit the OW AND the drinking AND sought help for his anger AND gave up the internet porn surfing AND quit refusing to go back to our church AND deleted the "F" word from casual speech and phone text messages AND truly make me believe that he wanted to work on our marriage because he wanted to be with ME and not just because he was financially going to pieces, then MAYBE.......
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Steak on the deck, huh? Wish I had a deck. It's one of those goals that never happened. I have a 10'x10' concrete slab that came standard with the house when it was built. Always wanted to break it up and do an old-fashioned brick patio, but they're VERY expensive! So it's the slab and a gas grill and the Weber right now. Not even any patio furniture.

But the steak sounds good! I might have to go buy one myself, and grill some asparagus, and pick up my teeny bottle of vino to go with it. Sounds mighty nice!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dewt,

I read your thread about problems with minidewt. Tough situation. You are much better off if you can get a handle on it now as opposed to having him reach 14 and be like my DD.

I wish you the best with Dylan. May this be your chance to get the ball rolling on reconciliation if it's possible.

As for my WH and a "date", I know I should. But Dewt, my heart's not in it. I'm afraid it'd be leading him on and he'd believe that all's well and that his foot is almost back in the door.

I think I'm confusing him enough as it is with my "I love you and know we can have a good marriage" followed a few weeks later by "I'm not sure I want to stay married to you" to my mental breakdown a few days ago where I was hugging him at his shop and bawling like a baby to yesterday when I told him it was up to him if he called me this weekend.

I don't want to confuse him. I don't want to hurt him. I just don't want to keep getting hurt either. When I stay away like I am right now, life is very peaceful. It's lonely, granted. And I think a lot about him going to Hell and wonder if I'm supposed to be there to be his link to God and church and all until he finds his own way back. But for all the years we were together,it didn't get him to where he needed to be. Why would I think it would if I let him come back now?

I'm flying the kids to Florida in a little over a week. I've asked WH if he wants to "housesit" (against my better judgement) because the neighbor who usually is my helper is going to be gone with her family for 5 of my 7 days. I didn't have much choice--didn't want to have to find a housesitter (or pay for one) to take care of my mini-zoo.

I'm afraid that WH will see it as my invitation back home and will not want to leave when I get back. I've tried to "sell" it as helping me out(because he still feels he should in some sense) and giving him a break from living in the camper and having to drive almost an hour each way to work and back with gas prices as high as they are.

Right now, I'm just looking forward to the 7 days away (if the plane doesn't crash---I HATE FLYING!). I have to be on my best behavior, too. My kids have never flown before. So even if we go though a horrible thunderstorm and are lifting out of our seats, I have to sit there with a calm smile on my face. Wish me luck! Thunderstorms over Florida each afternoon are pretty much a guarantee this time of year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

LL

Hey LL, remember, it is not your old marriage you are trying to save. That one is gone. Dead. Over.

But he is the man you love, the father of your children and the man God gave to you as a husband. A new covenent with him is possible if only he will step up to the plate. Always keep in mind the finished product, the end result.

Remember what you are aiming for. And as this journey of YOURS continues the picture of the end result gets refined and more solid.

No woman in her right mind would want him as he is now. Just like no man in his right mind would want anything to do with my wife as she is right now. But that is not what we are aiming for.

Through Gods grace and the stregnth He gives us, WE improve and prepare the way for a better marriage should our spouses choose to return.

I think you are worrying too much about all this. God has a plan. It's His plan and we don't know what it is or where it will lead us. And it is not our place to know. It IS our place to follow his Word and play our parts in His plan though. So have faith in the Lord, do your bit and trust that He will see things through as He means them to be.

Oh yeah, have fun in Florida. Good luck on the plane.

dewt

Dewt,

I know I need to trust. I'm just really scared to. And I admit, being away from him for months has caused my love to be pretty scarce. I haven't gone to dinner with him since early January. Tried once in April--he promised all week and then got drunk and stood me up. I probably haven't even held a decent conversation with him in a couple weeks.

It's just that so many times in our M he's promised to do something major, like quit drinking or quit doing drugs recreationally or quit staying out so late, etc....and it's been good for maybe a few months and then he goes back to his old habits. And he promised the same things after his first A -- no more A's EVER. Okay, it did take him 12 years to find another OW, but it happened again. And it hurt twice as bad this time. He also shows a LOT less remorse this time. How long would it take for him to do it again?

I truly believe that unless he turns his life over to God, he won't change.

-------------------------------------------------

I heard nothing from him today. I did send two text messages, though both were basically "business". I guess they didn't really require a response.

But I put today to good use. I cleaned and rearranged my bedroom. It's always the last room in the house to get cleaned, and it's also the room where all the extra junk finds a temporary home. I still have a couple stacks of pictures and some storage boxes that need to go to the basement but it's so much better than it was.

I went out and picked up a wicker 4-drawer storage thingie to hide my papers, and stole a 3-shelf bookcase from DD's closet (she wasn't using it) and moved my bed and dresser around. I also finally got my stupid headboard attached so it doesn't fall off every time I bump it. (So much for the furniture store's easy-mount "floating headboard". It floats all right--right off the bed frame! I bolted the sucker on good and tight!!)

The room looks SOOOOO much better. And like my DS said, it looks much bigger, too. In fact, this arrangement makes it look bigger than it ever has in the 6 years I've lived here. It actually looks like a master bedroom now.

Once I get a couple sconces or a picture above my bed, and change the bedding to the new stuff I picked up on sale a while back, I think it'll be complete. Too bad I don't have anyone to share it with besides my two dogs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LL

LL, don't sweat it. Even Jesus, in the last moments had his issues. ("My God, why have you forsaken me?") But even though He may have had his doubting moments, he went forward. I believe He was sent here not only to die for our sins, but to set examples for us on how to live and behave.

It's ok to be scared. I believe faith is all about holding the course even when we are terrified. It's when we give in to the fear, and let it control our actions that we lose the battle.

Please remember that time changes things. His behaviour in April may not be an indication of what his actions will be now. And also, you gotta remember that you really have no control over his actions. Buuuut... by going on a few dates with him, you can start to set a scenario of good times together and at the same time give him some exposure to the 'new and improved' LL.

Don't worry so much about conversations! Just go out and have a good time. I think now is the time to start presenting him with an alternative to the hellish life he is living now. And I what I mean to say is present that alternative in a subtle way! Let him see that you still enjoy his company, that you still want to spend time with him, that there is something better waiting for him as soon as he gets his head out of his a$$. (gee, it felt good to say that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )

dewt

lordslady - Good for you! Look how much you are changing. That is what surprised me - like star says, I came here wanting WH to change, but instead, I am the one who changed.

LL, good for you. You really set a good example for me. I am learning so hard to detach. But WH is like a ghost hanging around, guess Plan B is the right one for him.

Dewt,

I know what you're saying makes sense, but I really don't even want to see him the way he currently is. If we did go out on a date, he'd be nervous and stressed. This means the first thing he'd do is order a drink if we're out to dinner. And then I'll get tense, because I don't want him drinking. But if I say anything about it, the "date" goes down the tubes (many, many experiences to base this on over his drinking years). And if I don't say anything about it, then I'm condoning it and it's okay and then I end up riding around with someone who has had too much to drink.

Sort of like the next to last time I rode the Harley with him. I asked if he'd take me for a ride, and he showed up a couple hours after the promised time (par for the course for him) and was in a hurry, so I jumped on. It was only when we were down the road and he was driving crazy that I realized he'd been drinking. By then all I could do was shut my mouth and try not to make him angry for fear he'd just get crazier to try and scare me.

I'm not even sure what we'd do if we went out. He's taken OW to most of "our" restaurants. I will NOT go down to mutual person's to play cards for the evening--don't care to ever go there again. Suppose we could see a movie or something.

I know he's feeling bad right now because kids and I are going to Florida in a week and he's not going, but I didn't see it as my responsibility to provide him a plane ticket with him in his current situation. I am hoping for a calmer vacation than we generally have because the kids and I will be a little more relaxed (I hope).

LNH & Believer,

I'm not sure I'm stronger or doing all that well. As you can see from my response to Dewt, rather than work on rebuilding my M right now, I'd rather avoid the whole deal. I don't want to put my heart out on the chopping block, but I think it means I'm a lot weaker than those of you who are really going through the pain and actively trying with your WH's.

I did have another accomplishment today. My car wouldn't start when I went to leave for church this morning. Borrowed DS's car for church, but had to figure out what to do with mine this afternoon because he needed his.

I didn't want to call WH and have him come fix it, so mustered up the nerve to ask one of our pastors if he could help me. He's sort of a Mr. Fixit type anyway. My battery died. He helped me figure out the battery charger and we got it going and I took it and made my very own battery choice and I should be good to go for another 5 years on this one.

I'm proud because I found my helper-resources all by myself and am mobile again.

Now I need to pay all my bills (something I'd LOVE to let someone help with because it's always been my job...). I'm really sleepy, though, so am going to take a little Sunday nap, and then go at it.

LL

Lordslady -

I see a lot of changes in you. It happens bit by bit over time, and you may not see them in yourself right away.

And no, I am not working on my marriage at all. Mostly I think I am done with WH.

One way to avoid the alcohol issue is to go someplace that doesn't serve alcohol. Movies would be good. Particuarly because a movie allows you to pleasant time with someone without actually engaging in conversation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you ever did go to a restaurant and he ordered drink, I'd advise you get up, very politely and lovingly excuse yourself for the evening and leave. Not pleasant, to be sure, but it would send a clear message and if you did it without getting angry or LBing, it would make a wonderful point. Heck, the date was going to go down the tubes anyways...

And ya, keep working on you. The better and more stable you get, the better your chances of saving your marriage. I'm starting to learn that chasing doesn't work. Getting myself fixed on my own, for my own self is a far surer, and more profound way of offering a better alternative to a WS than what they've thus far chosen. Plus, if you don't get 'em back, well, you still come out better off. No lose scenario.

Plus, I think now is the time to start putting your foot down on other things. Upon learning that he'd been drinking, I'd have gotten off and walked home. (I DO have BIG issues with DWI) A serious hassle, but it only has to happen once and then you've made a point in some serious ink. I'm no saint, but in my view, rendering my children parentless when I should have known better is about the worst, evilest sin I can think of.

Sorry he feels so bad. You can't cure all his ills. He's gotta face his own consequences. Hopefully he'll get to a point where he is ready to say enough is enough.

Anyway, take care.

dewt

LL, I know what you mean by not ready to put your heart on the chopping board. But our hearts have been chopped already. I like Dewt's suggestion about going out for a date. Don't put hope in it, just to have some fun.

I do enjoy being with WH. He was ok to me and nice to the kids. But I always have fear that he would disappear whenever with whomever. So I am still debating to myself that whether or when to go to Plan B. I need to pray harder.

Dewt and LNH,

I’m having problem with doing what I “should” do vs. doing what I want to do. I “should” want to put everything into saving my M as this is the person my covenant is with. I am angry and hurt and don’t want to because I’m tired of each time we speak, getting snapped at out of anger like his pain and suffering is my fault. I feel like if I ask him to a movie, he may interpret it as my letting down my guard and wanting him back in the house regardless of his behavior. At this point, I actually do not enjoy spending time with him. Too many visions in my brain and lots of hurt, and then his tense, angry attitude sort of clinches it for me. It is effort to be around him.
-----------------------------------------------

By the way, another issue I will have if we end up back together: He informed me that he will NOT ever go back to “THAT” church again (meaning that because I was bad and have spoke to people about what is going on with his A and drinking, he will not show his face back there). So, just one more thing—I’d have to start over at a new church again. I hate that. I hate changing. It takes me a long time to get comfortable. I’ve been at this one for 4 years. We changed churches 12 years ago, too, because of what was going on, and then had to leave that church because it was small and couldn’t survive, and it ended up merging with the church I currently attend.

I feel like by not going back, it will mean his heart hasn’t changed—if he can’t own his mistakes.

LL

And the rest of LL’s saga of the day...(written with an annoying headache even Advil and Mt. Dew won’t take away.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

DD left with friends as usual last night. Instructed to be home around 10pm. At midnight the first call comes (from MY cell phone, too, as she steals it out of my purse without my knowledge). She’s not with friend she left with but is with different friend who’s best friend was apparently just killed in an auto accident.

She’s trying to console other friend and can’t tell me when she’ll be home, can’t give me a last name or address so that I can come pick her up, can’t do anything. But of course, I just DON’T understand. I was angry—very angry. I would understand if it were just this special circumstance, but there's always an excuse. I think the headache was already coming on and I was grumpy. I used a few words I shouldn’t and normally don’t, because I’m annoyed that she constantly disobeys rules and curfews, she takes my phone without asking, and she pretty much runs loose.

Several calls back and forth and the next thing I know, WH on the other end of the ringing phone line. He is not happy, because he just got a call from DD asking him to call me and calm me down. He wants to know what’s up. I gave him the shortened version, he asked if all was under control, I told a semi-lie and said “yes”, and hung up.

On and off for the next three hours I get phone updates from DD, but no way will she come home or give up an address. Finally, the calls take a turn for the worse at 3am. She’s now with her boyfriend and they’re having issues and she’s crying.

At nearly 4am, I get a sobbing phone call, “Please come get me. I’m sorry I made you mad earlier. I’m sorry I took your phone.” Her wonderful boyfriend’s excuse is that he doesn’t have the gas to take her home. So I get sketchy directions to some park on the opposite side of town and off I go. Luckily I found it without much effort and had her in my car by 4:30am. (And luckily said boyfriend waited with her or I would have tracked his sorry a** down!)

She was also crying because she heard a motorcycle and it reminded her of her Dad’s. (She obviously wants Dad and I back together--more guilt for me. Is this my billboard from God?)

Gets much worse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> She’s crying in the car, trying to tell me what’s going on, and why she doesn’t understand what’s going on with her and boyfriend, and then I said it, “Well be thankful you’re not sleeping with him!”

Silence…..and a look that said it all….. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

She admitted she did. Not sure when. Several weeks ago. It hit me like a ton of bricks. My baby. The one thing I thought she had going for her and was strong-headed enough to stick by. It’s gone forever. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I am sick. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I can’t even think about it. It hurts just about as bad as the night WH slept with OW for the first time. Everything I believe and tried to hard to instill in my kids meant nothing. She’s the second of the two to do this. DS already sent his shock through my system several years ago.

DD also informed me that she doesn’t care about my stupid religious beliefs about sex before marriage, that she was ready, that it’s not what messed up their relationship, and she doesn’t even know if she believes God is real, so it really doesn’t matter. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I suck at parenting. My kids are out of control.

I suck at marriage. I have an alcoholic, drug-using (occasionally), angry, resentful, H who walked out on me for a 26-year-old wh**e, who did it because I was gone, the house wasn’t clean enough, and my kids were out of control, and who I know I should now try and take back because he's my husband.

So tell me how I now give up the identity I finally found in myself and become the submissive wife who is content just to have her family under one roof by the end of the night.

LL

LL,

I don't know what to say, so I'm just going to say a prayer for you right now.

You really have seen alot in these past few days. Hang in there girl.

Tony

I keep asking God to give me a billboard or something that tells me what I'm supposed to do, because I need something really big and clear to direct me.

I can't help but wonder if the happenings of the past week or so are my 'billboard', but it must be in a foreign language or something because I still can't figure it out. I'm more confused than I was before! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

Oh, LL. My heart goes out with you. My heart and head ache when i read about your DD. Please, LL, calm down, deep breath. I am praying for you. {{{{{{{LL}}}}}}

LL,

I know I have said this to you before, but I think you need to hear it again. There is no way you will get your marriage back if your H is still drinking. The Harley's won't even do marriage counseling with someone actively in an addiction. Your H has also given you the biblical out from the marriage.

His behavior and the break up of the marriage has hurt your children obviously, but I think it is time your reigned in your D. But, you must also realize there is only so much you can do. You can prevent her stealing you cell phone by keeping it on you all of the time. You can prevent her from stealing anything else by locking it up. It will send a deep message to her.

As for her sleeping with her boyfriend, I know you are crushed, and I also know that your DD has no idea what she has done and what she risks. It is sooooo sad. But there is little you can do but make sure if she does it she does take precautions and watches out for her health.

My point in all of this advice is take this one step at a time. Your H is lost as long as he is into the alcohol. There is nothing you can do or should do except perhaps move on when you are ready. HE has to hit bottom and address his issues with the Alcohol and that means AA or some similar program. He won't hit bottom and be worth having until he can face what he has done, and be able to face the people in your church and ask for forgiveness.

Your children will require some creative handling, and perhaps some counseling. It sounds as if your D is being strongly affected and needs some help right now.

All you can do is be consistent, be the rock for the children and realize that you have nothing left to do for your marriage until and unless your H gives up alcohol. So step back and relax a bit. It is out of your hands.

Must go, but do think about this please.

God Bless,

JL